Observed Red Foot aggression.

ZEROPILOT

REDFOOT WRANGLER
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My three R/F don't generally hang out together much, but, I've been doing some major out door pen make overs and placed them together in a smaller out door pen yesterday because the crazy Florida weather decided to be 82 degrees!
It's been in the 50s.
I observed my larger male, who is about 5 years old backing up and pushing my smaller female/male who is about 3 into the side of the pen and almost had her/him flipped over.
These two have been together for days...even weeks before with no problems that I have ever seen.
Could this mean that maybe these are both male and the larger one is becoming a more aggressive adult?
The large pen is ready and I'll keep them apart. (The baby, the 3rd tortoise, already lives alone.)
 

ZEROPILOT

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In the past, I've always said that I'd never seen any aggression in R/F tortoises kept together. I had to change that.
Funny thing is that when he saw me, he stopped pushing and took a few steps forward. Like he sees ME as his ALPHA. Funny.
 

allegraf

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Mine are all together in their big outdoor pen. Once they have to go inside into the kiddie pools, the girls start shoving each other like thugs! I don't think it in indicative of the sex of your little one, just that tempers flare when they are put in a smaller enclosure.
 

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Mine are all together in their big outdoor pen. Once they have to go inside into the kiddie pools, the girls start shoving each other like thugs! I don't think it in indicative of the sex of your little one, just that tempers flare when they are put in a smaller enclosure.
Thanks, allegraf. that may very well be the case. They are used to a lot of space and were in a smallish pen.
 

ascott

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In the past, I've always said that I'd never seen any aggression in R/F tortoises kept together. I had to change that.
Funny thing is that when he saw me, he stopped pushing and took a few steps forward. Like he sees ME as his ALPHA. Funny.


This species absolutely can and do become aggressive with one another....two of the oder RFs here had been housed as a pair and one was absolutely damaged (one had its front feed bitten clean off..now grown back..they are not housed together here any longer....
 

Turtlepete

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The extent of aggression I've seen with mine is the "alpha" male will push the other male off of females, sometimes lightly nip at the forelegs. Never any sort of aggression that's anywhere near causing injury or even stress to either animal. All the females on the other hand are completely peaceful with each other.
 

Michael in MO

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I wish I'd read about aggression here, someone on a different site told me "no aggression" well that's not the case with my two. I need to take an entire day for a play date for both of them as one will badger the other for as long as I let it go.. wonder if I can ever get them together.
 

dmmj

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RF's tend to be less agressive, and do better, but there are no guarantees. I imagine it is prob. from being put into smaller enclosure, sparked the agression, buit I would watch and see if it does indeed continue in the larger enclosure. ( it may do so).
 

dmmj

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Right now they've been in a much larger pen. The big male still seems to be interested in knowing at all times were the female is.
Sounds just like me. he must be a brother from another mother.
 

puffy137

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My greeks all from the same family, the most 'aggression ' I've witnessed is 2 adults Caesar & Reeva.( still not positive about Reeva's sex.)Caesar chases Reeva constantly or he did before they hibernated. One day after I bathed them & oiled them with coconut oil ( perfumed sorry ) , he completely ignored her, she was obviously annoyed & ran after him , bumping him & trying to bite his legs. After a while he seemed to get the message & started to bump her back ! I do hope I will see Reeva have eggs , her undercarriage is concave like a male , but as a rule she/he is passive just like the other females. Caesar never ever bumps anyone else , so its a mystery to me. What do you all think ?
 

tglazie

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How old are your Greeks? What kind are they? Are they wild caught or captive bred? If they're wild, how long have you had them? I ask these questions, because I've never known a healthy, established Greek that wasn't a pugnacious little monster. Every captive bred animal I've raised that turned out male showed his maleness by attacking his cage mates. During the nineties, I was somewhat obsessed with finding a female mate for my Graecus, a longterm western Turkish male (a jet black, stocky gladiator of a tortoise; I've never seen any tortoise fight like he does, incessant ramming, vicious biting, non-stop action with that guy; anytime he isn't fighting, he's patrolling his territory, looking for a fight). Hatchlings are always difficult to differentiate (sex and species), so in my zeal to raise a mate, I raised all manner of Greeks. I never raised any of the North African types, nor any of the European forms, for that matter. Most of mine were of the ibera complex, from Turkey and Lebanon. But they were all mean once they reached that four inch mark, some of them before that size. I was, of course, consistently unlucky with the females, as none of them ever grew up to be a match for Graecus. I've long since given up on pursuing a Greek tortoise colony, but yes, I would say, of the Greeks I've owned, their's is a species that rivals Russians for meanness.

As for redfoots, my uncle's colony seems to get along just fine, but he gives all of them the run of his suburban backyard. He is quick to denounce any notion that they are a bunch of peace loving beasts. Though they aren't as aggressive as his leopards, they will engage in periodic pushing and shoving, and he notices that this gets worse during the winter months, when the colony spends increasing amounts of time within the smaller confines of the greenhouse. I think, bottom line, that any tortoise can be a jerk, and though one can arrive at certain generalities concerning aggression levels within individual species, one will always find those outstanding individuals that defy the norm.

T.G.
 

puffy137

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I feel quite sad reading your report on Greek males. I bought my first 2 babies in 1992 they were brought into this country by Veggie trucks that bring in produce from either Jordan or Syria , I suspect they might have been taken from the wild. I bought them at an open market for i think $2 each. A year or 2 later I bought 2 more babies from the same place. So I've had them for over 20 years. They all lived in a raised flower bed, heat was there obviously but not much direct sunlight. They have multiplied & now I have various ages. 2 years ago they were moved to a new run beside the house, which apart from giving them more space, affords them direct sunlight for a few hours each day. Caesar is the dominant male ,he patrols a lot when he is fully awake , which isn't just yet this year.However his only love interest is Reeva ( sex as yet undetermined) . All the others seem completely oblivious to each other , although the younger males do bump the females sometimes. but not with the regularity I see with Caesar & Reeva. I am amazed to read of the aggression shown by some greeks , the only explanation I can come up with is that the victims are strangers to the attackers, in short those torts are xenophobic racists.:D:D:D
 

tglazie

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That's very interesting. You say "this country." I take it you don't live in the United States. I don't know. Perhaps Jordanian or Syrian Greek tortoises don't display the same sort of aggression as Turkish and Lebanese Greeks. All I know is that none that I have ever raised have ever behaved in a civilized manner. Perhaps it's the south Texas heat and soil. I have no idea. Count your blessings, though, because I have never been able to build a group of Greeks. In fact, I would argue that the impression left by the viciousness of the Greeks I've raised has pushed me to raise all of my tortoises individually, even my marginated tortoises, which are, supposedly, less aggressive. But even with the margies, my big male Gino is a monster who bullied and abused the females in his pen to the point that they would rarely venture out. As a result, he lives in his own pen, separate from the girls. I've since separated the girls as well, given that come laying time, they tend to be rather feisty with one another, and for me, personally, ensuring the animals remain as injury free as possible is a big priority for me.

Ultimately, I tend to be a bit of an extremist when it comes to separation, I must admit. However, extreme as it may be, I feel it is the only 100% full proof means by which to ensure aggression doesn't factor into the health and stress levels of the tortoises. The way I see it, though, if you have a group that works (which many people do), then that's great. I just won't be following the same path, because every one of my boys are troublemakers. Graecus is one of the fiercest fighters I've ever seen. Gino and Little Gino are both restless bullies who fight viciously anytime I put them together (which I do to discourage boredom and complacency; I like them to think that their territory isn't completely safe, that Little Gino and Gino are always at risk of having to compete; I feel this makes their breeding response stronger with the girls, though honestly, I can't be sure. This is just something that I "feel" is correct. But I can tell you that since I've adopted a policy of strict separation, the tortoises are all doing much better. Every animal has become more personable, stronger, and bolder. I don't see the shyness I once thought characteristic of the females. They are, as it turns out, every bit as outgoing as their male counterparts. They were simply afraid when I kept them with Gino. And to me, that isn't right. But like I said, I've seen plenty of folks do it your way with no problems. My uncle keeps a herd of redfoots together, and he says he rarely has problems. And they produce a few dozen hatchlings every year, so he must be doing something right.

T.G.
 

puffy137

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I wonder if you have moved them around since they were born , or have you left them all together like I have with mine? The only time I have ever split them is for an hour at morning feeding time when I have to fence off the babies so they get enough to eat , then they go right back into the herd.
BTW I seldom see a tortoise retract into its shell , they aren't nervous at all , well no need to be as they have nothing to fear ( but fear itself ) lol
 

ZEROPILOT

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Update: My "big" male ends up being a female. There are three females now living together. Two are about a foot long and the "big" one is about 7.5" (It was my largest at the time of my posting.)
The same tortoise now sits at the entrance to her favorite burrow and chases and slams into the MUCH larger females the venture over. She always wins, too.
Back when I thought it was a male, I had hoped that the head bobbing and chasing meant that it was related to mating. Turns out that she's just a little b--ch! Crazy.
 

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