Questions about my rescue

[sericinda]

I recently rescued two torts off classifieds locally from someone who was giving them to the first person who came and picked them up, which could have been a disaster. Im much more versed in Russians and Greeks, so I'm unsure about this little guy/gal and have some questions..

First off...I was told 'he' is a redfoot...is this accurate? He has more yellow than red on him.

Secondly, I was told he is a boy...but he looks more girl to me. However, I have NO idea how old he is, and I'm not sure at what age/size you can accurately sex a redfoot. He is about 5".

Thank you for any help I was going to rehome him in a warmer climate but I'm rather smitten and I'm not sure I can do it lol. He's VERY friendly. However I live in a very cold climate (North Dakota). My torts have a large indoor room temperature controlled just for them though...but am I being unfair to keep him?


ONE last question...I have read the redfoots don't need UVB...is this accurate? All my torts have Powersun bulbs for heat/uvb.

 

[Kristina]

Definitely a Redfoot, and too small to sex for sure

I live in northern Michigan, and I have 5 Redfoots, ranging from 4" to 14". Yes, it can be done, and no, I don't think that it is cruel, as long as they get some outside time during the warmer months Redfoots don't need it super hot, anyway. Mine go out as soon as it stays above 50 at night and gets at least 70 during the day.

I personally do not use UV bulbs for my Redfoots. In my experience they get enough D3 from the protein and mushrooms in their diet. It is personal preference, but I am pretty sure that a powersun would be overkill and too bright for his eyes. A tube florescent would be more appropriate if that is what you choose to do.

Keep your little one

 

[lynnedit]

Good advice that, and I think he/she is saying 'I am happy here'.
Temp wise, the Redfoot MAY need the baseline temp a bit warmer than the Med torts. So you might have to keep the warm room temp set for your Russians and Greeks, and supplement with a bit of extra heat for your Redfoot.
However, I don't keep them either, so perhaps some Redfoot owners will add info.
Oh, and did I say he is very cute?

 

[sericinda]

I have a heat bulb in the enclosure, but she (I'm calling her a she now lol) hides from it...maybe i should use a ceramic emitter instead?

I think I'm going to call "her" Apple. Then if she turns boy, I'll call her Appa lol

 

[Madkins007]

It looks like a female... so far!

Kristina and I respectfully disagree on the benefits of UVB indoors. Her animals get plenty when they are outside, so it is probably not a big deal since the vitamin D it makes in the skin is stored in the fatty tissues and that store may last for months (it is really irritating that there seems to be no real research on that). She has good growth, so things are going well for her guys!

The recommended dose of vitamin D for reptiles is between 200-2,000 Ius ("international units") a day per kilogram of tortoise (Mader, "Reptile Medicine and Surgery"). So, a 5" tort should get about 100-1,000 Ius a day.

Mushrooms that have not been exposed to UV lighting contain about 0.14 Iu/g ("International units per gram of food"). It would take about 715 grams (1.57 lbs!) of mushrooms a day to meet the needs. If the mushrooms HAVE been exposed to UV, the levels climb to 5 Iu/g, so you would only need 20 g to meet the minimum need- but farmed/grocery store mushrooms do not seem to have been exposed.

Meat is generally lower in vitamin D than people often think. The best sources are oily fishes (2-5 Iu/g). Things like liver or eggs are pretty light (0.1 to 0.3 Iu/g), and other kinds of meat are lower yet. I am not aware of any good info on vitamin D levels in most worms and bugs.

However, you get your full allotment of D from a relatively short exposure to good sunlight- generally only a few minutes a day is enough. UVB lighting is generally not as good as sunlight so probably takes a little longer.

There is an interesting study on Panther chameleons that showed that long exposures to low-levels of artificial UVB light significantly improved reproductive success- more eggs laid, more eggs hatching, and more hatchlings surviving. The study found that things worked best if all of the light the habitat got was UVB, and that only fairly low levels of UVB worked best.

This interested me, not only because of the reproductive success, but because of something we often forget. When a wild animal is exposed to any kind of light, that light contains heat and UVB as well. Basking, hiding, etc. are all done primarily for warmth, but may also be triggered by an instinctive reaction to moderating UVB exposure. It also made sense that if your entire habitat is bathed with UVB all day, that only a fairly small level would be enough.

In captivity, we often break light, heat, and UVB into separate elements and expect the animal to figure out which they need- which probably works for the light and heat needs, but apparently does not work as well for the UVB needs, as implied by the study results.

The bottom line is that lots of people do not offer UVB indoors, and seem to have perfectly good results. I cannot prove it, but based on what I have seen and read, I suspect that they would have better results (shell development, overall growth, general health, and reproductive success) if they offered appropriate UVB lighting.

 

[dabayliss]

Is it really only a few minutes a day? Like 10? I realize it doesn't help someone it North Dakota - but down here it would be quite feasible to shove the torts on the patio for ten minutes at noon even in our 'severe weather' (overnight in the 40s). If I can avoid UVB in the pen I would like too ...

 

[Madkins007]

Dabayliss- there are not a lot of hard and fast rules for UVB and sun in reptiles, but the general consensus is at least an hour a week over several sessions.

The problem with just putting them out is that it is stressful. Ideally, they would have a nice 'playpen' they could use for a while with hides and shade and choices... but I do know of at least one author who just holds his in the sunlight even on rather chilly days, letting the warmth of his hands keep them safe.

 

[lynnedit]

It looks like a female... so far!

Kristina and I respectfully disagree on the benefits of UVB indoors. Her animals get plenty when they are outside, so it is probably not a big deal since the vitamin D it makes in the skin is stored in the fatty tissues and that store may last for months (it is really irritating that there seems to be no real research on that). She has good growth, so things are going well for her guys!

The recommended dose of vitamin D for reptiles is between 200-2,000 Ius ("international units") a day per kilogram of tortoise (Mader, "Reptile Medicine and Surgery"). So, a 5" tort should get about 100-1,000 Ius a day.

Mushrooms that have not been exposed to UV lighting contain about 0.14 Iu/g ("International units per gram of food"). It would take about 715 grams (1.57 lbs!) of mushrooms a day to meet the needs. If the mushrooms HAVE been exposed to UV, the levels climb to 5 Iu/g, so you would only need 20 g to meet the minimum need- but farmed/grocery store mushrooms do not seem to have been exposed.

Meat is generally lower in vitamin D than people often think. The best sources are oily fishes (2-5 Iu/g). Things like liver or eggs are pretty light (0.1 to 0.3 Iu/g), and other kinds of meat are lower yet. I am not aware of any good info on vitamin D levels in most worms and bugs.

However, you get your full allotment of D from a relatively short exposure to good sunlight- generally only a few minutes a day is enough. UVB lighting is generally not as good as sunlight so probably takes a little longer.

There is an interesting study on Panther chameleons that showed that long exposures to low-levels of artificial UVB light significantly improved reproductive success- more eggs laid, more eggs hatching, and more hatchlings surviving. The study found that things worked best if all of the light the habitat got was UVB, and that only fairly low levels of UVB worked best.

This interested me, not only because of the reproductive success, but because of something we often forget. When a wild animal is exposed to any kind of light, that light contains heat and UVB as well. Basking, hiding, etc. are all done primarily for warmth, but may also be triggered by an instinctive reaction to moderating UVB exposure. It also made sense that if your entire habitat is bathed with UVB all day, that only a fairly small level would be enough.

In captivity, we often break light, heat, and UVB into separate elements and expect the animal to figure out which they need- which probably works for the light and heat needs, but apparently does not work as well for the UVB needs, as implied by the study results.

The bottom line is that lots of people do not offer UVB indoors, and seem to have perfectly good results. I cannot prove it, but based on what I have seen and read, I suspect that they would have better results (shell development, overall growth, general health, and reproductive success) if they offered appropriate UVB lighting.

Very interesting. In humans, there is also some question of the strength of UVB based on latitude. An hour of sunlight in Atlanta is presumed to be much more effective than an hour of sunlight in Seattle, for example, due to the angle that the sun hits the earth.
Or so they say. So there are a lot more vitamin D deficient humans in the Northern latitudes than in the Southern climes.
Probably WAY more to it than that, but just to complicate things.

 

[Madkins007]

Lynnedit- There is at least one school of thought that feels that there is no usable UV in sunlight during the wintertime further north than Boston.

Latitude plays a big role in this, but on the other hand, you cannot get a vitamin D overdose from the sun (although you can get burns, cancer, etc.) so keeping them in the sun for a while to gather what feeble rays there may be is not likely to be a problem.

This also goes back to how the fat stores relate to the issue. Vitamin D stores in the fat of humans as well, and our summer exposures seem to help tide us over during the long winters in much of the northern world... assuming we get adequate exposure during the summer with all of the skin cancer concerns.

We are just kinda trying to feel our way here, trying to find the best way to care for our animals without going to extravagant lengths. Personally, I recommend not only low-level UVB indoors, but also the weekly use of a liquid vitamin D supplement along with a calcium supplement- just for insurance- but this is not based on any sorts of careful experiments or anything- just piecing together bits and pieces from lots of sources.

 

[sericinda]

I think I will put a ceramic heat emitter in ther for warmth and a strip light UVB on a few hours a day, rather than the long hours of heat and UVB the Russians and Greeks get from their power sun bulbs. seems like a happy medium?

 

[Redstrike]

I'm with Mark concerning RF's and UVB lighting - 100%. High-five Madkins, I like the way you're rollin' UVB-style! These animals are living in tropical rain forests and receiving filtered sunlight in their native habitats daily. A tropical rainforest does not have 100% canopy closure, there's openings from tree deaths and anthropogenic disturbances. Further these tortoises are distributed across much of northeastern South America, including savannah regions. My point is, regardless of their habitat, they're getting UVB exposure and basking. I run a 100-Watt MVB on one end of my enclosure and take my hatchlings outside occasionally for some UVB light before winter puts the kibosh on our outdoor excursions.

They're not nocturnal animals, I find arguments against UVB exposure to be crippled in logic. I'd strongly suggest a Mercury Vapor Bulb for the winter months, especially if your tort/torts will never see outdoor time.