Don't Buy Sulcata Tortoises - Giants Overwhelm U.S. Rescues

Odin's Gma

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I still can't post in the news and articles section, so here we go:

http://news.cision.com/american-tor...ises---giants-overwhelm-u-s--rescues,c9517362

Really interesting, thanks. But my sis and I have been saying that same thing for years, and all the rescues on the West Coast say oh no, we have lots of room for them....yeah, uh!

Just in the short time we have have Odin (less than 2 years) I have actively discouraged those that have inquired about the species, stressing the negatives for the hobbyists who can't get over "how adorable and cool" he is. Instead steering them towards more manageable species for our MN climate and the average yard size.
It's too bad, he IS adorable and cool, and I do wish everyone who wanted a sully could enjoy them, but there are precious few people who are willing and able to do what it takes for a massive lifetime+ pet.

I question our situation every day, but I am one of those "pets are for a lifetime" and "honor your commitment" type people and have always done what I had to do to give mine the best lives I could. I have never given up on one yet, and I don't intend to start now.

We've debated this many times here. Its been a while so it looks like its time to debate it again.

The reason rescues have so many is because most recuses charge adoption fees, require invasive yard checks, and require people to sign contracts with stipulations like repossession in them. When a sulcata ends up at any of the county animal shelters here, they are adopted the minute they become available. Often there is a line of people fighting for them.

Also, this lady is wrong about the federal 4" law. It is perfectly legal for hobby type breeders to sell of their hatchlings. It says so right in the law. The law pertains to commercial breeding operations, not private, small time, backyard pet keepers.

Actually you and I Tom have been at opposite ends of this debate for years. And I sure am sorry how you were treated when you tried to adopt from NY.....seriously.

I get in a lot of sulcatas, and sometimes I even have to resort to the dreaded Craigs list to place them. Oh No!

I get in a lot of sulcatas, and sometimes I even have to resort to the dreaded Craigs list to place them. Oh No!

But you have reasonable criteria for adoption, and you have no problem placing any that come your way, right?

Each time I have been to your place, you were not overrun with sulcatas, as the article claims is the case.

Actually you and I Tom have been at opposite ends of this debate for years. And I sure am sorry how you were treated when you tried to adopt from NY.....seriously.

I don't even remember that. Do you recall what they told me?

I've been torn for years on this issue. On the one hand, so many sulcatas are abandoned or placed in the wild once people realize these pets are very difficult to maintain. On the other hand, at least as far as I'm concerned, Sulcatas are so much better off with owners than those in the wild because of disease, parasites, and not being native to this country. It's so sad to see these exotic animals exposed to starvation, disease, and the elements that can kill them.

the problem with this is most people who get a sulcata have no idea what they're in for or how big they truly get that's they're own faults for not doing the appropriate research.

same with leopards people i've talked to not on here generally under estimate they're size or how much they eat

I've been torn for years on this issue. On the one hand, so many sulcatas are abandoned or placed in the wild once people realize these pets are very difficult to maintain. On the other hand, at least as far as I'm concerned, Sulcatas are so much better off with owners than those in the wild because of disease, parasites, and not being native to this country. It's so sad to see these exotic animals exposed to starvation, disease, and the elements that can kill them.

I've not seen this problem of sulcatas being let loose any more than any other species. I'm sure it happens occasionally, but this does not seem to be some sort of national epidemic that requires a breeding and selling moratorium.

I speculate that most of the ones running loose in the wild are escaped pets. I see this more with Desert tortoises here iCA than any other species.

the problem with this is most people who get a sulcata have no idea what they're in for or how big they truly get that's they're own faults for not doing the appropriate research.

same with leopards people i've talked to not on here generally under estimate they're size or how much they eat

Again, while cases of ignorance or dishonesty on the part of the seller certainly happen, I don't think that is the norm, or the majority. All of the people that I personally know that have sulcatas acquired them specifically because of their large size and outgoing demeanor. I can't think of one example of a personal acquaintance or family member who did know know exactly what they were getting.

I've not seen this problem of sulcatas being let loose any more than any other species. I'm sure it happens occasionally, but this does not seem to be some sort of national epidemic that requires a breeding and selling moratorium.

I speculate that most of the ones running loose in the wild are escaped pets. I see this more with Desert tortoises here iCA than any other species.

I certainly don't believe there should be a moratorium on selling sulcatas. There are many more reptile species that have reached epidemic, disproportionate levels (some here in Florida) that the state had to get involved. I simply see where there is a problem with sullies because many owners are clueless as to what they were getting into when they bought them. I know that they are better off with caring, knowledgeable owners. But, having said that, I also know there are many sullies that are abandoned or given over to rescue agencies. Tom, you know how many eggs a female can lay in one season. Just imagine all this babies born by thousands of females. Many babies will not make it, but those that survive, will be placed with owners, many who will not able to continue caring for them. Imagine the numbers of them. You tell me what's the solution?

Again, while cases of ignorance or dishonesty on the part of the seller certainly happen, I don't think that is the norm, or the majority. All of the people that I personally know that have sulcatas acquired them specifically because of their large size and outgoing demeanor. I can't think of one example of a personal acquaintance or family member who did know know exactly what they were getting.

all the people i've met personally got them as hatchlings from a pet store only to find out they're in for a surprise on how big they get and how much they eat

i've never seen a fully grown or juv sulcata in person so i'd probably be just as taken back at how big they are without just hearing measurements or seeing pictures most of the people i mention don't have the first clue of what to do to keep them healthy and alive or i should say didn't have the first clue i haven't met anyone with a sulcata in recent years.

I will try and do my part by offering to adopt all the homeless Radiata overwhelming the shelters.;)

Just in the short time we have have Odin (less than 2 years) I have actively discouraged those that have inquired about the species, stressing the negatives for the hobbyists who can't get over "how adorable and cool" he is. Instead steering them towards more manageable species for our MN climate and the average yard size.
It's too bad, he IS adorable and cool, and I do wish everyone who wanted a sully could enjoy them, but there are precious few people who are willing and able to do what it takes for a massive lifetime+ pet.

I question our situation every day, but I am one of those "pets are for a lifetime" and "honor your commitment" type people and have always done what I had to do to give mine the best lives I could. I have never given up on one yet, and I don't intend to start now.
I agree with every word and share all the same sentiments.
I also do the best I can to discourage people from getting a large tortoise. Better to scare off undependable tortoise keepers. Something kind of funny...adoption agencies for little humans:) have had me speak to classes several times trying to dissuade flakey adopters too:D

When my husband and I were essentially having a planning meeting about the stray tortoise we took into our home, we did actually call two reptile rescues in two different States to learn if they could be our backup if we felt we couldn't care for our tortoise. It was through talking to the rescues that I learned about the problem of many sulcata being set loose or given to shelters. They also told me that people have even ditched them at zoos before.

Happily, we're lifers now. If something were to happen to our tortoise, I would never buy a hatchling, but intentionally seek out a rescue and adopt one in need of a home.

*Also, I generally agree with adoption fees and yard inspections. This is a great way to discourage Bunchers. I've actually had the misfortune to speak with a despicable human being that admitted to regularly answering "Free to a good home" ads so that he could sell the animals to an animal testing lab about 5hrs from here. arrrrgh! I still get upset to think about it.

You tell me what's the solution?

Solution to what? There is no problem. And that is always the point when posts like these surface. There are plenty of homes for the sulcatas of the world and supply still has not met the demand even after all these years.

The rescues scream and holler about the horrible problem of too many sulcatas while the county shelters that get just as many, can't keep them on the shelves for one day.

Think about that.

Rescues have too many because they make it too difficult, cumbersome and costly to adopt. People take the easier and cheaper alternative and get one for free some other way with no hassles and no fees.

*Also, I generally agree with adoption fees and yard inspections.

You can agree with this all you like, but please understand that rescues who also agree with these things have lots of tortoises they can't place, while rescues and county animal shelters that don't have these policies in place, move every sulcata that comes their way right out the door as quickly as they come in.

Think about it. You can subject yourself to contracts, inspections and fees, OR you can just go pick up a free tortoise at the pound with no questions asked. Which way are you going to go?

Solution to what? There is no problem. And that is always the point when post like these surface. There are plenty of homes for the sulcatas of the world and supply still has not met the demand even after all these years.

I know you don't see there is a problem because you don't think there are many unwanted sullies. I have seen quite a bit. I even see here on the forum owners who have no concept of what it will take to care for these animals in the future. The lady who gave me my first two sullies had two clutches from her female. Each clutch produced 18 babies, and out of the first clutch, 4 babies died through dog attacks and accidents. Five were returned to her after they grew too large for them to keep. And the remaining 7, she said she had no idea how they were. That was just one clutch, and half of them either died or were unwanted. Additionally, I keep track of CL to see how many sullies are being sold. I read post here, and see how many owners can't keep their sullies and put them up for adoption. I think the problem is bigger than you're willing to see. I just feel something should be done.

Let's just, for one moment, pretend that the problem does exist. What would you propose as a solution to all unwanted sullies?

You can agree with this all you like, but please understand that rescues who also agree with these things have lots of tortoises they can't place, while rescues and county animal shelters that don't have these policies in place, move every sulcata that comes their way right out the door as quickly as they come in.

Think about it. You can subject yourself to contracts, inspections and fees, OR you can just go pick up a free tortoise at the pound with no questions asked. Which way are you going to go?
I explained my reasoning in my post.

It's OKAY for people to feel differently than you on a given subject. The forum would get kind of boring if we all shared the same single opinion.

Okay. My two,(2) cents here. I've bred sulcata, stood in the rain hand digging the eggs up, yes, all of that. Incubated and hatched out babies even. Will I do it again? Not with sulcatas. I'm too personally attached to ANY baby I'm responsible for bringing into this world. Mammal or reptile for that mater.
Go to a reptile show. When the curious learn that a russian is not a baby, they zero in on the sulcata babies. And the best part are the breeders with the 75-100lb. adult pointing out how big that cute $50.00 baby will be getting. Size does matter. There's never a mention of the yard getting destroyed, or the room being devoted to the tortoise. The drawbacks just just aren't mentioned because as a seller, you want to encourage a sale, not discourage a sell. Personally, I would rather people I likely will never see again get the truth from me rather than roses and rainbows.
I'm lucky, I've got 5 acres of southern facing pasture hillside. If I had the $, most would be set up for sulcata and only sulcata. At this stage, if I get sulcata eggs, they will go to the lower pasture for the crows.
Please understand. I'm not being mean here. Of the 7 adults that are, "Mine", 5 were rescued I took in that we're in terrible shape when I received them.
A ban? No way. Maybe a questionnaire or dialogue discussion concerning knowledge in regard to sulcatas. Just thinking out text at this stage …

I think there should be a ban on hoarding Sulcata, then letting so many die from lack of care. And this was just recent.

@Tom, remember the hassle you went thru trying to adopt from Julie? Pictures, lots of forms, I don't remember all the rules, but I do remember how mad you were. I believe the feral Sulcata situation is, as I have said before, mostly on the East Coast.
@yvonne How many Sulcata have you taken in already this year?

But you have reasonable criteria for adoption, and you have no problem placing any that come your way, right?

Each time I have been to your place, you were not overrun with sulcatas, as the article claims is the case.

I keep rescues for 2 weeks and pay attention to them to be sure they're eating and seem healthy. After that I do all within my power to place them quickly. I don't have enough quarantine pens to keep them any longer than I have to. It's not easy, and one has to work at it. If those rescues are 'overrun' I'm thinking someone is falling down on the job of looking for homes for them.

I think there should be a ban on hoarding Sulcata, then letting so many die from lack of care. And this was just recent.

@Tom, remember the hassle you went thru trying to adopt from Julie? Pictures, lots of forms, I don't remember all the rules, but I do remember how mad you were. I believe the feral Sulcata situation is, as I have said before, mostly on the East Coast.
@yvonne How many Sulcata have you taken in already this year?


It's only February and I've already taken in 4 sulcatas. This is a terrible time of year to try to find homes for them. Much easier in the summer. And I have to work pretty hard at it. I think the 'working pretty hard at it' part is why the rescues complain they are overloaded with sulcatas. You just can't sit back and expect people to come to you. You have to make phone calls, advertise, etc.

I cant' get emotionally attached to the hatchlings. I care for them and treat any that need it, but once they are sold, I don't think about them anymore. I am always available for advice regarding care, but once they leave, they are not my responsibility anymore.

If those rescues are 'overrun' I'm thinking someone is falling down on the job of looking for homes for them.
I think it's a different story in different parts of the country and more than just the East Coast. Odin's Gma touched on this issue a bit when she expressed her own feelings. There are plenty of sulcata being sold in places where they are even more difficult to care for and would obviously be more difficult to place by rescues. I spoke with two, each in a state lower than my own and with a longer warm season than my two minutes of warmth. I'm not opposed to cold climate keeping, I'm determined to do it and do it well, but I think it all boils down to the issue that many animals are ending up in the wrong hands for multiple reasons that have been mentioned in comments and quite a few places that are trying to help the animals are struggling, which seemed like the whole point of the article to me.

I think it's a different story in different parts of the country and more than just the East Coast. Odin's Gma touched on this issue a bit when she expressed her own feelings. There are plenty of sulcata being sold in places where they are even more difficult to care for and would obviously be more difficult to place by rescues.
After reading through the thread this is exactly what I wanted to add. Certainly my issue is not the norm, but here it is. As many of you know, I live in Minnesota, I have said it before and I will say it again and again and again, MN is a terrible place for sullys, yet they are openly sold at the reptile expos with:
never a mention of the yard getting destroyed, or the room being devoted to the tortoise. The drawbacks just just aren't mentioned because as a seller, you want to encourage a sale, not discourage a sell.
or the fact that, ideally, they should be outdoors all or most of the year. The best we can do here is about half the year, so the other half of that year turns into a big, expensive project.
Obviously, I am willing to do it, and my son insists when the day comes that he moves out and takes Odin with him, that he will do it, and if not, I WILL take him back, but, is it fair to Odin?
Yes, there is no denying he is spoiled rotten and very healthy and as happy as a grumpy little cuss like him can be, but what of the other sullys sold here? Have they all gone to crazy nutters like me who are willing to have their houses and yards torn apart, devoting endless hours and dollars to gardening both indoors and out, all year round? Building larger and increasingly more elaborate enclosures every year?
My god, I really hope so. But I am just not that naive.
Odin was sold, as a hatchling (or very close to it) to two teenagers, both of whom live with their parents. (Being technical adults, doesn't mean crap in this situation.) I am the one who bears the cost, it is my house and yard, and it is mostly my time.
(The time is my choice. Not only because I love him, but because I am the one in the house who is most capable of in depth animal care having done it all my life. The cost is also partly my choice because I am unwilling to allow any animal to have substandard care if I can help it.)

I would not advocate ceasing the sale of sullys, they are just too awesome, but not allowing them to be openly sold in what can be an impulse purchase at an expo in a wholly unsuitable area would not be a bad idea. Of course, allowing people to purchase from out of state, reputable breeders would be fine by me. If you can afford the long term care of a sully, surely you can afford a few days off to travel to pick them up, right?

I don't want any of this to sound as if I am angry or bitter to have Odin, I am not. I am still thrilled beyond words every day, but it every day I also question if this is what is best for him.

all the people i've met personally got them as hatchlings from a pet store only to find out they're in for a surprise on how big they get and how much they eat

i've never seen a fully grown or juv sulcata in person so i'd probably be just as taken back at how big they are without just hearing measurements or seeing pictures most of the people i mention don't have the first clue of what to do to keep them healthy and alive or i should say didn't have the first clue i haven't met anyone with a sulcata in recent years.
I bought Charlie from a pet store. I bought him because I was told he would get huge.

Well, lot's of non-information in the article. It would be nice to have included the name of at least one rescue that is overrun with sulcatas. The results of their "survey" seem questionable to me. I wonder how they actually went about conducting their survey.

I found the quote about there being no market for adults sulcatas kind of funny. Tell that to the rescue here in AZ that "adopts" them for $5/lb.

"Feral Sulcata problem", that made me laugh out loud. Show me a feral Sulcata and I'll show you a Sulcata that just found a home. The few rescues I have been to are just as Tom describe. I think they are much more about making money than finding homes. Even breeding and selling babies themselves. Job security you know.

The few rescues I have been to are just as described here on the Forum by an astute member. I think they are much more about making money than finding homes. Even breeding and selling babies themselves. Job security you know.
I've verbally promoted a reptile ”Rescue" before doing my due diligence and discovering cost inflation simply for bringing in more cash or simply wanting to keep the tortoise/turtle themselves.

"Feral Sulcata problem", that made me laugh out loud. Show me a feral Sulcata and I'll show you a Sulcata that just found a home. The few rescues I have been to are just as Tom describe. I think they are much more about making money than finding homes. Even breeding and selling babies themselves. Job security you know.
That has been my observation also. Of the "rescue" that I found in south Florida. The money was the number one concern, not if I could care for a tortoise.

e`1
I read post here, and see how many owners can't keep their sullies and put them up for adoption. I think the problem is bigger than you're willing to see. I just feel something should be done.

Let's just, for one moment, pretend that the problem does exist. What would you propose as a solution to all unwanted sullies?

How many of those put up for adoption don't have any takers? None. There are dozens who would love to give them a good home.
Why would we pretend a problem exists, other than to further promote the falsehood that there is a problem?

I'm all for yard/habitat inspections, and new owners demonstrating knowledge and concern for proper care. Even with those stipulations there are still way more suitable homes than tortoises looking for them. And yes there are people who don't care for their torts and the tort suffers in any number of ways. That does not mean we have a giant Sulcata tortoise problem overwhelming US Rescues. That is not true.

My sister does a yard inspection, but it's not invasive and she's able to point out weak spots in fences and she makes sure the adoptees understand what it means to own Sulcata. She doesn't charge a dime. I think too much is made of their size and power. I don't think I've ever had as much fun with an animal as I did Bob. BUT, he was set up well, comfortable and roomy. The only time he escaped was when I didn't get the gate quite locked. He had gatedar and always knew when he could get out.
If they are set up safely and comfortably they are more fun and easier to care for than most chelonians. Personally, it's much easier to care for a 125 pound Sulcata than one who weighs 125 grams.....
you couldn't let a Redfoot or Pancake out in the snow for instance, yet Bob, on his own went in the snow daily..... I know from experience that it's the East Coast rescues that have so much trouble, but hell, it's easier and cheaper to adopt a human kid then a reptile from an East Coast rescue.....

I used to feel kinda guilty keeping Bob in the PNW were people don't tan, they rust. But Bob was big enough to make up his own mind if he wanted to go out or not. And his shed is 20'X12' giving him enough room to pace if he didn't want to go into the snow. They are active and need room to pace.
I would always recommend against getting a hatchling, but get one about 40 pounds and the fun begins....

My sister does a yard inspection, but it's not invasive and she's able to point out weak spots in fences and she makes sure the adoptees understand what it means to own Sulcata. She doesn't charge a dime.

Your sister is awesome in every way and this thread and these posts really don't pertain to her. She does things "right", and she has no problem placing tortoises. She is not "over run" with sulcatas, although she gets several each year.

If she required oppressive contracts and charged $5 a pound, or more for nicer looking ones, she too would have lots of surplus sulcatas sitting around.

e`1
How many of those put up for adoption don't have any takers? None. There are dozens who would love to give them a good home.
Why would we pretend a problem exists, other than to further promote the falsehood that there is a problem?

Great post. How many times do lurkers come out of the wood work offering to take every free sulcata that is offered for adoption. Many members here even comment on this phenomenon. Anyone can look through the adoption section and see this…

I say it again: Rescues who have too many sulcatas have them because of their "adoption" policies. When sulcatas are offered for free with no strings attached, they get snapped up immediately and even fought over sometimes. This has nothing to do with whether or not it is "right" or "wrong" to have such policies, but it seems silly to me to ignore these obvious correlations between those who have too many sulcatas in their rescue and those rescues or animal shelters that have no problem quickly placing any sulcatas that come their way.

I drove an 85 pound male to her Tuesday, she had a home for him by Friday. I had him for a couple of weeks so we considered that his quarantine period.He ate everything but the tires off my car.
I know you weren't including Y in this, She's about the best rescue I have ever been to .....

I'm on the east coast where it gets very cold at times. I got my first sulcata hatchling in 1996, He has grown up and tonight he is resting very comfortably in his warm house, Outside air temp is 25 degrees F. He goes in and out as he pleases unless we are expecting very heavy snow like we had a couple weeks ago, Then I will close his door to keep him in.Over the years I have had people with sulcatas that are getting up in size contact me on how mine are kept over winter so they can keep theirs and not having to adopt them out. One lady that really love hers and doesn't want to keep it closed up in cold weather brought her hired carpenter over to see my houses to see options on construction with low wattage heat to save on electric cost.It doesn't need to cost a lot to heat an outside house for sulcatas, I have four houses in use for my 5 larger tortoises. This winter the house that 2 of the females are in has adjustable wattage from inside our laundry room. I have a kil a watt and an adjustable dimmer hooked up so I can see and adjust if needed how much electric is being used without even going outside. I have wireless thermometers reading inside air temps of all the houses.Tonight at 25 degrees it is using 200 watts to keep it above 80 degrees.I have only taken in ! sulcata that the owner just didn't want to keep, and I found a home for it in a warm weather area. I feel that anyone seriously thinking about keeping a large tortoise wherever they live should be able too. Also for me I think large males are better cold weather animals than females, I have a female in the garage trying to nest right now, If they only laid in the summer it would be so much easier on them and me.
 
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Yvonne G

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Well, I really messed up this thread, and I'm terribly sorry. I can't figure out how to save it. Maggie's computer was acting up and she couldn't turn it off. It posted some old stuff that she had typed but not sent, and she asked me to delete it, which I did, but in trying to merge the good stuff back in, I accidentally merged all the posts in the thread into one, and I don't know how to fix it.
 

motero

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It was coming to its end anyways, just through it out.
 

Donnette Keys

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I have four hatchlings. I am perfectly aware of how huge they will get. My children have been informed that they are part of the inheritance. I am glad I knew going in that it was a lifetime plus commitment.
 

jay surfs

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I just bought two Sulcatas this week of craigslist for a very fair price. both in seemingly good health. This is why; when I searched rescues to perhaps adopt some, I was discouraged to adopt because of the guidelines. I also searched animal shelters in several SoCal counties, I did not find any there. Right or wrong, agree or not, those are my reasons for buying from a private breeder on craigslist.
 

Tom

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I have four hatchlings. I am perfectly aware of how huge they will get. My children have been informed that they are part of the inheritance. I am glad I knew going in that it was a lifetime plus commitment.

Thank you for posting this.

One of the key elements of this discussion is the assertion that most of the people buying sulcatas have no idea what they are getting into or how big the animal will get. I don't agree with this assertion, as it has not been my experience in the vast majority of cases.

The vast majority of people I know that have sulcatas knew exactly what they were getting, as both you and I did.
 

Yvonne G

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I wouldn't say it was the 'vast majority', Tom. Most of the large sulcatas I take in come with the story that the people had no idea how destructive the tortoise would be or how big it would grow.
 

ALDABRAMAN

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Most of the large sulcatas I take in come with the story that the people had no idea how destructive the tortoise would be or how big it would grow.

~ Unfortunately, we get many also, especially big males. We have sources that will take them, however there seems to be more and more every year.

IMG_1885.JPG
 

Tom

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I wouldn't say it was the 'vast majority', Tom. Most of the large sulcatas I take in come with the story that the people had no idea how destructive the tortoise would be or how big it would grow.

I don't have any way of knowing what the actual numbers are. I was only relating what I have personally seen, and the vast majority of people I know with sulcatas knew all about how big they would get and what they would need. I don't doubt that there are people that ended up with a sulcata who didn't know what it was, or what it was going to become, I just have not encountered very many of those. Being that you operate a rescue, it seems logical to me that you would see more of theses cases than I have.
 

Donnette Keys

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So I had the discussion with my husband last night about my four Sulcatas and their eventual size and destructive nature. He said..."we are gonna need a bigger back yard."
 

dmmj

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from my own personal experience the majority of these tortoises that turned into my chapter the turtle and Tortoise Club the number one reason is we didn't know how big it would get.
 
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Maggie Cummings

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It pisses me off too. Because those animals bond to their Food goddess or god and then all the sudden they are thrown out with the trash. Think about how hurt that animal is, and how much he misses his home. I hate that. If I get an animal for me, it's a lifetime deal. I am responsible for making his life great, even if he knocks down fences, eats 10 rose bushes, ruins the skirting, etc. Doesn't stop me from loving him and taking good care of him...the best care, it's OUR responsibility.
 

Yvonne G

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I don't have any way of knowing what the actual numbers are. I was only relating what I have personally seen, and the vast majority of people I know with sulcatas knew all about how big they would get and what they would need. I don't doubt that there are people that ended up with a sulcata who didn't know what it was, or what it was going to become, I just have not encountered very many of those. Being that you operate a rescue, it seems logical to me that you would see more of theses cases than I have.

Sorry. You said the vast majority of people you know. I missed that distinction.
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
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They are afterall being taken from the wild...we owe it to them.

With the exception of some percentage of russians tortoises, most are CB nowadays.

Just sayin'...
 
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Donnette Keys

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Ahhhh...ok. I get your point. If they hadn't been taken from the wild to begin with then...
 
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