please help! :(

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lgrande

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Hi, I'm new to this forum but i have a 7 week old sulcata hatchling and i need help.

My current hatchling is not the first sulcata i have had, i rescued a hatchling earlier this year who had been extremely poorly taken care of and was chronically dehydrated. The first sulcata, while in my care, never once ate on his own, i was syringe feeding him 2-3 times a day and taking him to the vet every couple days so that she too could monitor the poor little guy's health/improvement. After a couple weeks he seemed to be doing much better until one night his whole body swelled up due to renal system failure cause his organs were no longer producing any blood proteins. I rushed him to the vet (my reptile vet is also a 24-hour exotic animal emergency room) but he passed away shortly after we arrived and i was heartbroken.

Three weeks ago, I was given a 4 week old sulcata hatchling by the reptile society/rescue that i belong to. All i know about any previous care for him was that some mother bought him from a pet shop for her son not known anything about the species. After she did a little research (AFTER bring the tortoise home, might i add) she discovered the life expectancy and eventual adult size of sulcatas and quickly brought him over to the rescue. The next day I had him in my home and he seemed to be in great health...incredibly healthy appetite, pretty active and playful, liked (and still likes) to bob his head around while exploring something or someone. He stayed like this for about two weeks until a few days ago his activity level started to decline, along with his appetite. I have him in a three foot long enclosure, with a wet box on the cool end. He has a water dish that he is able to soak in, the substrate i was using was coco fiber, his hot spot was at about 90 degrees during the day and a little cooler at night. He also has UVB light on him 12+ hours a day and has always (in my care at least) recieved daily soakings in lukewarm-warm water. I was feeding him a diet of 60-70% grass that i grew inside my home to ensure there were no pesticides or fertilizers and 40-30% leafy greens.

At first, he was spending all of his time under the heat lamp and starting having trouble opening one of his eyes. His shell has always had some 'give' to it, and this seems to have increased. His shell doesnt seem mushy or anything but its definitely softer than it was. He also wasnt eating nearly as much and seemed lethargic. Recognizing those symptoms from my first sulcata, I began soaking him in unflavored pedialyte with a little warm water mixed in daily, syringe feeding him )the same critical care herbivore formula i had used with the first sulcata), I replaced his heat bulb with a higher wattage bulb ( so now his hot spot gets to between 99 and 101 degrees during the day), I added a few cellulose sponges to try and keep the humidity level of the enclosure higher, including one in his wet box, and i have been spraying the entire enclosure more times throughout the day as needed while monitoring humidity gauges on both ends. I also introduced a few new foods to try and entice him to eat including carrot, strawberries, different greens, and cactus.

After a couple days with slightly altered conditions, he no longer has trouble opening his eyes, and after being in his wet box for a bit or soaking for a while he'll start to move around a bit and will even eat some strawberry or a little greens on his own. I am still syringe feeding him and have been monitoring him closely but today he seemed even stranger. This morning when i woke up he was moving around a little and when he came out of his wet box he not only has had his eyes open all the way pretty much constantly all day in sort of a blank stare, but just continued to stretch his legs out as much as he can. when i took him out of his enclosure and set him down on a flat surface he wasnt able to stand because he continued to stretch his legs out as far as he could. I called the vet who told me that this was a normal behavior, he was just trying to expose as much skin as possible so he could absorb more heat and UV rays and that many tortoises do this in the morning after waking up. After the call i put him in his enclosure under both the heat and UV bulbs but as the day goes on hes been acting weirder and weirder. First, he was biting at his front legs (not hard enough to hurt himself but not gently either) and now hes not moving at all and his limbs seem limp. Also, his eyes have been completely open all day throughout all of his odd behaviors.

Please please please please if anyone has any idea as to what's going on, any advice on changing his enclosure or what to do at all I am so worried and my heart is breaking because i fear the worst. I have no idea how he went from seeming very healthy to the state he is in now, i have tried to be so careful and diligent about his health, especially after what the first hatchling went through, but somehow my little guy and i seem to be right back where i was earlier this year. please help!
 

Skyler Nell

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Hi there! So sorry to hear about your tortoise being sick.
Are there any other symptoms you're seeing?
Swollen eyes or runny nose?
Is he going to the bathroom?

Posting pictures might be helpful!
There are lots of experts on here, that will help.

If it was me I would get advice from another vet because the symptoms you're describing don't seem like "normal, this just happens when they're waking up" symptoms.

If he is thrusting his arms and legs in and out it could be because he is having trouble breathing.

Cold and damp is a very bad combo, you probably don't want it too humid for him when he's sick.

Best of Luck!
Hopefully an expert will be along soon with even more advice.
p.s. you must be very careful with syringe feeding, it can easily hurt and damage their insides. You can try soaking in carrot baby food mixed with warm water. Syringe feeding is usually not suggested unless there are absolutely no other options, as they can live quite awhile without eating.
 

Sweetness_bug

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I would maybee try to find a different vet for a second opinion. Also do you think maybee he might be getting to much water or soaking? I have a 40 pound sulcatta and I do not soak him daily. I soak him about 2 or three times a week. I know babies need more, but i am also thinking that maybee the soaking it keeping him colder and thats why he feels the need to lay out and become inactive. Are you giving him calcium?
 

Missy

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When you soak him put a heating pad under the dish to keep the water warm. I would try and raise the temps a little more and move the moist hide to the warmer side. You can also do a baby food soak, add baby food like squash and carrot to warm water. After soaks dry him because he needs to stay warm. What do you keep him in? I use plexy-glass to cover half the top so that it helps hold heat in. Sometimes no matter what you do some are just not meant to live. It sounds like you have done a lot of research and have done the best you can. Hatchlings are just so fragile. I hope he makes it. I am sure others will give you more advise.
 

lgrande

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With the syringe feeding, I have been using a very narrow rubber tipped tube to get the food in his mouth. I know force feeding can be dangerous if you arent careful so with this tortoise i havnt been doing it much, especially since every once in a while he will eat on his own. My vet suggested that i continue to do it until he is eating regularly on his own once again but i am looking for another reptile/exotics vet in my area that i can get a second opinion from. His behavior definitely does not seem normal to me and with my first tortoise i saw him doing a lot of adjusting with his legs and head after he swelled up due to difficulty breathing, but with this one im not sure what would be causing breathing problems. He's not making any strange noises and there are no bubbles from the nose and his eyes arent watery or anything and those seem to be the most common symptoms of a respiratory infection that i can find. He has always occasionally opened and closed him mouth, almost like he was biting at the air or something, and he has been doing that today aswell, probably a little more than usual. I looked his shell over pretty thoroughly and there arnt any discolorations, disformations, or spongy parts that i can see at all but his shell seems softer, almost like its thinner and when i pick him up hes got almost a more hollow feel to him that he used to have.

as for pooping, he still poops when hes soaking but the volume of poop has greatly decreased, probably because he hasnt been eating much at all. I also give him a calcium supplement with his meals.

The overall temperature of the enclosure is pretty consistently high (about 100 on the hot end and 80-85 on the cool end) so i dont think he cold, and he seems to want to be in the more humid parts because he (at least up until he stopped moving much at all) kept going into the wet box on his own or digging a little hole to get to more moisture in the substrate. Im just at a loss I have no idea whats going on :(. any idea what the biting would be about?
 

dmmj

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I am not an expert I am only offering my insight, I think if he is eating and pooping, then syringe feeding may not be needed anymore, how often does he eat on his own, syringe feeding can be stressful all by itself, I syringe fed a sick russian about a year and a half ago, but she was not eating at all, and had a RI for which she was taking meds (orally). Is his shell getting softer? If so he will probably need a vet visit, you can read all of the threads on softening shell on here to get an idea. A shell that starts to soften is never a god sign.
 

Yvonne G

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My first impression was that the baby isn't warm enough. Your personal body temperature is 98.6 degrees. That's almost 100 degrees. So when you say your baby's temp is in the 80's that might feel pretty warm to you and your body's 99 degrees, but its pretty cool for a baby reptile.

You need the spot directly under the light to be 100 to 110 degrees and it gets lower further out from the light, with it getting to the upper 70's , lower 80's on the cool side.

Your humid hide should be on the warm side, not on the cool side. Warm/wet = ok, cool/wet = bad

If you're using the spiral-type fluorescent bulb, remove it immediately. They are very hard on a baby tortoise's eyes, even causing blindness and sometimes death. I like the T-Rex Active UV/heat, but its a little hard to find right now.

Good luck with your baby. Can you shoot us some pictures of his habitat? Maybe we can see something that hasn't been described.
 

lgrande

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Well the hot side of the enclosure stays at about 100-101 degrees and i use a ceramic bulb so it stays on all the time. at night the temperature goes down a little but not by too much. i keep the wet box on the warm side so that he doesnt get cold when he goes into it and the cool sides stays at a pretty consistent 85-87 degrees. i have digital thermometers/hydrometers on both ends of the enclosure so i can monitor temperature and humidity very closely.

When hes been eating on his own its been barely a nibble once or twice a day. i am hopeful because at least he has some interest in the food but for the most part he hasnt had anything of significance to eat which was why i was giving him the critial care formula. after eating the formula he seems to perk up a tiny bit so hopefully its giving him some energy but i havnt been doing it often at all because i dont want to stress him out.

As for his UV bulb, it isnt one of the spiral ones but someone else had suggested actually switching to one of the spiral ones. is that bad advice? i DEFINITELY dont wanna do anything thats going to make the problem worse.

Also, I got a second opinion for a different vet who did not believe that his stretching was normal behavior so he gave my tortoise a vitamin shot and some fluids and told me to keep offering him tasty treats to entice him like strawberries or fruit/vegetable baby foods and to syringe feed if he still wont eat. This vet also did not seem to think the problem was a respiratory infection so he didnt administer any antibiotics or anything and i am going to keep the vet updated on his condition and syptoms and he has a follow up appoitment in a few days.

i have a couple pictures of him when he was doing really well and eating like crazy off hand so ill upload those just for fun. In these pictures (before i switched him to the coco fiber substrate because i thought it would hold in moisture better) I had him on the reptile carpet stuff that some pet stores sell. The reptile carpet was recommended to me by one vet for hatchlings because its easier for them to get around and theres no risk of them eating it and becoming impacted, but then i talked to one of the adminitrators of the herp society that i belong to who deals mostly with tortoises who told me to switch to something like the coco fiber so that he could burrow and it would hold more moisture. My sulcata was definitely in much better health when he was on the reptile carpet than he is now with the dirt type substrate, should i switch back? or could that just be a coincidence? I havnt been able to find much information on the internet one way or the other if the carpet is recommended by anyone else or if his new substrate is better suited for him but at this point i am running out of options in terms of what i can do to help my little guy get better. i dont want to see him suffer at all, im trying to do whatever i can to move him into becoming a healthy, happy little tortoise. :(





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here are the pictures i was talking about of my little guy when i had him on the reptile carpet when he had a pretty healthy appetite and was pretty active. he's such a cutie and really fell in love fast with this little guy and his (previously) spunky personality. Hopefully something starts working soon to turn him around :/
 

lgrande

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Now that it is getting much colder outside, i havnt been able to take him out very often but i jump at the chance to take him outside on nice sunny warm days which used to give him a lot of energy but a couple days ago we had a really really nice day and i took him out but it didnt seem to have any effect at all on him. and as far as the calcium goes i use the reptical with vitamin D3
 

Yvonne G

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No more vitamin shots! Most vets don't understand the dosage and it sometimes causes the tortoise's skin to slough off. You can get vitamins into the tortoise much easier than injections.
 

lgrande

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Thank you to everyone who posted to this thread, you were a big help and i really appreciate it. :( Unfortunately, my little guy didn't make it...he passed away this evening but neither vet knows why just yet. Hopefully, somehow we'll be able to figure out what caused his health problems so in the future this can either be prevented or corrected. I did learn some valuable information, today, from this thread, but sadly enough, the vet just doesn't think there was anything more that could have been done..
 

Becki

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Gosh I'm sorry. That's just heartbreaking. I hope you won't give up on tortoises, you sound like a conscientious owner.
 
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Maggie Cummings

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Neither one of those Vets sounded very good to me. No knowledgeable tortoise Vet gives them vitamin shots. Hatchlings are very hard to raise and should be left to experienced keepers. Some are just not meant to make it. I am sorry you had to go thru this terrible trial. But like I said, hatchlings are very hard to raise and when you get one like yours they have what's called 'failure to thrive syndrome'. I wish we could have helped you. But now you know about the vitamin shots and the spiral bulbs and other things. This was a learning experience for you, as hard as it was. I am so sorry.
 
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