not hibernating, but starving, help convincing my sister

[imgliniel]

Ok, I have not been on for awhile but I previously posted about a russian tortoise moving to my sister and brother in laws apartement. This post will be part rant, part begging for advice. Appologies in advance and epic thanks to anyone who can help.

So..... I don't think the tortoise has eaten anything since September, maybe a few bites every couple days or so. He just hides under his cactus half burried in the substrate. No one seems to be interested in getting his environment right at all. He is in a large rubbermaid, good substrate, but that is where the good ends.

They had a regular house light providing some heat, but when he would not move they decided to just leave it off. It is winter and the apartment ambient temp is in the 60's most of the time. They stopped filling his water becasue "he never uses it". I have pleaded and pleaded with them to get a uv light, nope. Get a heat lamp, get him a warm side of the enclosure in the 90's and get him into a warm soak everyday to wake him up. But it is winter and they think oh he is supposed to hibernate in winter anyway. Everything I have read says that 60'ish dgrees is NOT hibernation temperature, it is just to cold to really be active and eat and digest temperature, and that he is not hibernating, he is basically starving. He is stuck in perpetual nightime.

So, am I totally wrong? Is he hibernating and he'll be fine? Or are we gonna be greeted by a dead tortoise in the spring?

And if he is not hibernating properly and needs to get warmed up etc. How do I convince them! I am stuck between this horrible place of tossing up my hands, saying "it is there pet not mine" and hoping it all works out, and taking him on myself. I tend to be the family dumping ground for animals and I am kinda sick of cleaning up everyone elses messes (this is not the first). But then I feel guilty for letting the animal suffer. Overall the whole thing sucks and I am not sure what to do.


thank you for letting rant.

 

[Heliopteryx]

Have you told them about the consequences of not providing UV light, water, etc? Do they simply not care if the tortoise lives or dies? If so, maybe you could try to adopt it from them. I am not convinced they really want the tortoise around, though they might think that they do.

I don't know about Russian tortoises, but 60 is a bit too warm for Hermann's tortoises to hibernate. It is too cold for the tortoise though.

 

[sibi]

If your sister won't give you the RT, threaten to report them for animal cruelty. Can you go there and take that tort? If you can't take it, go and get the stuff he needs and take charge! I know he isn't your pet, but it's a LIFE. Better yet, if they are willing to take some money for it, perhaps our rescue program can get him and give it to someone who will love and take care of it. Do it fast, this tort may die.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

He is not hibernating but IS slowly starving to death. And it's a painful awful way to go. Can't you just pack him up and take him to your house before he dies or gets too far gone to save?

 

[imgliniel]

Ok, well thank you at least for confirming that I am not going insane and that I am correct in my assessment.

To the animal control suggestion, I have called animal control on another family member who is a hoarder (40 something cats and almost 20 dogs in a 2 bedroom little house, I mean it when I say hoarder) and they did not do ****, I doubt they know a damn thing about reptiles or would do anything I have no faith in them. Also I would prefer to not have them hate me, I love my sisers and normally they are great and wonderful people. Besides, They are not being malicious, they honestly think he is supposed to be hybernating. My sister is actually woried that waking him up this time of year would do him harm. This is compounded by the fact that at my parents house he lived in an outdoor pen year round with no heat or anything and they basically ignored him all the time beside tossing in some food when they noticed he was awake, and he lived fine for years , hybernating every year and the female he waswith even laid eggs. (However, it gets into the 40's fairly regularly at night and occassionally the 30s or 50's so much bette hybernating temps, and the summers are up in the high nineties during the day). Aslo anyone n Orange county with a tortoise basically lets it wander the backyard with no further care or interaction. (not ideal, just average, but the average dog is banished outside or to a chain much of its life, normal does not equal ideal or good).

It is a case of not researching the pet. If anyone has a great article on hibernating that talks about ideal temps, what is hybernating and what is not etc, that I can give them, that would be great. I have asked them to let me take him. (it is a long stiry but their cats have been living at my house for almost a year, and basically they were just waiting to make him an outdoor space, so I said just let me take him and you can get your cats. It would now appear that they have no intention of actually taking that cats back at all.)

 

[shellysmom]

Hmmmm... sounds like a sticky situation. In my experience, animal control is extremely hesitant to deal with anything other than cats and dogs, even though they usually have the authority to do so. And, yes, since it's family, you don't want to rock the boat if you don't have to. Maybe you can tell them you spoke to a couple of tortoise experts and they recommend either increasing the temps so the animal can eat normally and not hibernate, or lower the temps somehow so it can properly hibernate. And, since it's been stuck in limbo for awhile, I personally would discourage it from hibernating at this point.

Here's a link that might be helpful:
http://www.anapsid.org/hibernation.html

Excerpt:
"Hibernating species can tolerate a temperature between 39°F and 50°F (3.8°C and 10°C) when artificially hibernated. A temperature above 50°F may precipitate torpor, not a true hibernation, and your turtle or tortoise may use up precious fat reserves with its raised metabolism. If that happens and too much fat has been expended, you'll have to take the turtle or tortoise out of its hibernation container and allow it to gradually come up to a warmer temperature. The animal must then be fed and maintained at non-hibernating temperatures. One way to tell your tortoise isn't truly hibernating is if it is active in its hibernation box or if you find it has urinated..."

 

[kathyth]

Do you happen to have a key?


I would ask her if I could have it, at least for the winter. If she said no, I would keep thinking.
It sounds like your sister does not care, in which case she may give the tortoise up.
I also agree that I would print information for her to read.

 

[Yvonne G]

Here's a nice thread started by GBTortoises:

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-59575.html

 

[Laura]

when you pick him up does he feel solid like a rock? or light? If he feels heavy.. he needs to be cooler and let sleep,, or he needs to be warmed up a lot and get back to eating.. It sounds like they need to find him a new home.. they dont seem to enjoy him, so why have him?

 

[mattgrizzlybear]

She sounds like she is suffering. I say take her from hem if she doesnt let you have her.

 

[sibi]

That's what I mean...you need to do something. Reasoning with them hasn't helped and in the meantime, the RT may be dying. I would tell your sister to either take back her cat now, or give me the tortoise. Try it, you won't know what they'll do until you do it. Then, let us know the results.

 

[Tom]

You are not insane. You are correct. Can you show your sister this thread?

Personally I would not stand by and watch this happen. I would take whatever measures are necessary, including theft, to help this tortoise. If she wants to ignore your advice and leave her TV out in the rain, for example, that's her problem. If she wants to slowly kill this tortoise, that is the tortoise's problem. We took him from the wild, we have a responsibility to make sure he gets the best care we can give. If this means upsetting someone or breaking the law, so be it. The animal's well being is more important to me than anyone's feelings, and legal or illegal often has very little to do with right or wrong.

Get your *** over there and do the right thing!

 

[imgliniel]

Woot!!!

We have some success. So sometime maybe this weekend (we are still hashing out schedules) I'll be going out there so we can set things up properly and get him up and moving. I got her to explain more and when they brought him to the apt he was active but would not eat (anyone know why?) She was worried about him starving and when he went dormant she thought that he had been brought out of hibernation by the move and that he should be hibernating (hence why he would not eat) otherwise he would use up his stores and starve. I explained that if he was truely hibernating this may be true, but that since he isn't (the link that explained Torpor, and temps was super helpful) he is still using those stores up way to fast. Explaining the fridge hibernation helped because she realized that the apartement is not as cold as the fridge.

Please understand the following. The current setup is going to have to do for now until they can afford something bigger. Please realize they are not rich, actually they are relatively broke. So I need help figuring out the most cost effective way to get everything as it should. Please also realize I am relatively broke ATM also (you think tortoises are expensive try vet bills for horses).

Currently he is in a 50 gallon rubbermaid, he has play sand a coir for substrate. They have some kind of lamp houseing but I don't know what kind it is, so what is acceptable/not acceptable would be helpful. The apartement is normally around 68 give or take a few degrees. This should be fine for nightime right? And I need heat/UVA/UVB for the day, with a basking spot 95-100. What is the most cost effective lighting solution to get me there? Will a single MVB bulb in the appropriate housing (I don't know what the appropriate housing is though, so please explain) be sufficient? Or will it not put out enough light or heat to stimulate him? I now they have limited range but the tank is not that big. Or would another combination like a seperate light and heat source be better? Or less expensive but just as good? Etc. I realize some of this will be peoples oppinions but I want to hear them. Links to specific products online that I can compare to when I go to the store are super helpful.

Next, how do I go about warmong him up waking him up? From what I have read Iam thinking a lukewarm babyfood soak for a good 20 minutes then place him under his basking bulb and put fresh food in the tank.

Also, after he eats and gets going should we maintain a morning soak and place under the basking bulb routine? Or should he be fine on his own? Just move him to his basking spot when they turn on the lights in the morning?

Other suggestions?

 

[Yvonne G]

The Forum does not condone doing anything illegal and one of our rules is for us to refrain from talking about doing anything illegal.

 

[shellysmom]

Woot!!!

We have some success. So sometime maybe this weekend (we are still hashing out schedules) I'll be going out there so we can set things up properly and get him up and moving. I got her to explain more and when they brought him to the apt he was active but would not eat (anyone know why?) She was worried about him starving and when he went dormant she thought that he had been brought out of hibernation by the move and that he should be hibernating (hence why he would not eat) otherwise he would use up his stores and starve. I explained that if he was truely hibernating this may be true, but that since he isn't (the link that explained Torpor, and temps was super helpful) he is still using those stores up way to fast. Explaining the fridge hibernation helped because she realized that the apartement is not as cold as the fridge.

Please understand the following. The current setup is going to have to do for now until they can afford something bigger. Please realize they are not rich, actually they are relatively broke. So I need help figuring out the most cost effective way to get everything as it should. Please also realize I am relatively broke ATM also (you think tortoises are expensive try vet bills for horses).

Currently he is in a 50 gallon rubbermaid, he has play sand a coir for substrate. They have some kind of lamp houseing but I don't know what kind it is, so what is acceptable/not acceptable would be helpful. The apartement is normally around 68 give or take a few degrees. This should be fine for nightime right? And I need heat/UVA/UVB for the day, with a basking spot 95-100. What is the most cost effective lighting solution to get me there? Will a single MVB bulb in the appropriate housing (I don't know what the appropriate housing is though, so please explain) be sufficient? Or will it not put out enough light or heat to stimulate him? I now they have limited range but the tank is not that big. Or would another combination like a seperate light and heat source be better? Or less expensive but just as good? Etc. I realize some of this will be peoples oppinions but I want to hear them. Links to specific products online that I can compare to when I go to the store are super helpful.

Next, how do I go about warmong him up waking him up? From what I have read Iam thinking a lukewarm babyfood soak for a good 20 minutes then place him under his basking bulb and put fresh food in the tank.

Also, after he eats and gets going should we maintain a morning soak and place under the basking bulb routine? Or should he be fine on his own? Just move him to his basking spot when they turn on the lights in the morning?

Other suggestions?

If the lighting/temp change/baby food soak routine does not perk him up, he might actually be sick with an infection, or have a bowel impaction, or have something else seriously wrong with him. If that's the case, he will probably need to go to the vet. If it comes to that, PM me for more info about vet funds. Good luck. I'm glad you were able to talk things out in a positive way with your sister.

 

[imgliniel]

The Forum does not condone doing anything illegal and one of our rules is for us to refrain from talking about doing anything illegal.

Huh? where did I mention doing anything illegal? Sorry but you lost me. I was concerned for my sisters totoise, I talked to her, she agreed to my help, now I want suggestions on the best lighting setup and or saoking/eating routine.

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If the lighting/temp change/baby food soak routine does not perk him up, he might actually be sick with an infection, or have a bowel impaction, or have something else seriously wrong with him. If that's the case, he will probably need to go to the vet. If it comes to that, PM me for more info about vet funds. Good luck. I'm glad you were able to talk things out in a positive way with your sister.

He did go to the vet when they got him and he checked out minus a small infection in his feet due to trying to dig ion dirt that wore them down to nubs, they did a course of antibiotics.

 

[shellysmom]

The Forum does not condone doing anything illegal and one of our rules is for us to refrain from talking about doing anything illegal.

Huh? where did I mention doing anything illegal? Sorry but you lost me. I was concerned for my sisters totoise, I talked to her, she agreed to my help, now I want suggestions on the best lighting setup and or saoking/eating routine.

---

I think Yvonne was referring to the people who suggested you should just "take" the tortoise if its condition did not improve. You didn't do anything wrong.

---

 

[lynnedit]

Imgliniel, you have done a fine job.

Yes, each morning, soak the tort in warm water (warm to touch, and don't let it cool off). Adding pureed baby food like carrots, sweet potatos, or squash is great. You can use 1/2 jar in a small container, then if the water cools, add the second 1/2 to a new bath. About 15 to 20 minutes is fine.
After you soak the tort, put him/her under the basking light. For now it can even be a house bulb 100w or so, whatever gets the basking area to 95-100F. Add a second light to the enclosure, 75W or so, if needed to brighten up the enclosure.
Let him bask for an hour, then offer food: Spring mix with other greens. Do this every day for a week then continue to get him up to the basking light, but you can then soak every other day.
Make sure the lights stay on for 12-14 hours.

See how the tort does for a week or so. If he remains lethargic, or doesn't poo, pee or eat, then somehow a vet visit may be necessary.