I don't think I've ever seen one of these for sale or in a zoo. Are they ever offered for sale. How much would they go for?
Thanks.
Thanks.
Ploughshare torts
- Thread starter voodoochild
- Start date
- Status
- Joined
- May 14, 2011
- Messages
- 36
They are highly endangered and not available for the pet trade in the US. The ones you see on this forum are usually in China where they are illegally imported.
They are a CITES Appendix 1 species, meaning no international trade of these animals. There is massive pressure on the surviving wild populations, and them not turning up in pet stores in the U.S. is probably a good thing.
I don't think they will be that "rare" in a couple of years. People start to breed them in asia and who knows in where other places.
Few of these will have any legal merit. Also the point is that they should exist in the wild instead of being removed from the wild to become these "breeder animals". They are one of the rarest turtles on this planet.Yellow Turtle said:
Then it is also wrong to breed in the tortoise facility like the one presented in your recent 60 minutes show. Every torts are taken from the wild and bred there. Are they returned to the wild if successfully bred?
It's just like chicken and egg, which comes up first? I'd rather people taking the rare torts from the wild if they are being serious in breeding it, even for money. There will be more and more of the so called rare species, just like what they do with radiata. Now I see radiata sellers everywhere in my country and I believe we've also got several successful radiata breeders here.
It's just like chicken and egg, which comes up first? I'd rather people taking the rare torts from the wild if they are being serious in breeding it, even for money. There will be more and more of the so called rare species, just like what they do with radiata. Now I see radiata sellers everywhere in my country and I believe we've also got several successful radiata breeders here.
You are missing a couple things here. The tortoises you mention from the 60 minute show are being produced in Madagascar, not in a basement in Chicago. There are grey areas. I understand what you are trying to say, but them being bred by whoever broke the law to get them isn't helping much. They can't just be returned due to the risk it poses to the small wild population.
Plus, radiata haven't even been bred anywhere near enough to offset the poaching of wild specimens, so how in the world could that ever happen for ploughshares? It couldn't. And thinking it could is pretty selfish in my opinion.
Plus, radiata haven't even been bred anywhere near enough to offset the poaching of wild specimens, so how in the world could that ever happen for ploughshares? It couldn't. And thinking it could is pretty selfish in my opinion.
If they being produced in Madagascar, then they should have been taken also from the wild right? Sorry I don't watch the show, but it's just the same thing as other rare animals being bred in the zoo somewhere in the world and then finally returned to its original habitat for me. Many zoos are doing it.
Also how do you figure the right statistic of poaching versus breeding? You might get some figure in lawful country like US or Europe, but how you know the breeding condition in Asia? Radiata has been high valued all over the world, and breeders are not that fast to make them flood the market all at once to reduce pricing. And I don't think it's that easy to get torts out of madagascar now, as far as I know. No more wild catch torts from madagascar, more over ynips, are exported almost already like several years to my country. So how we still get all those radiata from and in similar hatclings size? They all come from breeders...
Well we have different opinion about ynips and I don't want to debate it here. I trust they will be bred more and more and sold just like radiata. People do have plenty resources to do that. Lawful or not, that will happen.
Also how do you figure the right statistic of poaching versus breeding? You might get some figure in lawful country like US or Europe, but how you know the breeding condition in Asia? Radiata has been high valued all over the world, and breeders are not that fast to make them flood the market all at once to reduce pricing. And I don't think it's that easy to get torts out of madagascar now, as far as I know. No more wild catch torts from madagascar, more over ynips, are exported almost already like several years to my country. So how we still get all those radiata from and in similar hatclings size? They all come from breeders...
Well we have different opinion about ynips and I don't want to debate it here. I trust they will be bred more and more and sold just like radiata. People do have plenty resources to do that. Lawful or not, that will happen.
Anthony P said:
Hi Anthony,
Please have a trip to either Asia or Europe, you will be surprised how many radiated over there and the price. Because of US's CBW permit system, this restricts the flow of radiated in US. Please read an article from TSA--radiated is next Sulcata!
View attachment 34214
Pls refer to pic posted - pic taken in Thailand !!
One can easily encounter hundreds if not thousand of small size Radiated ie below 5" for at least 6-9 mths of the year ( any given year )
CB or WC if WC how ? Please teach me !!
Radiated is the next Sulcata highly unlikely maybe due to Radiated not as prolific ? Even less likely the Yniphora due to both sp producing significantly less eggs per breeding Female !!
By the way , I breed all 3 of the species i mention above so i know what i am typing, i do records too .
Cheers
View attachment 34215
Pls refer to pic posted - pic taken in Thailand !!
One can easily encounter hundreds if not thousand of small size Radiated ie below 5" for at least 6-9 mths of the year ( any given year )
CB or WC if WC how ? Please teach me !!
Radiated is the next Sulcata highly unlikely maybe due to Radiated not as prolific ? Even less likely the Yniphora due to both sp producing significantly less eggs per breeding Female !!
By the way , I breed all 3 of the species i mention above so i know what i am typing, i do records too .
Cheers
View attachment 34215
My point was that how things are going in your range countries with radiata obviously isn't really helping, since animals are constantly being poached to curb the demand around the world. Saying things are great in one area is a terrific thing, but it's like people in a sociology class saying the world is one way because of what their high school is like. Thinking globally, there is still a high demand, and tortoises are still being poached..
It is obviously a good thing when animals become extinct in the wild, like the Vietnamese Pond Turtle, and there is a lot of success in captive breeding to help keep the opportunity for a return to the wild alive.
It is obviously a good thing when animals become extinct in the wild, like the Vietnamese Pond Turtle, and there is a lot of success in captive breeding to help keep the opportunity for a return to the wild alive.
So I got interested in the 60 minutes show mentioned above for the ynips conservation and just watched it.
After watching it, I would say kuddos to the great conservation effort for the ynips in Madagascan by Durrell.
Unfortunately I feel the rest of the story are just a show for Eric. Holding a ynip and other torts on 1 hand above your shoulder certainly shivers me. Obvious fake narration during ynip nesting scene, and how Chinese will sometimes puncture shell of spider tort to eat the liver...
Eric really should have traveled to Asia to watch for himself before creating any story telling and become public watch...
If it breaks the law to get CITES torts, then how he keeps those 11 ynips in the states? Did the ynips enter US "legally"? Yes some might say he gets it from the zoo for conservation and trying to breed them. Well, the show certainly doesn't mention anything about his own success in breeding the ynips. For people who really cares so much for ynips, he should just send them back to Durrell conservation in Madagascan, which obviously has great success in breeding ynips, unless he's keeping them for pets like people in Asia
Anthony, with respect, can you give the proof of any kind of data or investigation regarding how radiata from Madagascan are being poached to supply the world's demand? I believe for now, torts market for Asia is the biggest in the world and your way of saying world's demand certainly pointing to Asian countries.
I think you just don't learn and accept the fact that there are big supply of radiata coming from the world and even Asian own breeders...
After watching it, I would say kuddos to the great conservation effort for the ynips in Madagascan by Durrell.
Unfortunately I feel the rest of the story are just a show for Eric. Holding a ynip and other torts on 1 hand above your shoulder certainly shivers me. Obvious fake narration during ynip nesting scene, and how Chinese will sometimes puncture shell of spider tort to eat the liver...
Eric really should have traveled to Asia to watch for himself before creating any story telling and become public watch...
If it breaks the law to get CITES torts, then how he keeps those 11 ynips in the states? Did the ynips enter US "legally"? Yes some might say he gets it from the zoo for conservation and trying to breed them. Well, the show certainly doesn't mention anything about his own success in breeding the ynips. For people who really cares so much for ynips, he should just send them back to Durrell conservation in Madagascan, which obviously has great success in breeding ynips, unless he's keeping them for pets like people in Asia
Anthony, with respect, can you give the proof of any kind of data or investigation regarding how radiata from Madagascan are being poached to supply the world's demand? I believe for now, torts market for Asia is the biggest in the world and your way of saying world's demand certainly pointing to Asian countries.
I think you just don't learn and accept the fact that there are big supply of radiata coming from the world and even Asian own breeders...
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2012
- Messages
- 5,232
- Location (City and/or State)
- South of Southern California, but not Mexico
Hi, a few facts here.
The ynips Eric has in the US were legally imported from an illegal groups found where(?) China, so Eric has legal animals because a person traded them illegally in China. Sorta blows the whole thing into bizarre land.
The history of the animals is critical to those animals becoming individuals themselves, or even their progeny, as sources for those animals being held in non-institutional settings. Eric is an institutional setting. Kadoorie is one in China that receive the animals that the Chinese officials confiscate, so it is a system well in use in both countries.
Within the US some species native or not have restricted trade from one state to another. This is a very different matter than trade from outside the US to inside the US. The radiated becoming sucata issue will not happen unless importation into te US is eased up, which is not likely, but possible - at least as it concerns animals going into private hands, not institutions.
There were several inaccuracies in the 60 mintes segment, if you want to take on the role of a natural history fact checker, but that was not the point of the segment at all. The point of that segment was to establish in the general publics' awareness that even not so glamourous animals are threatened with extinction (not a tiger). Right now in the US there is a huge up-swelling of wealthy individuals spending alot of personal money on animals for their own sake.
WWF was established by wealth for hunting reserves, and that has eventually become for conservation, the current trend is for conservation from the get go.
It is not the least bit likely that legal ynips will be available for privately held pets. Quite the opposite, it is more likely that more and more nontraditional pets (cats and dogs) will become illegal to own here in the US.
For what it is worth Eric has traveled very extensively, and seen the gross neglect of law enforcement and regard for wildlife laws all over the globe. Frankly if you read some of what he has written, that is what is in part his driver/motivation for the news-piece you saw on 60 minutes.
Will
The ynips Eric has in the US were legally imported from an illegal groups found where(?) China, so Eric has legal animals because a person traded them illegally in China. Sorta blows the whole thing into bizarre land.
The history of the animals is critical to those animals becoming individuals themselves, or even their progeny, as sources for those animals being held in non-institutional settings. Eric is an institutional setting. Kadoorie is one in China that receive the animals that the Chinese officials confiscate, so it is a system well in use in both countries.
Within the US some species native or not have restricted trade from one state to another. This is a very different matter than trade from outside the US to inside the US. The radiated becoming sucata issue will not happen unless importation into te US is eased up, which is not likely, but possible - at least as it concerns animals going into private hands, not institutions.
There were several inaccuracies in the 60 mintes segment, if you want to take on the role of a natural history fact checker, but that was not the point of the segment at all. The point of that segment was to establish in the general publics' awareness that even not so glamourous animals are threatened with extinction (not a tiger). Right now in the US there is a huge up-swelling of wealthy individuals spending alot of personal money on animals for their own sake.
WWF was established by wealth for hunting reserves, and that has eventually become for conservation, the current trend is for conservation from the get go.
It is not the least bit likely that legal ynips will be available for privately held pets. Quite the opposite, it is more likely that more and more nontraditional pets (cats and dogs) will become illegal to own here in the US.
For what it is worth Eric has traveled very extensively, and seen the gross neglect of law enforcement and regard for wildlife laws all over the globe. Frankly if you read some of what he has written, that is what is in part his driver/motivation for the news-piece you saw on 60 minutes.
Will
Seems to me that we should hedge our bets. Obviously you don't want to take these torts from the wild but if it were possible for private collectors to breed these torts and offer them for sale then I'd think their cb populations would have to "skyrocket" relatively speaking. How much would a ploughshare hatchling go for? 2000, 3000, more? That would be a big incentive to produce. Maybe I'm a pessimist but I don't think these torts will survive very far into the future in their wild habitat. I don't think very many species will ultimately survive. Not that we shouldn't try to help them but we should be prepared for this. Better to have them in captivity than extinct, right?
I'm just a novice but that is my thinking.
I'm just a novice but that is my thinking.
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2012
- Messages
- 5,232
- Location (City and/or State)
- South of Southern California, but not Mexico
Hi Voodoochild,
I agree with hedging bets, and so agree in principle with what you are saying. I too have also seen overzealous law enforcement "destrory" well managed private (secret) collections, so the compromise is to support those in the wild and in captivity efforts that are less liable to be destroyed, the hedge is the captive. I tend to agree that a country with high poverty will enforce laws in as much as it mean getting handout from developed countries. I have been in those kinds of negotiations myself.
On the other hand, the idea of overwhelming enforcement has worked too. Bearded Dragons is a good example, they have not been legally imported into the US outside of an institution, not had any institution let them out for a long time until well after they were in pet shops everywhere. Fly River turtles also fall into this category if you want a chelonian example. Law enforcement people were overwhelmed on both fronts, and now it would seem the backlash is making these kinds of pets illegal via other channels, like human health, invasive species, disease vectors for agriculture etc.
There has long been rumors that the Yellow toad of central America is bred in captivity, but in secret, if those who have them came out who may have them, they would be made criminals. What to do?
As for the wild animals, one major climatic catastrophe, and the entire wild yniph population would be gone, as well as the Durrell center there. The people who safe guard geometric is RSA learned that once again. There is not a simple answer.
Will
I agree with hedging bets, and so agree in principle with what you are saying. I too have also seen overzealous law enforcement "destrory" well managed private (secret) collections, so the compromise is to support those in the wild and in captivity efforts that are less liable to be destroyed, the hedge is the captive. I tend to agree that a country with high poverty will enforce laws in as much as it mean getting handout from developed countries. I have been in those kinds of negotiations myself.
On the other hand, the idea of overwhelming enforcement has worked too. Bearded Dragons is a good example, they have not been legally imported into the US outside of an institution, not had any institution let them out for a long time until well after they were in pet shops everywhere. Fly River turtles also fall into this category if you want a chelonian example. Law enforcement people were overwhelmed on both fronts, and now it would seem the backlash is making these kinds of pets illegal via other channels, like human health, invasive species, disease vectors for agriculture etc.
There has long been rumors that the Yellow toad of central America is bred in captivity, but in secret, if those who have them came out who may have them, they would be made criminals. What to do?
As for the wild animals, one major climatic catastrophe, and the entire wild yniph population would be gone, as well as the Durrell center there. The people who safe guard geometric is RSA learned that once again. There is not a simple answer.
Will
Here in the UK I've never seen Ploughshares for sale. Radiateds are not common, but usually groups will pop up for sale about every two/three months for about £2-3k for sub-adults.
voodoochild said:
How much a ploughshare hatchling would sell for would depend alot on what part of the world you are in. In the U.S. Im sure you would pay alot more than 2 or 3 thousand
CITES I animals are allowable to be imported/exported. It is however a different animal. Most of what is allowed in for commercial trade is CITES II. There are certain allowances for each species to be legally imported into the united states. CITES II requires only a valid export from country being exported from. CITES I requires Export/Import validity paperwork. USFW (Unites States Fish and Wildlife) has to approve the permit before importation happens. Yniphoria is only allowed to be imported under certain scenarios. Behler recieved the females because they are AZA accredited facility, posses Endangered Species permit for Yniphoria, and are on a list(very small list) of approved facilities to supervise these animals. Given the amount of funding, support, and conservation efforts they have done in Madagascar which is backed by USFW. They have shown great results in species propagation of Radiata, so have been "knighted" to take on the Yniphoria efforts. These animals they aquired were already poached from Madagascar and sent to them with the hope of a future. Dr.Zovikian also donated his male to Behler to sire any of the 8 females that were sent to them.
Will said:Hi, a few facts here.
The ynips Eric has in the US were legally imported from an illegal groups found where(?) China, so Eric has legal animals because a person traded them illegally in China. Sorta blows the whole thing into bizarre land.
That's the point in my statement. While it seems that Eric legally owns his animals. The way the animals get out of Madagascan was indeed illegal and people only pointing out that a certain country in Asia receives smuggles animals.
The history of the animals is critical to those animals becoming individuals themselves, or even their progeny, as sources for those animals being held in non-institutional settings. Eric is an institutional setting. Kadoorie is one in China that receive the animals that the Chinese officials confiscate, so it is a system well in use in both countries.
People is smart, rich people is even smarter in manipulating laws for their sakes.
Within the US some species native or not have restricted trade from one state to another. This is a very different matter than trade from outside the US to inside the US. The radiated becoming sucata issue will not happen unless importation into te US is eased up, which is not likely, but possible - at least as it concerns animals going into private hands, not institutions.
It will happen when the breeders have bred more and more radiata in the states. It's just a matter of time there and I will be happy when it happens. More personal will be able to care for this beautiful tortoise.
There were several inaccuracies in the 60 mintes segment, if you want to take on the role of a natural history fact checker, but that was not the point of the segment at all. The point of that segment was to establish in the general publics' awareness that even not so glamourous animals are threatened with extinction (not a tiger). Right now in the US there is a huge up-swelling of wealthy individuals spending alot of personal money on animals for their own sake.
That makes sense, the money gotta go somewhere
Seriously I believe people in US are much more aware than Asian countries without the need of some 60 minutes show for a certain species. For instance, if one day someone who is totally unknowledgeable of tortoise happen to buy a yniphora in US. How difficult is it gonna be for him to get information on this species? Information flows very fast there compares to here. I'd rather watch this kind of show in national geographic, as at least it feels more educative and sharing more accurate information to me compares to this 1 man show..
WWF was established by wealth for hunting reserves, and that has eventually become for conservation, the current trend is for conservation from the get go.
I support this get go thing. I think it's good for rare animals conservation, but then people will again start talking about taking rare animals from the wild. Again, chicken and egg, really...
It is not the least bit likely that legal ynips will be available for privately held pets. Quite the opposite, it is more likely that more and more nontraditional pets (cats and dogs) will become illegal to own here in the US.
Imagine that!
For what it is worth Eric has traveled very extensively, and seen the gross neglect of law enforcement and regard for wildlife laws all over the globe. Frankly if you read some of what he has written, that is what is in part his driver/motivation for the news-piece you saw on 60 minutes.
Then for his vast information and traveling activities, Eric fails to notice that like more than 60% of world's countries are categorized as developing and poor countries, more over in Asia and Africa. Then how can you expect those governments to focus on pets' issues when there are still major poverty, famine, millions of jobless people problems out there in their countries.
Will
tortadise said:
Kelly, I totally support what Behler is doing regardless of the motive behind. More rare tortoise bred is always a wonderful thing to me.
I just feel a pity that such a rich and looking good conservation facility only manage to breed radiata and several rare turtles as put in their site, while a lot of personal breeders have bred those same species long time ago
I believe with their resource, Behler will eventually be able to breed their own ynips. I really expect it to happen much faster than what have been done by personal breeders, which happen to have much less resource and facility compare to Behler. I feel it as a kind of irony
We will see how they fare. The females they have are not mature yet. Dr.Zovikian did give his male to them which is mature. Hope thwy do well at it.
- Status
Similar threads
