Russian photo and care sheet review request

[Madkins007]

https://sites.google.com/site/tortoiselibrary/species-information/russian-tortoises

I am looking for a good photo or two of a Russian to use on the care sheet in the Tortoise Library. I cannot pay, but will make sure that the photo is credited. (While I appreciate blanket 'feel free to use anything I post' comments, I would prefer that you post a good photo or a few photos and give me specific permission for them.)

I am also looking for feedback on the cares described, grammar, etc. (there or anywhere on the site!)

Right now, the Library is designed for forest tortoises, but I am hoping to broaden it to cover most pet tortoise species.

 

[Spn785]

I haven't read the whole thing yet, but I did notice one thing you might mention and/or change. The genus for the Russian Tortoise is up for debate, whether it is Testudo or Agrionemys, and I believe more sources are moving toward Agrionemys. Though, honestly, this is of little importance to most keepers.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

I will gladly give you some great photos of Mt Russian. Where would you like them? Posted here? Emailed?

---

"of my Russian"

 

[adamkenn]

Hello this is Mo think he is about 1year old

 

[Eloise's mommy]

You have permission to use any of these photos.

 

[Tom]

I haven't read the whole thing yet, but I did notice one thing you might mention and/or change. The genus for the Russian Tortoise is up for debate, whether it is Testudo or Agrionemys, and I believe more sources are moving toward Agrionemys. Though, honestly, this is of little importance to most keepers.

HA! I'm sticking with Testudo and even hordes of lab-coated scientists will NEVER make me change. BWAHHAHAHAHAHAA.....

 

[LolaMyLove]

Here's my little Nubs

 

[Spn785]

I haven't read the whole thing yet, but I did notice one thing you might mention and/or change. The genus for the Russian Tortoise is up for debate, whether it is Testudo or Agrionemys, and I believe more sources are moving toward Agrionemys. Though, honestly, this is of little importance to most keepers.

HA! I'm sticking with Testudo and even hordes of lab-coated scientists will NEVER make me change. BWAHHAHAHAHAHAA.....

LOL!!!

 

[Levi the Leopard]

You have my permission for these photos.

I can take specific pictures if you would like. Just let me know and I'd be more than happy to do it

---

From the care sheet:
"Russian tortoises are threatened and even endangered in some parts of their range due to habitat loss (mostly for grazing and agricultural uses), as well as being over-collection for folk medicine and as pets."

"as well as being over-collection for" .. should it read "over-collected" ?? ..or "as well as over-collection for" ??

Just trying to help since you asked

If I am mis reading this (I am no expert) please inform me. I would like to know. Thanks!

 

[Tom]

Some of the initial statements are highly debatable, but nothing that's a deal killer for me.

1. It says, "Summer temperatures range from 12C (53.5F) in the mountain areas to 17.7C (65F) at lower altitudes (roughly similar to Michigan or Colorado)" Are these the low, highs, averages? I was under the impression that it got very hot in summer in russian territory, thus causing aestivation.

2. "Eggs should be incubated in a dry substrate at about 80% humidity and 30-35C (86-95F) in still air incubators." 95 degrees Fahrenheit for incubating russians? Haven't seen it that high. Those temps would kill sulcata or leopard eggs.

3. In the "Environment" section, it states "The overall temperatures should be about 30C (86F) during the day and cooler at night and in one hiding area." Over all, as in ambient? What about basking temp and a gradient as the tortoise moves away from it. I don't think 86 is a warm enough basking area in an indoor enclosure, and I think its too warm for the cool side temp.

Overall very good. I liked the range info and the compatibility info. Once the three issues above are addressed I would like to refer people to this for good russian info.

 

[biochemnerd808]

Egg incubation - 85-90 degrees. Anything above 91 degrees will result in low hatch rate and mutations.

Russians need 4 different temperatures. Night-time temp should have a drop to below 70*F (21*C). Daytime temperatures: basking temperature (immediately under the heat lamp) should be 95-100*F (35-38*C). This temperature is necessary to allow for digestion. The ambient warm side of the enclosure should be around 80*F (27*C). The cool side should be around 70-72*F during daytime (21*C).

Also, humid + warm = good. Humid + cold = bad... so the hide on the cool side should be fairly dry.

 

[Big B]

You have my permission to use this photo

 

[Yvonne G]

"They" tried to change the name to agrionemys, however because the Russian tortoise will interbreed with the tortoises in the testudo category, they've decided to leave it testudo.

 

[taytay3391]

you have permission if you so choose to use any.

 

[SmileyKylie623]

You have my permission to use the following pictures of my Russian hatchling.


If you need something more substantial let me know.

 

[Madkins007]

Heather- Thanks and fixed!

Tom and Biochemnerd- do you have any sources for your comments? Not that I don't have anything but the highest respect for you two, but I really prefer to cite sources for things whenever I can. While I am not as anal about it as Wikipedia can be, it is one of my goals to have things in the Library be citable whenever possible. As an example, pretty much everything you commented on comes straight from the German source.

HOWEVER, I do agree overall so made some initial tweaks and will certainly tweak more if needed! The 35C (95F) incubation temps comes from the German source and they mention it a couple times. I dropped it a little in the article to be safe, but would love more good sources for things like this.

Tom- I will double check and clarify the temps, but as you know, averages can be tricky. The average summer temp for Arizona is only 78.1. Texas and Louisiana have the highest averages at 81.1. It might help, however, to limit it to July temps? That would push Arizona up to 80. Maybe I can get a temp range for some of the areas involved- that might be more helpful.

Photos- guys, these are all great! Thank you! With all of these to use as a guide, I now know that I am looking for a good photo of an adult in a semi-naturalistic setting (which would not usually be green grass.) I am using Cheryl's for right now, but always looking for more! (Cheryl- how would you like it credited?)

Agrionemys- I thought this was 'it', until I re-researched it and it seems that the whole interbreeding with other Testudo sort of put a halt to it.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

Glad I helped!

Russian, in a natural type setting...I'll see if I can make some good ones for you to consider!

 

[Tom]

I don't think listing "average" temps helps anyone. How about listing the highs and lows for summer instead of whatever you have there now. It gets much hotter than 65 in russian territory in summer. (Citation: Weather.com)

On the incubation temps: There is a book called "Giant Lizards" by Robert Sprackland. One of my favorites from when I was much younger. In it he lists egg incubation temps for all the giant species of lizards. The temps listed for Black throated monitors were unusually higher than the rest. It didn't seem right, but this guy is an expert and everything else about the book seemed so legit. When a friend had a clutch of 22 Balckthroat eggs, we decided to split them into three groups. One at Sprackland's listed temps, one at "normal' monitor incubation temps, and one in the middle. The ones incubated at the middle temps began hatching first. A few were normal, but some had weird congenital defects. The next batch that hatched were the "normal" temp ones. All hatched and were perfect. None of the ones incubated at Sprackland's higher temps made it. Years later I had the good fortune to meet Mr. Sprackland and related this story to him. He knew all about it. He said it was a misprint, he was very upset about it, and he was very sorry. The point is: Citations should not overrule common sense and people you know with decades of experience at hatching russians (not referring to me). Citations can be wrong, and this one seems to be.

In my hand I hold the new "Russian Tortoises In Captivity" book by Jerry Fife. He says, "Incubation at constant temperatures may range between 77 to 90 F. Embryonic survival is impossible above 95F. Constant temperatures below 77F likewise will result in non-viable embryos." How's that for a citation? Personal conversations with The Brothers Fife, and other experienced russian breeders, at the annual TTPG conference have also made it clear that going above 90 will yield bad results, birth defects, dead pre-term embryos, and a number of other bad things that we don't want to happen. Richard told me that in his experience Russian incubation temps should be similar to sulcata incubation temps, that the TSD point seemed to be similar to him, and that they do not need a diapause breaking cooling period. I asked him that last question because of the climate they come from.

Will you please change that now before someone reads it and sets their incubator to 95 for Russian eggs?

 

[Madkins007]

I had already made both changes you just suggested when I posted my replies above. If you get a chance, take a look and see if it works better for you.

Sigh. I'll probably have to get a copy of Jerry's book, won't I? I enjoy his articles a lot!

Citations vs. common sense. Your example is a good one, but that is not a common situation. A different example is the range of 'cherry-head' tortoises. Dr. Frieberg in 'Turtles of South America' said they come from Argentina and such, and Dr. Pritchard repeated this in 'The Turtles of Venezuela'. We now know this was because people were trying to get around Brazil's export laws, but it is a 'cite-able' 'fact'- totally erroneous, but Pritchard's book is considered authoritative.

'Common sense' is, in my mind, trickier. It reminds me of a recent discussion about the dangers of lotion on a tortoise's shell where the dangers were all based on theoretical possibilities rather than any real issues. It can sound really good, but...

I also did not mean to imply that I was discounting your comments- and like I said, I had already made adjustments based on them- but I really like to be able to offer readers that little extra bit of reassurance that being able to back the facts up can offer.

 

[Tortoise]

I'm not new to tortoises but as a new Russian tortoise owner I have to wonder about the humidity information??

Mostly I read dry substrates, but other keepers will tell you that some humidity is necessary and is often over looked and the Russians in the wild would encounter some humidity within their natural hides.

Any thoughts on this?

Just trying to make sure I find a balance as I don't want them to be too dry but would hate to put their health in jeopardy with too much moisture too-it seems like a fine balance regarding humidity for Russian tortoises

Great you are working on a care sheet as there is so much conflicting info on the internet its no wonder people get confused.