Sulcata Photos from a Roadside Zoo

[shellysmom]

Saw these torts yesterday. Should I contact the facility with some suggestions for improvement? It's a pathetic little place, operating as a "sanctuary," but run on a shoestring budget by a retired circus family. They have lots and lots of animals crammed into a span of a few acres. Lions, tigers, bears, goats, birds, primates, and at least 6 sulcatas. Really sad, actually.

 

[dmmj]

I feel bad for all of those upside down animals, what a world.
The sulcata pen is indeed way to small, but how would you go about changing their minds?

 

[shellysmom]

i have no idea why the pics posted upside down. Let me try again...

 

[leonardo the tmnt]

They are small

 

[shellysmom]

I feel bad for all of those upside down animals, what a world.
The sulcata pen is indeed way to small, but how would you go about changing their minds?

Well, there's not much I can do for all of the big cats living in tiny cages, at this point, although I'm putting some information together to submit to ALDF, an organization that was just successful in getting a bear released from cage to a large enclosure at a real sanctuary.

I'm thinking, though, at the very least I could help them with the torts. They take donations and utilize volunteers, so maybe they'll let me help create decent hides, donate a couple of plants for shade and eating... The soil they are on is very sandy, so maybe add some cypress mulch and create a different water source that's easier to remove and clean. That one was absolutely filthy. The thing that gets me most about the enclosure size, though, is that the area of the property they are in, there's actually space to make an enclosure 3 times that size without it being in the way of anything, and they have hundreds of those cement blocks piled up everywhere, just waiting to be used for things. I don't understand why they didn't make it bigger, since they already have all of the space and materials they need. There was one more enclosure that had 3 larger sulcatas. They literally were climbing over each other trying to get through a portion of fence they could see through. I could see there was a big dip worn there, probably because that's where they spend all their time trying to escape such a horribly boring life. Heartbreaking.

---

Oh my god, I just realized the little "rock" propping up one side of the hide is a very small sulcata, lol. Jeez... One hide for 4 torts and no shade? Something has to get better. I'M ON IT, PEOPLE!!

 

[mattgrizzlybear]

Poor animals! Hope someone will eventually!

 

[CourtneyAndCarl]

I think the only "improvement" is going to be them giving up their animals. Those sulcatas look awful and their pen is ridiculously small.

 

[MichiLove]

That's ashame! They are way too cramped in that small area!

 

[Tom]

The ALDF is an animal rights group. Like PETA and the HSUS, they are the enemy of those who love and cherish their pets. Animal rightist are not your friends. They wish to ban "animal servitude" and prevent you from ever owning any pets. Even domestics like dogs.

If you wish to enlist the help of some organization, look for an Animal Welfare group. These organizations seek to improve the lives of poorly treated captive animals, but don't have hidden evil political goals that would seriously curtail our enjoyment of our animals. They don't use your money to kill animals like PETA. Instead they use it the way YOU intended them to use it, to HELP animals.

Erika, I think you are on the right track going to these people as a tortoise enthusiast and asking them to simply allow you to use the materials they already have on hand to make a much nicer, bigger habitat for these tortoises. THAT will be a "win win" for everybody!

 

[EricIvins]

I guess I'll be the bad guy again........

I see two, upside down pictures that don't show much of anything.......If you want to present a story, why not show the whole book instead of the front page? From what I can see, the animals have shade, water, and a pen that keep them confined. Just because it isn't overgrown with plants, or looks like some private keepers enclosures doesn't mean all that much.......

I also can't think of ONE Sulcata keeper that does not have a deformed animal......Am I a bad keeper because of that?

 

[shellysmom]

The ALDF is an animal rights group. Like PETA and the HSUS, they are the enemy of those who love and cherish their pets. Animal rightist are not your friends. They wish to ban "animal servitude" and prevent you from ever owning any pets. Even domestics like dogs.

If you wish to enlist the help of some organization, look for an Animal Welfare group. These organizations seek to improve the lives of poorly treated captive animals, but don't have hidden evil political goals that would seriously curtail our enjoyment of our animals. They don't use your money to kill animals like PETA. Instead they use it the way YOU intended them to use it, to HELP animals.

Erika, I think you are on the right track going to these people as a tortoise enthusiast and asking them to simply allow you to use the materials they already have on hand to make a much nicer, bigger habitat for these tortoises. THAT will be a "win win" for everybody!

Wow, Tom. I know ALDF is an animal rights group, that's exactly why I contacted them. There are laws that people with captive exotic animals must comply with in order to keep them in their care. If they are in violation of said laws, they should not have the animals. It's really quite simple, and I'm not beyond contacting anyone I need to in order to help wild animals living in tiny cages get better treatment. If you honestly have a problem with that, your moral compass needs to be recalibrated.

Also, as far as "PETA Kills Animals" goes, that was a website started by Rick Berman, the man who lobbies FOR tobacco companies, animal agriculture industries, and AGAINST teachers unions and Mothers against Drunk Driving. He works for the very people who exploit animals for money, and part of his job is to create hysteria among the general public that animal rights organizations want to take away everyone's rights to even own so much as a dog or cat. That's completely absurd. I worked for an Animal Rights organization for 5 years, and nothing we did was related to taking away the rights of anyone to own animals. Everything we did was in an effort to stop the worst types of animal abuses that occur in this country, including forcing beautiful wild animals to live in barren cages completely devoid of any stimulation, so all they can do is pace back and forth in frustration all day long. It has nothing to do with taking down AZA accredited Zoos, or GFAS accredited animal sanctuaries, or responsible pet breeders. It has everything to do with stopping the extreme suffering that is involved with breeding in puppy mills, and the horrid conditions found in hoarding situations, and other such situations. Usually, the only people who support Rick Berman and his "PETA Kills Animals" statements are people who use animals to make money. And, the kicker is, if those people are treating their animals well, then they have NOTHING to worry about. Don't buy into the hype Tom. Animal Rights organizations should not be viewed as "evil" by anyone except animal abusers.

 

[Zouave]

I'd try to help them out with advice and some elbow grease if they would accept it before reporting to any groups or authorities.

 

[shellysmom]

I'd try to help them out with advice and some elbow grease if they would accept it before reporting to any groups or authorities.

I would prefer to help with the tortoises, which is why I'm offering to donate time and money to improve their lives. I contacted ALDF for advice on how the other animals could be helped.

 

[Tom]

Erika, you are dead wrong. I fight these people everyday. They are trying to drive me and my peers out of business, they don't want you to have pets, and they use you money to buy fancy cars and houses while laughing at you about it. This is not hype. THis is first hand knowledge and I don't even know who Rick Berman is. It is not hype when PETA members light off M-80s so they can video the elephant handlers struggling to keep there animals from freaking out. Just the other day they were protesting a show that my friends and I work on. These people are top notch in the business and have better cared for animals than anybody. Yet PETA is trying to shut them down...

This debate has been had here many times before and I'm not going to spend any more time typing about it. Do a search and you'll see all the arguments pro and con. One thing I can tell you for sure is that if you keep giving money to and helping animal rights groups, you soon won't have a tortoise to talk about on any forum.

I'm all for improving the lives of your roadside tortoises, but not though the help of legal bullying that will likely bankrupt the people who are running this "rescue", while ignorant people with good intentions keep feeding the coffers of the animal rights lawyers so they can continue their crusade against you and me and everyone else who enjoys having pets.

 

[shellysmom]

I guess I'll be the bad guy again........

I see two, upside down pictures that don't show much of anything.......If you want to present a story, why not show the whole book instead of the front page? From what I can see, the animals have shade, water, and a pen that keep them confined. Just because it isn't overgrown with plants, or looks like some private keepers enclosures doesn't mean all that much.......

I also can't think of ONE Sulcata keeper that does not have a deformed animal......Am I a bad keeper because of that?

I said nothing about the deformity of that tortoise, because I'm sure it came to them that way. The tortoises do not have shade during the day. The shade you see is evening shade from the building next to them because it was almost 7:00pm when I was there. The hide is big enough for only 1 tortoise at a time, so they are exposed to direct sunlight during the majority of the day with no plants or burrows to escape the sun. The tiny bit of food in their enclosure was rotten and smelled, and their water source was growing algae, so I can only assume no one had cleaned it properly for a while. I took a lot more photos and videos, and have a lot more information about the condition of the other animals, such as some of the bears and tigers are missing fur on the back half of their bodies, and there are 40 goats kept in a tiny muddy stinky pen. I did not include details about those other animals because this is a tortoise forum, and I wanted to focus mainly on the tortoises. I'm sorry the photos were upside down. I have never had problems posting pics before, so I don't know what happened...

 

[Zouave]

PETA certainly doesn't encourage reptile ownership .....
http://www.peta.org/living/companion-animals/caring-for-reptiles.aspx

 

[Tom]

PETA certainly doesn't encourage reptile ownership .....
http://www.peta.org/living/companion-animals/caring-for-reptiles.aspx

I found this article appallingly inaccurate, but some of the comments that followed made some good sense.

 

[EricIvins]

I guess I'll be the bad guy again........

I see two, upside down pictures that don't show much of anything.......If you want to present a story, why not show the whole book instead of the front page? From what I can see, the animals have shade, water, and a pen that keep them confined. Just because it isn't overgrown with plants, or looks like some private keepers enclosures doesn't mean all that much.......

I also can't think of ONE Sulcata keeper that does not have a deformed animal......Am I a bad keeper because of that?

I said nothing about the deformity of that tortoise, because I'm sure it came to them that way. The tortoises do not have shade during the day. The shade you see is evening shade from the building next to them because it was almost 7:00pm when I was there. The hide is big enough for only 1 tortoise at a time, so they are exposed to direct sunlight during the majority of the day with no plants or burrows to escape the sun. The tiny bit of food in their enclosure was rotten and smelled, and their water source was growing algae, so I can only assume no one had cleaned it properly for a while. I took a lot more photos and videos, and have a lot more information about the condition of the other animals, such as some of the bears and tigers are missing fur on the back half of their bodies, and there are 40 goats kept in a tiny muddy stinky pen. I did not include details about those other animals because this is a tortoise forum, and I wanted to focus mainly on the tortoises. I'm sorry the photos were upside down. I have never had problems posting pics before, so I don't know what happened...

So why are you not showing the whole situation? I don't care about the other animals. You posted two pictures, and that is it. Point blank, pictures or it didn't happen........So where is the proof?

 

[shellysmom]

[/quote]

So why are you not showing the whole situation? I don't care about the other animals. You posted two pictures, and that is it. Point blank, pictures or it didn't happen........So where is the proof?
[/quote]


[/quote]

I only posted one picture for that tiger, because that IS it. That's a photo of him and his entire cage. That is his entire life, where he lives. There IS nothing more to show for him. This was only the second time I've been to the facility, and I did not walk around the entire property video taping every single detail, so if that's the proof you are asking for, I don't have it. It would be easy enough to get. Please tell me where you would like me to send the video when I'm finished with it. Again, as I said before to Tom, animal keepers have nothing to worry about from AR organizations, as long as the animals are kept in a manner that does not cause suffering. We can debate the psychology of animals all day long, but I can tell you, as a wildlife professional, when a wild animal is contained in a small space with nothing to do all day except pace back and forth, it is suffering. If you don't believe that, then there's really nothing else I can say to you.

 

[Tom]

Saving tortoises from being buried alive is animal welfare, NOT animal rights. So if your neighbor is a thieving criminal and regularly steals from you, but one day he comes over and washes your car for you, does that make him a good guy that you should support and give money too?

Animal rightists are bad people doing bad things. This is not from research. This is first hand daily life for me.They are taking food off my table and for NO good reason. They are hurting good people who do good things for animals. They are hurting people who have dedicated their entire lives to helping and caring for animals. They know they are doing this and they are using their donations from people with good, but misguided, intentions to do it. You have people like me who are busy working for a living, running around all day caring for animals, and then you have these people whose lively hood is to attack me on every front possible. You have seen the work, the love and the passion that I feel for my tortoises. You have read posts about the research I am doing, and paying for out of my own pocket, all in an effort to improve the lives of our tortoises. Animal rights groups are ACTIVELY and intentionally trying to shut me down. They come and protest me at work when no one is doing anything but loving on animals and giving them treats. They have internet campaigns putting pressure on all the shows to NOT hire me or my animals. They are have been trying to shut down a friend of mine for many years. This man truly sets the standard for elephant care. You could eat off the floor in this man's elephant barn. There are no better cared for elephants on the planet than this man's, and he contributes to elephant care and research in the same way I try to contribute to tortoise care and research, only he does a heck of a lot more. Yet these animal rights group attack him every way they can. Frivolous lawsuits that he must pay to defend against. Legal attacks abusing the system. Picketing. Boycotting people who support him. Sending hate mail. Lying to anyone who will listen to them about him. It is despicable and disgusting. I am not talking about the 2% of crazies. I'm talking about entire organizations spending millions of donated dollars to shut down legitimate business people, like me or my friend who take EXCELLENT care of their animals. They tell lies and and they set up phony photo ops that tug on the heart strings of good people with good intentions and get them to give money and volunteer to stop animal abuse that is NOT happening. It is sad and disgusting and far too many good people have been duped into helping them and contributing money.