Possible dehydration

Donna Shaw

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Feb 16, 2020
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Keighley
I have received some great advice on this forum in the past so hoping you can help again. My Hermann tortoise, Stella, hasn't been herself for the last 4-6 weeks and despite my best efforts I can't get her back to her normal self. She was a keen eater, basked all day, woke up in the morning and took herself off to bed at night. Over the last 4-6 weeks she has been eating less and less, been very lethargic, yawning a lot and not waking up in the morning. Over the last 2 weeks she has been burrowing down in her cold area and scratching the bottom of her tortoise table, to the point where she is wearing her toenails down quite noticeably which suggests to me she is stressed. Her eyes are also sunken and she keeps rubbing her eyes. Ive also noticed some minor skin shedding on her face and top of her head. There is no sign of an infection, her eyes don't look watery, no sneezing etc. Her mouth is pink and healthy inside. I have managed to get her to eat a little every day or 2 days, usually a small piece of cucumber, radish or strawberry. She's stopped eating her favourite foods such as plantain. Her temperatures are at 35 under her basking lamp, 24-25 at cooler side of table and 20-21 in her hide area. She has coco coir in her hide area that is kept moist, and orchid bark in her main enclosure which is sprayed twice daily. She weighs 205g and was hatched in 2019. Her tortoise table is inside a grow tent to keep her humidity up, it's usually between 70 to 90 in daytime and goes up to 99% at night. Nighttime temperature is 27 under the heat emitter and 19-20 in her hide. The only things that have changed is that I have got her a bigger cave to sleep in as she outgrew her old one. She is not getting up in the morning, not basking or very active. I was soaking her 3-4 times a week for 30 mins, I've upped this to twice daily over the last week and been using repto boost in the water over the last couple of days. The repto boost seems to have made a bit of a difference but not enough to stop me worrying. Any suggestions? Is it time to see the vet or should I try critical care? Thanks in advance
 

Sarah2020

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Please share pictures if the tortoise legs and around the neck also the enclosure and heat and light types. Eye issues can be incorrect light.

Assume you have the care sheet please read
 

Donna Shaw

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Joined
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Messages
35
Location (City and/or State)
Keighley
Please share pictures if the tortoise legs and around the neck also the enclosure and heat and light types. Eye issues can be incorrect light.

Assume you have the care sheet please read
Thanks for your reply Sarah, I have read the care sheet and I'm confident that I've got her enclosure correct. I can take some photos tomorrow when she is awake. I use this UVB strip light which is on from 7am to 7pm on timer

Her basking light is a 75w solar floodlight, I used to use a 50w however I couldn't keep the temperature at 35 with a 50w even with the basking lamp lowered a lot.

I have also used the same light but spotlight instead of floodlight
 

Tom

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I have received some great advice on this forum in the past so hoping you can help again. My Hermann tortoise, Stella, hasn't been herself for the last 4-6 weeks and despite my best efforts I can't get her back to her normal self. She was a keen eater, basked all day, woke up in the morning and took herself off to bed at night. Over the last 4-6 weeks she has been eating less and less, been very lethargic, yawning a lot and not waking up in the morning. Over the last 2 weeks she has been burrowing down in her cold area and scratching the bottom of her tortoise table, to the point where she is wearing her toenails down quite noticeably which suggests to me she is stressed. Her eyes are also sunken and she keeps rubbing her eyes. Ive also noticed some minor skin shedding on her face and top of her head. There is no sign of an infection, her eyes don't look watery, no sneezing etc. Her mouth is pink and healthy inside. I have managed to get her to eat a little every day or 2 days, usually a small piece of cucumber, radish or strawberry. She's stopped eating her favourite foods such as plantain. Her temperatures are at 35 under her basking lamp, 24-25 at cooler side of table and 20-21 in her hide area. She has coco coir in her hide area that is kept moist, and orchid bark in her main enclosure which is sprayed twice daily. She weighs 205g and was hatched in 2019. Her tortoise table is inside a grow tent to keep her humidity up, it's usually between 70 to 90 in daytime and goes up to 99% at night. Nighttime temperature is 27 under the heat emitter and 19-20 in her hide. The only things that have changed is that I have got her a bigger cave to sleep in as she outgrew her old one. She is not getting up in the morning, not basking or very active. I was soaking her 3-4 times a week for 30 mins, I've upped this to twice daily over the last week and been using repto boost in the water over the last couple of days. The repto boost seems to have made a bit of a difference but not enough to stop me worrying. Any suggestions? Is it time to see the vet or should I try critical care? Thanks in advance
That humidity is on the high side for a hermanni. I would vent the enclosure a bit. 50-70% is a good range to shoot for with a Hermanns tortoise that has a humid hide and damp substrate.

My best guess at your problem is that your tortoise knows it is fall and is preparing to shut down for hibernation. TO counter act that drive, incase the temperature a few degrees over all, and increase light duration a bit too. If your light timer is set for 12 hours, bump it up to 13 hours a day. You can also add some light. Get an LED strip or bulb in the 6500K color range and run it all day with your other lights. Bright lights, warm temps, and longer days, will hopefully convince your tortoise that it is not time to hibernate yet. If all that doesn't work, you can always hibernate your tortoise for a few weeks. This will often snap them out of it.

Soaking once daily should be enough.

I wouldn't feed fruit ever. That just upsets their stomachs.
 

Donna Shaw

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Joined
Feb 16, 2020
Messages
35
Location (City and/or State)
Keighley
That humidity is on the high side for a hermanni. I would vent the enclosure a bit. 50-70% is a good range to shoot for with a Hermanns tortoise that has a humid hide and damp substrate.

My best guess at your problem is that your tortoise knows it is fall and is preparing to shut down for hibernation. TO counter act that drive, incase the temperature a few degrees over all, and increase light duration a bit too. If your light timer is set for 12 hours, bump it up to 13 hours a day. You can also add some light. Get an LED strip or bulb in the 6500K color range and run it all day with your other lights. Bright lights, warm temps, and longer days, will hopefully convince your tortoise that it is not time to hibernate yet. If all that doesn't work, you can always hibernate your tortoise for a few weeks. This will often snap them out of it.

Soaking once daily should be enough.

I wouldn't feed fruit ever. That just upsets their stomachs.
Hi Tom, thanks so much for your reply. I haven't hibernated her previously due to her age, my experience and weight, she's only 205g and I understood that she shouldn't be hibernated until 500g at least? I'll up the timings and temperature, do my lights look OK from links I've posted above?

It's this light I'm using for uvb not the one posted above
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/r.html?...64AKA&ref_=pe_27063361_485629781_TE_item&tag=


I will stop the strawberries, it has been a daily thing just a couple of bites once a week to try and get some water/hydration into her. I'll keep up with cucumber and radishes which I know don't have much nutrient content but at least it's something she eats. I'll also try the additional light.

I'm gutted as she's done really well over the last year and has been thriving!!

I know that sometimes it's just the smallest change but it is so frustrating when you just want the best for them
 

Donna Shaw

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Something like this??
 

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Tom

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Hi Tom, thanks so much for your reply. I haven't hibernated her previously due to her age, my experience and weight, she's only 205g and I understood that she shouldn't be hibernated until 500g at least? I'll up the timings and temperature, do my lights look OK from links I've posted above?

It's this light I'm using for uvb not the one posted above
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/r.html?C=139N1T2SKF371&K=2Q96YKMM1XQQD&M=urn:rtn:msg:20210901114725a2c7e27b21f1459b933404a11070p0eu&R=1I5J19ER6SPY4&T=C&U=https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00912HWQI/ref=pe_27063361_485629781_TE_item&H=T69WCRKAYDX7QYKJ1OGB61Q64AKA&ref_=pe_27063361_485629781_TE_item&tag=


I will stop the strawberries, it has been a daily thing just a couple of bites once a week to try and get some water/hydration into her. I'll keep up with cucumber and radishes which I know don't have much nutrient content but at least it's something she eats. I'll also try the additional light.

I'm gutted as she's done really well over the last year and has been thriving!!

I know that sometimes it's just the smallest change but it is so frustrating when you just want the best for them
I see all sorts of arbitrary ages and weights for hibernation. I've always hibernated all of my temperate species of lizards, snakes and tortoises in their first year and every year. Never had a problem. I think any animal that would hibernate in the wild, should also be SAFELY and CORRECTLY hibernated in captivity. Having said that, I'll also agree that no one ever has to hibernate any tortoise species. They seem to survive and do just fine without hibernating too. What you are seeing there is nature taking its course. Even though you don't want him to hibernate, his mind and body know what time of year it is and what is supposed to happen.

Your UV tube is great. Best to use a UV meter to set the height correctly.

Don't feel gutted. This is totally normal and you'll see a flood of this sort of post here on the forum this time of year. The more Northern your attitude is, generally, the sooner you see this behavior. You've done nothing wrong and there is nothing wrong with your tortoise. Soak daily, and offer the normal leafy greens. Don't beg your tortoise to eat. He's not eating for a reason. More light and heat will curtail this behavior in some torts, while others are more persistent and really really want to hibernate. Give the light and heat a try and feel free to come back with any and all questions you might have.
 

Donna Shaw

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Joined
Feb 16, 2020
Messages
35
Location (City and/or State)
Keighley
I see all sorts of arbitrary ages and weights for hibernation. I've always hibernated all of my temperate species of lizards, snakes and tortoises in their first year and every year. Never had a problem. I think any animal that would hibernate in the wild, should also be SAFELY and CORRECTLY hibernated in captivity. Having said that, I'll also agree that no one ever has to hibernate any tortoise species. They seem to survive and do just fine without hibernating too. What you are seeing there is nature taking its course. Even though you don't want him to hibernate, his mind and body know what time of year it is and what is supposed to happen.

Your UV tube is great. Best to use a UV meter to set the height correctly.

Don't feel gutted. This is totally normal and you'll see a flood of this sort of post here on the forum this time of year. The more Northern your attitude is, generally, the sooner you see this behavior. You've done nothing wrong and there is nothing wrong with your tortoise. Soak daily, and offer the normal leafy greens. Don't beg your tortoise to eat. He's not eating for a reason. More light and heat will curtail this behavior in some torts, while others are more persistent and really really want to hibernate. Give the light and heat a try and feel free to come back with any and all questions you might have.
Thanks Tom, so helpful as always ?
 

Donna Shaw

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Donna Shaw

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Joined
Feb 16, 2020
Messages
35
Location (City and/or State)
Keighley
Please share pictures if the tortoise legs and around the neck also the enclosure and heat and light types. Eye issues can be incorrect light.

Assume you have the care sheet please read
I've attached photos as requested, let me know if you need any others ?
 

ruthiepo

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Jun 14, 2020
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364
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I see all sorts of arbitrary ages and weights for hibernation. I've always hibernated all of my temperate species of lizards, snakes and tortoises in their first year and every year. Never had a problem. I think any animal that would hibernate in the wild, should also be SAFELY and CORRECTLY hibernated in captivity. Having said that, I'll also agree that no one ever has to hibernate any tortoise species. They seem to survive and do just fine without hibernating too. What you are seeing there is nature taking its course. Even though you don't want him to hibernate, his mind and body know what time of year it is and what is supposed to happen.

Your UV tube is great. Best to use a UV meter to set the height correctly.

Don't feel gutted. This is totally normal and you'll see a flood of this sort of post here on the forum this time of year. The more Northern your attitude is, generally, the sooner you see this behavior. You've done nothing wrong and there is nothing wrong with your tortoise. Soak daily, and offer the normal leafy greens. Don't beg your tortoise to eat. He's not eating for a reason. More light and heat will curtail this behavior in some torts, while others are more persistent and really really want to hibernate. Give the light and heat a try and feel free to come back with any and all questions you might have.
Hello, that's so comforting, because our 36 year old Hermanns is doing exactly the same thing, she knows it is autumn and flatly refuses to eat, turning her head firmly aside from offered treats. She stays in her heated hut all day, turning round to bask herself in any sunshine that's going.
I bath her everyday to try to keep her hydrated. She seems to know that her stomach has to be completely empty before her big sleep. I have tried bringing her indoors to a warm environment but she determinedly makes her way outside again to her hut and dives into her nest. So I guess she knows her own business best and when she has been 4 weeks without eating I will lower her temperatures and pack her into her insulated box. When she is sleeping at 12 degrees C I will refrigerate her at 7 degrees C and keep her at that temperature until spring all being well.
It's amazing how she knows what to do even though I do try to reason with her to eat and stay in the warm!
 

Tom

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Hello, that's so comforting, because our 36 year old Hermanns is doing exactly the same thing, she knows it is autumn and flatly refuses to eat, turning her head firmly aside from offered treats. She stays in her heated hut all day, turning round to bask herself in any sunshine that's going.
I bath her everyday to try to keep her hydrated. She seems to know that her stomach has to be completely empty before her big sleep. I have tried bringing her indoors to a warm environment but she determinedly makes her way outside again to her hut and dives into her nest. So I guess she knows her own business best and when she has been 4 weeks without eating I will lower her temperatures and pack her into her insulated box. When she is sleeping at 12 degrees C I will refrigerate her at 7 degrees C and keep her at that temperature until spring all being well.
It's amazing how she knows what to do even though I do try to reason with her to eat and stay in the warm!
Yep. They know. I don't know how they know, but they always know. I don't fight them. I let them hibernate.

Here is a thread on hibernation. In post #19, I break down all the details:

In this thread, I show and explain how to use an outdoor night box with a basking lamp and ambient temperature controls to extend the "season" longer into fall, and sooner into spring:
 

Donna Shaw

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Messages
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Keighley
Hello, that's so comforting, because our 36 year old Hermanns is doing exactly the same thing, she knows it is autumn and flatly refuses to eat, turning her head firmly aside from offered treats. She stays in her heated hut all day, turning round to bask herself in any sunshine that's going.
I bath her everyday to try to keep her hydrated. She seems to know that her stomach has to be completely empty before her big sleep. I have tried bringing her indoors to a warm environment but she determinedly makes her way outside again to her hut and dives into her nest. So I guess she knows her own business best and when she has been 4 weeks without eating I will lower her temperatures and pack her into her insulated box. When she is sleeping at 12 degrees C I will refrigerate her at 7 degrees C and keep her at that temperature until spring all being well.
It's amazing how she knows what to do even though I do try to reason with her to eat and stay in the warm!
They just worry you so much don't they!! I spend half my life worrying about Stella!!
 

Donna Shaw

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Messages
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Location (City and/or State)
Keighley
Yep. They know. I don't know how they know, but they always know. I don't fight them. I let them hibernate.

Here is a thread on hibernation. In post #19, I break down all the details:

In this thread, I show and explain how to use an outdoor night box with a basking lamp and ambient temperature controls to extend the "season" longer into fall, and sooner into spring:
So today whilst soaking Stella she passed a gritty urate, it came out in 1 piece but I broke it up to see how hard it was. It does feel more stone like than soft. She passed it quite easily in the water. She's eaten a bit of kale and pak choi and taken herself back off to bury herself. I've upped her temps and light times and I'm just about a brighter bulb to be delivered. Thanks for everyone's advice ?
 

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ruthiepo

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just worry you so much don't they!! I spend half my life worrying about Stella!!
They definitely have their own ideas and agendas, fascinating creatures!!
I find giving our funny Lady a nice warm soak is a good way of solving various issues, hydrating, peeing and pooing, exercise, appetite boost,(usually) it always helps.
 

Donna Shaw

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They definitely have their own ideas and agendas, fascinating creatures!!
I find giving our funny Lady a nice warm soak is a good way of solving various issues, hydrating, peeing and pooing, exercise, appetite boost,(usually) it always helps.
She looks very cosy in her heated hut ❤
 
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