Soaks
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BILBO-03
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What size are they? If they are both the same size they can soak together
They should not be living together, let alone soaking together.
They are solitary and very territorial creatures.
Please read the links I posted in your other thread about their care.
This thread is about Russians, but the same applies to Leopards
Why not to keep 2 tortoises together
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...together-a-lesson-learned-the-hard-way.94114/
They are solitary and very territorial creatures.
Please read the links I posted in your other thread about their care.
This thread is about Russians, but the same applies to Leopards
Why not to keep 2 tortoises together
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...together-a-lesson-learned-the-hard-way.94114/
Thank you for your thoughts but... I have been told that they can live together as long as they have ample space. Also they love to sleep next to each other and are getting along very nicely so far. Everything I've read has said that leopards are not territorial with each other, especially if it's not two males.
They are not cuddling up together. That's jostling for the best sleeping spot.
Leopards are territorial regardless of gender. A very large enclosure is 4'x8' per tortoise. There is always a dominant tortoise that will assert its rights to the best food, basking spots, sleeping spots, etc.
Groups of 3 or more may succeed in such an enclosure, but pairs almost always do not, especially when there is a size difference as there is with yours, because there is no way to for the subordinate tortoise to escape the dominant one.
Your tortoises are far too small to sex yet. You will have no idea of their gender for a few years yet in any case.
Please understand that we talk with decades of experience of keeping tortoise care here. They need to be separated so that both can grow to be healthy.
Again thank you for your thoughts. But there are other experts who have had different experiences with their tortoises(such as zoomed staff) and others that I have spoken with (during my research period) before I made a decision on what type and how many, so we will take our chances and see how it goes for us. Also I don't doubt your expertise at all but there are many experts out there that have different views about what is right and wrong based on facts as well as what has worked out for them.
Where exactly have you done this research? I can pretty much guarantee you that the best information is on this site.
OK great thank you for your thoughts as well.
To answer your original question, they should be soaked separately. This allows you to monitor the bowel movements and reduces the risk of disease or parasite transmission.
I am an expert and I'm telling you that tortoise should not be housed in pairs. Not even leopards. It is stressful on them and the chronic stress is hampering their immune systems. Its not good. Saying that you are going to let it go and see what happens is equivalent to someone saying they are going to put two un-nuetered male pit bulls in a back yard and just see how it goes. Only when tortoises don't get along, its not so obvious.
The point of a forum like this is to share info so that people don't have to learn the hard way. I learned the hard way, and my animals suffered for it decades ago. I'm hoping that you won't have to. The choice is yours.
Here is more explanation if you are not convinced yet:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/pairs.34837/
@Will ,
Would you share that super duper explanation that you typed out on that other thread? I can't find it now...
I am an expert and I'm telling you that tortoise should not be housed in pairs. Not even leopards. It is stressful on them and the chronic stress is hampering their immune systems. Its not good. Saying that you are going to let it go and see what happens is equivalent to someone saying they are going to put two un-nuetered male pit bulls in a back yard and just see how it goes. Only when tortoises don't get along, its not so obvious.
The point of a forum like this is to share info so that people don't have to learn the hard way. I learned the hard way, and my animals suffered for it decades ago. I'm hoping that you won't have to. The choice is yours.
Here is more explanation if you are not convinced yet:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/pairs.34837/
@Will ,
Would you share that super duper explanation that you typed out on that other thread? I can't find it now...
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Your narrative reads good Tom.
I said something to the effect that because it is confined space even the two best buddies of any kind of animals will stress each other some. Twins of people, wonderful marriages of people, the best pairing you can imagine and when it involves confined space, it gets stressful. It's an insidious slow-to-do damage stress, but it occurs.
Stress is a collection of 'be somewhere else' accumulation that can't be realized in an enclosure. The I should be somewhere else is the subordinate individual. The dominant individual stresses too, their feedback is "why is this other one always around?", "didn't I signal to be somewhere else?"
Sometimes that stress can be used in a good way. Many males can be housed together under close supervision for a few hours. They get all hopped up on testosterone and may fight some. The things is when they are all separated and put back with females, they all seem to think "I won". But that's another thread on another related topic.
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Wow, I didn't read the OP and just commented about cohabitation of tortoises together based on Tom mentioning me.
So for soaking, 'supervised' if they are the same size and sourced from the same place, that might not be so bad in that tortoises do on occasion cross paths, so they know other tortoises are out there in wild. What I mean by supervised is not continual direct observation but out of a 20 or 30 minute soaking session maybe check them every few minutes as you go about doing together things, like folding clothes or whatever. They can be soaked seperatly as well, so that soaking is not correlated to that "other guy". The first few minutes after they get oriented from being picked up and placed in the tub will be the critical moment. Water should be shallow so that is one gets flipped while you look away it won't be immersed above it's head.
So, they are similar in size, I see from the image, they are from the same source? Soaking together sometimes is okay. Sometimes separate. That way they are not enclosed in the same space all the time.
Similarly, if you have an outdoor pen for when weather is good, sometimes together and sometimes separate would be okay, I think too. They need to be able to not be in each other face all the time. Neither tortoise should find itself fleeing the other, or not be able to make the other get out of "their" space.
The goals are to not 'make' them be enclosed together all the time, not even most of the time, but sometimes is okay. The other goal is under the concern of bio-security, you don't want one causing the other to become ill.
This is an odd fine balance. After all sometime two tortoises did get together and 'hooked up', but they are all for the most part best kept as single animals. Or in enclosures so large they can get away from each other. That maybe/is possible with indoor enclosures as well. They need their autonomy much more than they need to be together.
@AJT This may all sound confusing, I get it. The experience of people who had that tortoise get flipped over and drown in a soak can be very motivating to how strong a response you get. I've lost a few small tortoises this way myself. I also get it that a rational person would say, "well heck, they mate so they must get together at least sometimes." There are indeed places where fresh hatchlings (mostly aquatics) aggregate, cause that's how you don't get eaten, but in all direct fairness, turtle and tortoises are solitary animals.
So for soaking, 'supervised' if they are the same size and sourced from the same place, that might not be so bad in that tortoises do on occasion cross paths, so they know other tortoises are out there in wild. What I mean by supervised is not continual direct observation but out of a 20 or 30 minute soaking session maybe check them every few minutes as you go about doing together things, like folding clothes or whatever. They can be soaked seperatly as well, so that soaking is not correlated to that "other guy". The first few minutes after they get oriented from being picked up and placed in the tub will be the critical moment. Water should be shallow so that is one gets flipped while you look away it won't be immersed above it's head.
So, they are similar in size, I see from the image, they are from the same source? Soaking together sometimes is okay. Sometimes separate. That way they are not enclosed in the same space all the time.
Similarly, if you have an outdoor pen for when weather is good, sometimes together and sometimes separate would be okay, I think too. They need to be able to not be in each other face all the time. Neither tortoise should find itself fleeing the other, or not be able to make the other get out of "their" space.
The goals are to not 'make' them be enclosed together all the time, not even most of the time, but sometimes is okay. The other goal is under the concern of bio-security, you don't want one causing the other to become ill.
This is an odd fine balance. After all sometime two tortoises did get together and 'hooked up', but they are all for the most part best kept as single animals. Or in enclosures so large they can get away from each other. That maybe/is possible with indoor enclosures as well. They need their autonomy much more than they need to be together.
@AJT This may all sound confusing, I get it. The experience of people who had that tortoise get flipped over and drown in a soak can be very motivating to how strong a response you get. I've lost a few small tortoises this way myself. I also get it that a rational person would say, "well heck, they mate so they must get together at least sometimes." There are indeed places where fresh hatchlings (mostly aquatics) aggregate, cause that's how you don't get eaten, but in all direct fairness, turtle and tortoises are solitary animals.
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My opinion is that it would be best to soak them separately. I do not like soaking babies together, they tend to be more active when placed in water and that usually disturbs others from drinking a sufficient amount of water.
