Substrate help please

[Gembolina]

Morning All,

I seem to be having slight issues with Shelby's substrate, he has been on topsoil on it's own but it isn't drying out enough and is getting a little damp and also some flies.. I'm going to remove the plants first off and have purchased some coconut humus online. It's arrived this morning and all the packaging and usage is in German! From what I have translated ad read I'm wondering whether I should be using it dry or wetting it first?? I was thinking of mixing it with topsoil...

Any help/experience would be greatly appreciated, ideally want to get it changed today,

Thanks, Gemma

 

[WithLisa]

Do you have a picture?

 

[ZEROPILOT]

I use Orchid bark underneath with potting soil/compost on top of that.
Pour water into the corners and the bark absorbs it. Giving you the humidity you want but leaving the top layer pretty dry.
Coco coir would work the same way...............

 

[Gembolina]

Hi, Yes - pic attached, it's in brick form...

 

[Gembolina]

I use Orchid bark underneath with potting soil/compost on top of that.
Pour water into the corners and the bark absorbs it. Giving you the humidity you want but leaving the top layer pretty dry.
Coco coir would work the same way...............

Thank you, please see the pic attached, would I still get the damp though if I put this new coco underneath the topsoil?

 

[WithLisa]

You have to put the brick in a bucket with water and let it soak. I would use 2-3l at first, you can always add more water if it's not enough.

 

[Gembolina]

You have to put the brick in a bucket with water and let it soak. I would use 2-3l at first, you can always add more water if it's not enough.

Thanks Lisa,, have done! Have baked the topsoil too earlier and he's now in a mixture of the 2, it's a but stinky, heres hoping the smell will subside slightly over the next couple of days!

 

[Linhdan Nguyen]

If youre worried about it being too damp, mixing it up with your hands a few times a week will help. That way the top dry layer gets mixed below and the wet soil gets some air and can dry out.

 

[Court562]

Does coco coir harm thier eyes if it gets in there? Also I'm nothing it's getting all over her body. I'm wetting it, and just pounded it down with my hands.

 

[Pearly]

Hi, Gemma. I have been keeping my hatchlings in 40 gal breeder tank which I've made into a bioactive terrarium with live plants growing directly in the substrate which consist of the following: 1) layer of activated charcoal on the bottom, 2) about 1.5 inch layer of reptibark, 3) thick layer of coco coir and soil around plant roots (coir alone doesn't make a good growing medium), 4) moss covering most of the walking/sleeping surface. There is a cleaning crew made of earthworms, pillbugs and tiny soil centipedes. this is just to give you an idea. This is an old picture. Things have been improved since then

 

[ZEROPILOT]

Thank you, please see the pic attached, would I still get the damp though if I put this new coco underneath the topsoil?

I believe it would act the same way. However, I've never used the coconut fiber before. Just the Orchid bark.

 

[Pearly]

Thanks Lisa,, have done! Have baked the topsoil too earlier and he's now in a mixture of the 2, it's a but stinky, heres hoping the smell will subside slightly over the next couple of days!

"Stinky"??? From baking???? My substrate has been there for several months and has earthy smell to it as it is a living mini ecosystem but there isnotjing unpleasant about it. I also don't even remember the last time I had to pick up poo, as they always poop when we have them outside or in their bath. I'm not sure about pee. They always pee BIG puddles outside and not sure if any inside their tank, but if they do, the plants and bugs must be taking care of breaking it down bcs there's no "toilet odors" in there at all

 

[Gembolina]

"Stinky"??? From baking???? My substrate has been there for several months and has earthy smell to it as it is a living mini ecosystem but there isnotjing unpleasant about it

Yes, was just the coco that was a bit whiffy, it has subsided though now

 

[Tom]

Here is my opinion: Soil should never be used as a tortoise substrate in an indoor enclosure because there is no way to know what it is made of. Is it composted oleander? Is it composted rose bush clippings with fungicide and systemic pesticides? Is it yard clippings recently sprayed with a "weed n' feed"? Is there sewage in it? Any other foreign matter that we don't want? No way to know. Just don't use it.

Coco coir works great for small Testudo species. Keep it moist, use a thick layer, and hand pack it down. After a couple of weeks it will "settle" in nicely and become less messy. It does not hurt their eyes.

Fine grade orchid bark works well for any species and age. It also needs to be kept damp.

I also see no reason to mix different substrates. Just pick one you like and go with it. Anytime I've attempted the layers suggested here my rambunctious tortoises happily mix it all up for me.

 

[Court562]

What if the Coco coi gets in thier food and they eat it, will it impact them? Mine seems to get EVERYWHERE. it also gets in her eyes. All I'm using is Coco coi.

 

[Tom]

What if the Coco coi gets in thier food and they eat it, will it impact them? Mine seems to get EVERYWHERE. it also gets in her eyes. All I'm using is Coco coi.

Coir is messy and that is why I don't recommend it for baby sulcatas or leopards, like yours. I prefer fine grade orchid bark for those two species and Stars too.

Ingesting small amounts of coir stuck to the food should not be an impaction risk. I've raised dozens of babies of multiple species on coir and never once had an impaction or problem of any kind.

 

[Pearly]

What if the Coco coi gets in thier food and they eat it, will it impact them? Mine seems to get EVERYWHERE. it also gets in her eyes. All I'm using is Coco coi.

Good question! That's why I like to use sheet moss here - before the moss- I was dumping my earthworms that I had bought for food but they wouldn't eat them. That's what prompted me to trying bioactive. and here- with the moss

 

[Pearly]

Here is my opinion: Soil should never be used as a tortoise substrate in an indoor enclosure because there is no way to know what it is made of. Is it composted oleander? Is it composted rose bush clippings with fungicide and systemic pesticides? Is it yard clippings recently sprayed with a "weed n' feed"? Is there sewage in it? Any other foreign matter that we don't want? No way to know. Just don't use it.

Coco coir works great for small Testudo species. Keep it moist, use a thick layer, and hand pack it down. After a couple of weeks it will "settle" in nicely and become less messy. It does not hurt their eyes.

Fine grade orchid bark works well for any species and age. It also needs to be kept damp.

I also see no reason to mix different substrates. Just pick one you like and go with it. Anytime I've attempted the layers suggested here my rambunctious tortoises happily mix it all up for me.

I both agree and disagree with you Tom. I think that the big substrate debate is great but it really boils down to every keepers personal choice. It just has to work for each and everyone of us. I started with reptibark (like fine grade orchid bark) but I didn't really like my babies tiny feet on that coarse surface, so following the list of choices recommended by TFO, I very quickly replaced that with coco coir. That was way too messy! Coir in water and food, in the babies faces... Not for my nerves that's why I started searching for a way to keep things neater and started using mosses, in the outdoor enclosure I'll have ground covers. Another thing I had to change was all the plants. I didn't like how the plants looked with pots just buried in substrate, and had to make a decision at that point about the potting soil. The choice could have been to wash all the soil out of the roots before planting them directly in substrate, but why do that?! My potting soil comes from my garden and I know it's safe, so I begun to just take the plants of the the pot and planting the whole root ball with surrounding soil in the coco coir. The idea of using activated chacoal on the bottom came from me digging little deeper into growing terrarium plants (all this is about the indoors closed chamber) and the layer of bark on the bottom (on top of charcoal) was just my old reptibark from the initial enclosure that I thought could help with drainage and aeration. From there things just kept evolving to fit the current needs of the tank residents. Again, I'm just sharing my own experience from the painful and frustrating beginning 12 months ago till this point where I'm comfortable navigating through all that. As for "layers" my babies don't really burrow. They started destroying the "pretty design" at some point, and that's ok. I want to re-do things periodically anyway, clean things up, prune the plants, replace others, replace old dead moss, clean the thermomenters, rocks, glass. It gives me a chance to take a good look at things, examine the health of the tank, the bugs, see if there any dead bugs, mold or any other unwelcome guests in there. It simply WORKS for me. Now, I'm only doing this for the 2 babies we have. I'm not sure if it would work as well for a larger scale operation like yours, Tom. For that many torts you have to have a very efficient system. I just enjoy playing with mine. It's my daughter's new hobby and I'm trying to teach her by example about bringing balance and harmony to the hectic life of a busy professional

 

[Tom]

I both agree and disagree with you Tom. I think that the big substrate debate is great but it really boils down to every keepers personal choice. It just has to work for each and everyone of us. I started with reptibark (like fine grade orchid bark) but I didn't really like my babies tiny feet on that coarse surface, so following the list of choices recommended by TFO, I very quickly replaced that with coco coir. That was way too messy! Coir in water and food, in the babies faces... Not for my nerves that's why I started searching for a way to keep things neater and started using mosses, in the outdoor enclosure I'll have ground covers. Another thing I had to change was all the plants. I didn't like how the plants looked with pots just buried in substrate, and had to make a decision at that point about the potting soil. The choice could have been to wash all the soil out of the roots before planting them directly in substrate, but why do that?! My potting soil comes from my garden and I know it's safe, so I begun to just take the plants of the the pot and planting the whole root ball with surrounding soil in the coco coir. The idea of using activated chacoal on the bottom came from me digging little deeper into growing terrarium plants (all this is about the indoors closed chamber) and the layer of bark on the bottom (on top of charcoal) was just my old reptibark from the initial enclosure that I thought could help with drainage and aeration. From there things just kept evolving to fit the current needs of the tank residents. Again, I'm just sharing my own experience from the painful and frustrating beginning 12 months ago till this point where I'm comfortable navigating through all that. As for "layers" my babies don't really burrow. They started destroying the "pretty design" at some point, and that's ok. I want to re-do things periodically anyway, clean things up, prune the plants, replace others, replace old dead moss, clean the thermomenters, rocks, glass. It gives me a chance to take a good look at things, examine the health of the tank, the bugs, see if there any dead bugs, mold or any other unwelcome guests in there. It simply WORKS for me. Now, I'm only doing this for the 2 babies we have. I'm not sure if it would work as well for a larger scale operation like yours, Tom. For that many torts you have to have a very efficient system. I just enjoy playing with mine. It's my daughter's new hobby and I'm trying to teach her by example about bringing balance and harmony to the hectic life of a busy professional

Fair enough. It it works for you, that is great. I've tried that sort of thing with my species and it did not work for me. All of the species I've kept try to eat the moss. RFs are not a species I have a lot of experience with because they don't do well in my climate.

 

[Pearly]

this is where the water dish fits. The combo of moss and flat rocks around keeps the stuff fairly clean
another view
the mossy hills are resin caves covered with river moss. They loved climbing on top of them
here I tried the clay pots for a while but they really preferred the hides that were not as "wide necked". They like to hide in darkness.



this is right after the clean-up and replanting. I started digging plants/weeds out of my garden and planting them in there. It's been working great!
and here's one of the latest, with use of moss, rocks and patches of reptibark just to see how I'd like it and I do.

One more thing, @Tom, my intention has not been to MIX the soil with coir, but rather "plugs" of soil around the plant roots but with consecutive cleanup jobs and some plants not making it, things started getting mixed up. I hated to redo/start over bcs the pillbugs and earthworms in there started looking so healthy and multiplying so I decided to just live it be. So as you can see, my idea of substrate just sort of "happened". I tend to do that in my hobby life, no planning. I have to do way too much planning in life (and darn good at it too) so my painting, music, garden... Just sort of... HAPPEN! It makes me happy to do it this way. As long as my animals are healthy and growing, I must be doing something right