New to Tortoises! Super excited!

[JohnL]

Hello everyone! Lets start off with a quick introduction of myself. I'm John, live in Las Vegas, NV, been keeping reptiles for about five years now. I am currently mainly working with Dart Frogs but also keep Bearded Dragons, Leopard Geckos, Crested Geckos, Newts, Tarantula, and lots of roaches. I've always wanted to keep tortoises but never have enough space for one. Now that we moved to a property with about an acre of land I can finally get some! So I plan on getting two or three sulcatas in a few months due to their large size, price, and availability.
I'm gathering materials now and need your suggestions. I plan on keeping them indoors for the most part while they're still young but giving them as much outdoor time as possible. While indoors, they will be kept in a 3'x2'x8" concrete mixing tub or I may build a 4x3 tortoise table. The substrate will be a 50/50 mix of cypress mulch and coco coir with a big pile of damp sphagnum moss in one of the corners to prevent pyramiding. Their lighting will be a 100w Power Sun MVB. Our house stays in the high 70's to low 80's so I will not be applying any additional heat other then the MVB. Their diet will be a mix of an organic spring mix and weeds and grasses I can pluck from my yard thats is not treated with anything. I may either have a shallow water dish for them or soak them several times a week or both. They will also get as much outdoor time as possible to graze on their own and get supplemented with Mazuri occasionally. I'll put together an outdoor pen for when they're still small but build a bigger one once they're big enough to stay out.
Lets get started with the endless amount of questions I have.
Do you think the concrete mixing tub is big enough for them or should I go straight to the 4x3 tortoise table? (They'll be about 4" when I get them)
What are some good decorations to add to their enclosure that they will actually use and enjoy?
Is there any way to improve their diet?
Are any type of supplements that should be added? If so, what type, how much, and how often?
What distance should I keep their light at and what schedule should it be on?
When can I start keeping them out year round? In Vegas we get highs of 120 and lows in the 20's but not often. I'll have a heated hide for them during the winter and plenty of shade during the summer.
Should I build a smaller outdoor pen for use when they're small or should I just build one that will fix them when they get large?
How big should I make their outdoor enclosure? I know the bigger the better but whats a good size thats not like an acre
I know I have a LOT more questions but I can't thinks of them now
Well, thank you all in advance! I'm super excited for this new adventure and I can't wait for it to start rolling!

 

[tortadise]

Welcome

 

[wellington]

Hello and Welcome. I can help with some questions. First, please read Toms threads below in my post. Being in the heat of vega, I would go,with a closed chamber to prevent pyramiding. I don't think just soaks and a humid hide will do it there, my opinion. Second, you should with the high humidity, not let temps drop below 80, so you might want a CHE for those cold nights. A water dish should be available 24/7 and I would soak them at least every other day until they are around the age of two. You can keep them outside and a humid closed chamber enclosure for night time, when weather permits. I wouldn't make the outside enclosure adult size yet, it will be harder to find them, care for them and to protect them from the critters that wants to eat them.

 

[diamondbp]

Welcome! You'll will find a ton of friends and information here to help you and your tortoises

 

[jacktaylor900]

Welcome! I would build a closed chamber to have the humidity really high. Read toms threads to learn how

 

[JohnL]

Hello and Welcome. I can help with some questions. First, please read Toms threads below in my post. Being in the heat of vega, I would go,with a closed chamber to prevent pyramiding. I don't think just soaks and a humid hide will do it there, my opinion. Second, you should with the high humidity, not let temps drop below 80, so you might want a CHE for those cold nights. A water dish should be available 24/7 and I would soak them at least every other day until they are around the age of two. You can keep them outside and a humid closed chamber enclosure for night time, when weather permits. I wouldn't make the outside enclosure adult size yet, it will be harder to find them, care for them and to protect them from the critters that wants to eat them.

Hey, thanks for the help! I looked at the closed chamber and there are things I like and dislike about it. The idea that it keeps humidity up is awesome, keeping Dart Frogs, I know humidity is almost impossible to keep up here. However, I don't really like that it doesn't have the super easy access like the tortoise tables do.
This got me thinking. I have an extra misting system (had it before I upgraded for my frogs) that I could hook up to a tortoise table and have it spray for a few seconds every hour. I believe that that would be able to keep humidity up without to much trouble and still give me the option of the easy access for cleaning and such. The question is, will the tortoise be stresses with multiple mistings a day?
As you can probably see, I am trying to avoid the front opening and viewing of the closed chamber because I HATED it when I had one for my Bearded Dragons!
Thanks for the help again!!!

 

[pfara]

Maybe a simple solution, if you like the table design, is to drape something over it. That's what I ended up doing because I had a table made before I found this forum (and read about closed chambers). I have a frame over the table that I hang my lights off of and a large, plastic dropcloth over the entire thing. Dropcloth isn't the best at insulating, but it definitely keeps in the humidity and still provides accessibility since it isn't permanently attached to the table. Hope this helps.

 

[JohnL]

Maybe a simple solution, if you like the table design, is to drape something over it. That's what I ended up doing because I had a table made before I found this forum (and read about closed chambers). I have a frame over the table that I hang my lights off of and a large, plastic dropcloth over the entire thing. Dropcloth isn't the best at insulating, but it definitely keeps in the humidity and still provides accessibility since it isn't permanently attached to the table. Hope this helps.

Ya, I was thinking of something similar to that. Like build a "cage" or frame around it and put some tarp over around it and hang the lights off the frame. But one thing I worry is the temperature getting to high because our house can get up to 85 degrees and with the added heat lamps and such, the temperature in the enclosure could get up to 100. Anyone got any suggestion on that?

 

[wellington]

Yes, put a CHE on a thermostat. That will keep it at 80 and not below. Won't come on if it's already above 80. Also, use a fluorescent tube light for UVB, it gives off very little heat.

 

[pfara]

Yes, put a CHE on a thermostat. That will keep it at 80 and not below. Won't come on if it's already above 80. Also, use a fluorescent tube light for UVB, it gives off very little heat.

If your ambient room temp is that high on a consistent basis, fluorescent tubes (like Barb said) would be good for UV. It seems to raise my enclosure temp by about 2 degrees. Then you'd only need a basking spot which could be a regular incandescent bulb and a CHE on a thermostat (like Barb mentioned) for night heat. It all depends on how much space you'd be heating up, too.

 

[Tom]

Hello and welcome. Your enthusiasm for the subject matter is obvious. That's pretty cool, I think. Most of your questions are answered in the care sheet, but I want to elaborate on all your points and questions specifically.

1. You said you want to get 2 or 3. Get 1 or 3. Don't get two. Pairs are a bad idea. Even when they are little.
2. Don't keep hatchlings outside "as much as possible." They only need and hour a day or so. As they gain size more time outside everyday is good, but its too much for babies and they tend to not do well with too much outside time. It seems to be worse in a dry climate too. Once they are over 6", I think outside all day is fine. Once they are over 10" I think outside 24/7, with a proper heated night box, is fine.
3. I see you are already reconsidering this one, but open tables or shallow tubs just do not work for sulcata babies, unless the whole room is 80 degrees with 80% humidity all the time. Putting some moss in a corner, or using a misting system is just not going to do it. I've tried it this way and it is a constant struggle and compromise. The closed chamber makes it easy. Opening a sliding or hinged door, is not all that hard and it helps to provide your babies with ideal conditions for growth and good health. Plus it saves you a ton on electricity since you are using much smaller bulbs.
4. Why mix substrates? You can if you want, but either of your two choices are fine by themselves.
5. The MVB sounds good, but it might be too big for a closed chamber. Only your thermometer can answer that. I like the ambient temp to climb into the low 90s daily and drop back down to 80 at night. Simulates what they would experience in the wild.
6. Use a terra cotta plant saucer sunk into the substrate for a water dish, AND soak daily in a tall sided opaque tub for the first few months.
7. Outside enclosure ideas sound great. There are threads with ideas for that in my signature.
8. Your diet plan sounds pretty good too. Add endive and escarole to your list of good grocery store greens.

Now for your actual questions:
9. The tub is big enough for hatchlings, but unsuitable due to the open-ness and low sides. Already covered this one above in number 3.
10. What furniture to add: Humid hide box. Plant saucers for food and water. Potted plants. More substrate sloped in interesting ways.
11. Diet improvements: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-76744.html
12. Supplements: Alternate calcium and MinerAll. Give one of these twice a week. Just a pinch is all you need. Pick a reptile vitamin you like and use it once a week. No supplements the other four days a week.
13. Lights should be on a timer for 12-13 hours a day. Distance will be determined by your thermometer and might change seasonally. Don't let them get cool at night. Your ambient temp could drop into the low 70s due to evaporation in a 78 degree room with an open top and no night heat. This would not be good.
14. I keep them out year round once they hit about 10". I use this: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-66867.html or even better, this: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-28662.html
15. I like a 4x8' pen for babies and 30x30' for juveniles from 6-12" or so. After that, give them the acre.


This is a lot of info to digest. Read the links in my signature and then come back with more questions.

 

[JohnL]

Thanks for the help Tom, greatly appreciated! I am definitely not gonna use an open top now, just sounds like its not gonna work out at all. I'll be sure to read those threads, but it's time for a nap Thanks again Tom and all that helped!

 

[Jacqui]

Enjoy your nap and welcome!

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi John, and welcome to the Forum!

 

[JohnL]

Hello and welcome. Your enthusiasm for the subject matter is obvious. That's pretty cool, I think. Most of your questions are answered in the care sheet, but I want to elaborate on all your points and questions specifically.

1. You said you want to get 2 or 3. Get 1 or 3. Don't get two. Pairs are a bad idea. Even when they are little.
2. Don't keep hatchlings outside "as much as possible." They only need and hour a day or so. As they gain size more time outside everyday is good, but its too much for babies and they tend to not do well with too much outside time. It seems to be worse in a dry climate too. Once they are over 6", I think outside all day is fine. Once they are over 10" I think outside 24/7, with a proper heated night box, is fine.
3. I see you are already reconsidering this one, but open tables or shallow tubs just do not work for sulcata babies, unless the whole room is 80 degrees with 80% humidity all the time. Putting some moss in a corner, or using a misting system is just not going to do it. I've tried it this way and it is a constant struggle and compromise. The closed chamber makes it easy. Opening a sliding or hinged door, is not all that hard and it helps to provide your babies with ideal conditions for growth and good health. Plus it saves you a ton on electricity since you are using much smaller bulbs.
4. Why mix substrates? You can if you want, but either of your two choices are fine by themselves.
5. The MVB sounds good, but it might be too big for a closed chamber. Only your thermometer can answer that. I like the ambient temp to climb into the low 90s daily and drop back down to 80 at night. Simulates what they would experience in the wild.
6. Use a terra cotta plant saucer sunk into the substrate for a water dish, AND soak daily in a tall sided opaque tub for the first few months.
7. Outside enclosure ideas sound great. There are threads with ideas for that in my signature.
8. Your diet plan sounds pretty good too. Add endive and escarole to your list of good grocery store greens.

Now for your actual questions:
9. The tub is big enough for hatchlings, but unsuitable due to the open-ness and low sides. Already covered this one above in number 3.
10. What furniture to add: Humid hide box. Plant saucers for food and water. Potted plants. More substrate sloped in interesting ways.
11. Diet improvements: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-76744.html
12. Supplements: Alternate calcium and MinerAll. Give one of these twice a week. Just a pinch is all you need. Pick a reptile vitamin you like and use it once a week. No supplements the other four days a week.
13. Lights should be on a timer for 12-13 hours a day. Distance will be determined by your thermometer and might change seasonally. Don't let them get cool at night. Your ambient temp could drop into the low 70s due to evaporation in a 78 degree room with an open top and no night heat. This would not be good.
14. I keep them out year round once they hit about 10". I use this: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-66867.html or even better, this: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-28662.html
15. I like a 4x8' pen for babies and 30x30' for juveniles from 6-12" or so. After that, give them the acre.


This is a lot of info to digest. Read the links in my signature and then come back with more questions.

Wow! That was a LOT to read Tom! There were a lot of new things that I learned from all that reading, one of which is to never ever sit in front of the computer for more than two hours I definitely have a better idea of my plans now though.

 

[JohnL]

Hey guys, just thought of some more questions!
1) So from my reading, I don't need a UVB bulb if I can get my tortoise out in the sun for 20 minutes a day? I can still get a UVB bulb but if I can save a couple bucks that would be great.
2) If I plan on planting the heck out of their enclosure and they eat so much of the stuff that they don't need me to feed them how do I get them their supplements?
3) Can I still take them out for sun in the winter? Whats the lowest temperature? I'm just taking them out to get some sun time and won't keep them out for too long in the colder weather.
Thanks guys for all the help!

 

[pam]

Welcome