Pinky mice

[terryo]

I don't think you are a bad person for doing this, but if it bothers you, you should look into in a little more thoroughly, because Vets have been know to give lots of wrong answers. Unfortunately I don't think there was any pain studies done on pinkie's. (I could be wrong..I'm wrong about a lot of things) My thoughts are this..they do research on mice looking for cures for humans. Why?? If a human's insides are different than a rats or a mouse, they why do they do research on them for cures for humans? If a premature human infant is known to feel pain, why not a premature mouse, being they experiment on them for our benefit. I personally think there are lots of different things out there that supply protein without watching my tortoise chewing on a tiny pinkie...Yuk! Not saying I'm right and you're wrong, just saying..Everyone is different. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Tom]

Would your animals eat frozen/thawed mice? I have heard snake owners say their snakes will refuse f/t rodents because they do not move, but since pinky mice don't really move anyways I would imagine your redfoots would eat a f/t pinky.

I guess this is why I chose a Russian tortoise- I don't have to worry about feeding them protein!

I've been using frozen/thawed for decades. Its much cheaper to buy or produce them in bulk and save them for later. Rarely, on a difficult snake, I'll resort to live, but only long enough to get them on to pre-killed.

 

[matt41gb]

I think comparing humans to pinkies are too very different things. Human babies are much more advanced than a mouse baby. This is my theory on the matter. Mice have babies at such a high rate they aren't born fully aware of their senses. Eyes, ears,bones, and nervous system aren't fully developed. They have so many young because only a few will survive to adulthood to breed (that's where the "survival of the fittest comes into play.") Humans, on the other hand in most cases only have one offspring at a time with a long developmental gestation period. A human baby, although helpless at birth is much more developed than a pinkie mouse. I believe human babies and pinkies at the same developmental stage do feel pain, but you just can't compare the two since mammals between species are so different.

-Matt

 

[jblayza]

I agree w/ Matt, a human baby is more developed at birth imo.

 

[terryo]

I agree, but I wasn't talking about a full term baby. I was talking about a preemie (born prematurely before it's due date). That's why I don't understand why they would do experiments on mice or rats to find cures for humans....for exactly the reason you stated Matt.
But...we still don't know if the pinkies feel pain. We are only going on what the Vet said. A Vet can only give an educated guess, since there were no studies done on pain in pinkies...how do we know? Well...I guess we'll never know.We are all different...some of us have stronger stomach's that others. I couldn't do it, but I'm squeamish about a lot of things.

 

[fifthdawn]

From what I know, the animals choosen for each experiment done fit the organ or body system the drug affects. Certain animals have liver functions more similar to humans and others have its similarity elsewhere. I think pigs are most similar to humans, but to get significant results, the sample has to be large. Mice reproduce much quicker than pigs do so thats probably why they are used in experiments that requires large sample sizes.

I'm not sure how much of the nervous system is developed. but if they have nerves developed already, then its probably wrong to feed it to your redfoots. But if their nervous system hasn't even developed yet, then it should be fine. We can know that they don't feel pain through analogical reasoning and understanding of how we feel pain, if their nerves hasn't developed yet, they shouldn't feel any pain, how else can you carry the pain signal for the brain to interpret? Even if the bite is on the head, the pinky will not feel pain if there is a brain there. Brain has no neural connections and thus won't recieve any pain signals. When brain surgery is performed on humans, sometimes their left awake.

 

[Kymiie]

Oh my gosh I was like WOAH when i read this!
Here in the UK as far as i know they only feed crickets etc live... not pinkies. They are frozen and then people have to defrost them! I wont have a snake or gheko or lizard I wouldnt have the guts to feed it, So cruel, but I guess you cant leave the tort hungry now xxx

 

[matt41gb]

I get my pinkies from a feed store about a mile away from my house. I bought 20 live pinkies for $5.00. Last time I bought them at Pet Land and spent $16.00 for like 6 of them. My dragons need good protein that crickets, mealworms, just don't have. In the spring and summer I feed them various insects, earthworms, ect.. It's not mean, or cruel to feed pinkies to anything. It's not cruel to feed a rabbit to a python. These are natural things that happen all the time. I don't get people that get all worked up over this, and give undeveloped mice so much emotion. It's quick and virtually painless. They don't have the presents of mind to know what's going on. I don't like it very much, but in the winter I don't have much of a choice.

-Matt

 

[jblayza]

Matt,

I agree it is not cruel or mean, it is the food chain of life. There is no such thing as F/T in nature, and everything needs to eat to survive. Why is it ok to feed live fish to aquatic turtles, but it is such a big deal to feed a live pinkie to a tortoise or snake? Rats and mice are pests in my eyes, but I don't criticize people that keep them as pets and to me that is more gross than feedin them to other animals that need them to survive. To each their own, but stop telling this guy he is cruel or mean for giving his tort the nutrition he needs to ensure it is healthy.

 

[terryo]

I never said Matt was cruel or mean, and I don't think anyone else did. I just said it wasn't for me and everyone is different. We were only discussing how we each felt differently about feeding live pinkies. No one is being criticized for doing it.

 

[jblayza]

Some are saying that it is cruel to feed live pinkies which implies the person doing so is cruel. Criticize can mean merely to evaluate without necessarily finding fault; however, usually the word implies the expression of disapproval. Those who did not mention cruelty or disapproval, my statement did not pertain to you.

 

[fifthdawn]

Some are saying that it is cruel to feed live pinkies which implies the person doing so is cruel. Criticize can mean merely to evaluate without necessarily finding fault; however, usually the word implies the expression of disapproval. Those who did not mention cruelty or disapproval, my statement did not pertain to you.

I get my pinkies from a feed store about a mile away from my house. I bought 20 live pinkies for $5.00. Last time I bought them at Pet Land and spent $16.00 for like 6 of them. My dragons need good protein that crickets, mealworms, just don't have. In the spring and summer I feed them various insects, earthworms, ect.. It's not mean, or cruel to feed pinkies to anything. It's not cruel to feed a rabbit to a python. These are natural things that happen all the time. I don't get people that get all worked up over this, and give undeveloped mice so much emotion. It's quick and virtually painless. They don't have the presents of mind to know what's going on. I don't like it very much, but in the winter I don't have much of a choice.

-Matt

Not going to say your cruel or anything. I'm totally fine with feeding pinkie because of their developemental stage. I am however, not too fond to feeding rabbits to snakes, I'm not going to tell you not too, I'm simply giving you some thought to think about. I don't think the argument of "it is natural" justify us, humans, aiding in the process. Just because something is natural doesn't mean it is just or good. Humans have hedonistic tendency, yet, our society is structured where it prevents us from doing whatever we want. Some people criticize how limited in freedom we have in society, yet no one will argue for complete and total freedom even though that would be most natural.

Matt,

I agree it is not cruel or mean, it is the food chain of life. There is no such thing as F/T in nature, and everything needs to eat to survive. Why is it ok to feed live fish to aquatic turtles, but it is such a big deal to feed a live pinkie to a tortoise or snake? Rats and mice are pests in my eyes, but I don't criticize people that keep them as pets and to me that is more gross than feedin them to other animals that need them to survive. To each their own, but stop telling this guy he is cruel or mean for giving his tort the nutrition he needs to ensure it is healthy.

I don't think we should value some animals over others or more specially value their life over others just because they're pest. This is based on emotions which we know usually doesn't lead to any good. If this kind of thinking is okay, it justifies humans attacking other nations because of how we view them.

 

[ChiKat]

Rats and mice are pests in my eyes, but I don't criticize people that keep them as pets and to me that is more gross than feedin them to other animals that need them to survive.

Wow, owning a pet rat is gross? That just makes me sad that you've never known what it's like to have a pet rat! They're like little puppies

 

[matt41gb]

I love rats as pets! I used to keep them but my wife says "no rodents in the house", Ha!

 

[jblayza]

If this kind of thinking is okay, it justifies humans attacking other nations because of how we view them.
[/quote]


You gotta be kidding me LMAO! Sounds like a personal problem to me if you view humans in other nations the same way i view rats. They're like puppies?
Can you tell me then were I can purchase a puppy trap or puppy poison? (sarcastic) My point is if rats are like puppies then why is it you can purchase the means to rid of rats and not puppies? To each their own, I don't see rats being like puppies or humans, call me weird. And i have owned rats, I bred them for a long time for feeders but they stunk so I decided to just purchase them instead.

 

[fifthdawn]

Because the value of each animal is socially constructed and its obviously the case here. Much like how some countries think its horrible to eat dogs, yet we eat cows and pigs. Other countries don't see dogs being ranked as high as cows. Rats from a social view point is considered a pest because they are an invasive species. I own geckos and certain species are considered invasive. I wouldn't kill geckos and not feel bad about it just because emotionally, I think their stinky creatures.

I'm betting if I have 100 kids and I raise them up in a premade society where rats are kept as pet and there is an overabundance of dogs running around, just by shaping the media giving negative associations on dogs and positive association on rats, there would probably dog traps to keep dogs out of peoples yard, especially if theres an overabundance.

Would you not consider bears worthy animals? There are certainly bear traps made. Does that justify me killing a bear to feed my herd of huskies. Wolves certainly attack bears in the wild. Can I justify it by saying its natural so its okay?

 

[jejton]

I dont get the big deal. RF's eat protein in the wild - carrion mostly but live if they can catch it. I feed mine a small mouse weekly and it relishes it. I happen to feed FT because its more convinient for me and it makes no difference to the tortoise or dozen other animals I feed them to so I benefit, my pets benefit and the mice benefit by avoiding some pain. If I couldnt, or they wouldnt, eat frozen, why not live? What difference does it make if the protein is from a mouse or canned beef. Either way it came from a living animal and unlike humans, most carnivores or omnivores need that animal protein. If he were torturing the mouse, developed or not, for the sake of his own pleasure before feeding it to the tortoise, then that would be sick and cruel but he/she is not. Just my .02.

 

[fifthdawn]

I'm not against feeding pinkies because their nervous system isn't developed yet. I'm probably not against killing the animal as quick and painless and possible and feeding your pets. If you feed mice (not pinkies) or other small animals live the way it is, you might as well be tortoring it. Whats the difference between cutting each limb off intentionally and having it bitten off? If you own a boa, would you feed tortoises to them if they cost as little as mice? If not, then why would feeding mice be okay? If yes, then each animal's life is only as valuable as it financially convenient to you?

 

[jejton]

If my boa required tortoises as part of its diet, and I didnt have a cheaper, equally nutritious realistic feeder, then yes I would feed it tortoises, or I would not keep that boa. As for the difference between torturing and feeding live, well I have no intrinsic need to cut off the mouse's limbs while some animals will only eat live food. You're more than welcome to have a sit down with my pythons or monitors and explain to them the virtues of a vegan lifestyle if you'd like. Until then I will feed them frozen thawed mice and if need be, live mice.

 

[jblayza]

Would you not consider bears worthy animals? There are certainly bear traps made. Does that justify me killing a bear to feed my herd of huskies. Wolves certainly attack bears in the wild. Can I justify it by saying its natural so its okay?

If bears are part of the food chain, then so be it, but humans are not and the poster i was referring to was comparing rats to humans. If your home was infested with rats would you just let them run around like a pet dog or cat might? All I'm saying is if certain animals feed on other animals to survive and we choose to keep them in captivity, well we gotta feed em right?