New enclosure advice

[saginawhxc]

Okay I've had my baby (Mr T) for just over one month now. I started out the first week or so doing things fairly wrong thanks to bad advice and failure on my part. I fixed most of the dire problems, but the one I haven't fixed yet is the size of his enclosure. It is way to small. So I have purchased my material for a new indoor enclosure. Now I just need some advice. He is still tiny. 2 and 1/8 long and under two ounces. I'm making his enclosure 6x3x2.5 out of 3/4 melamine and it will have sliding acrylic doors. Coco coir for substrate.

In his current enclosure I am using a 100w mercury vapor bulb on a timer and a CHE on a thermostat I set at 90. His new enclosure is much bigger but will also be a little more closed than his current. For this size enclosure how much heating/lighting am I likely to have to add? Another basking bulb? A second CHE? Or will these actually be enough.

My approximate plan is to mount four ceramic light bases even spaced across the top. I have the ability and equipment to control any of those four from either a digital controller and or timer. My real question here is what will likely be the best utilization of those light bases?

Since I'm already asking questions, how deep should his substrate be? Is controlling humidity in a size this big going to be a nightmare? Should this thing be vented for air circulation or will he get enough oxygen from the times I open the door for feeding/misting/soaking? There will be a small crack between the doors so it won't exactly be airtight. Can I seal the corners with silicone or is silicone a no no inside a tortoise enclosure?

Thank you in advance for your help.

 

[saginawhxc]

Oh one last question. Anybody had any experience with using a fogger for help in controlling humidity? I was thinking about trying a zoo med fogger hooked up to a humidity controller.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

The "Mostly closed" that you are planning will help greatly on keeping in your heat as well as the humidity.
It would be hard to guess how much more or what to do until you turn the thoughts into a working enclosure. You might not need much else.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

Oh one last question. Anybody had any experience with using a fogger for help in controlling humidity? I was thinking about trying a zoo med fogger hooked up to a humidity controller.

Don't buy a fogger just yet. Closing off some of the top will help. It might not be required. The vast majority of us don't use one. (Not that there's anything wrong with them.)

 

[Yvonne G]

about the size of the light, or how many you'll need - you just have to start with one, I'd say 100watt, and test the temperature all over the floor of the habitat and go from there. Each set up is different.

 

[saginawhxc]

I kind of figured it would end up boiling down to trial and error. I'm just a little excited and mentally obsessed with the enclosure build right now.

 

[Big Charlie]

I would be a little worried about using melamine. It emits formaldehyde. I would think the off-gassing would occur more in a warm, closed environment.

 

[saginawhxc]

The choice to use melamine seemed like a no brainer to me. It is a semi standard in cabinet making. It is tough, durable, easily cleaned, and best of all it is moisture resistant. I had actually heard about the formaldehyde emissions before but had forgot. I'm looking at four sheets of this stuff in my garage that I picked up yesterday before your comment. I haven't started yet and they could still be returned. I had planned on starting first thing this morning but now I'm doubting myself.

I absolutely do not mean to be dismissive of your concerns but are there really that many emissions to really make it dangerous. My understanding is that almost every thing emits formaldehyde, but many composites like melamine simply emit more than average. If melamine was such a threat would it be such a go to cabinetry material? That being said I will openly concede that once upon a time somebody was saying the same thing about asbestos.

Five seconds of googling finds that melamine is actually a very common material in reptile enclosures. Which makes me feel a little more reassured. Apparently I'm not the only one who saw it as a go to material for this kind of project.

I'm really curious if anybody else has anything to say on the subject before I dive in.

 

[Yvonne G]

Look at it this way, no one has to live in your kitchen cabinet.

Is there any way to "air" them out? Can they be placed in the sun for a week or so to dissipate the fumes?

I found this interesting article:

Generally speaking, furniture made with Melamine (the white panels) contain an abundance of formaldehyde which off-gasses into the environment.

• That is changing however, and there are some suppliers using formaldehyde-free Melamine, especially in California, but it is still rare.
• If you know the furniture came from overseas it is most likely not subject to the same standards as in the US.

Formaldehyde emissions come mainly from the exposed edges of Melamine furniture, i.e. the areas that are not white.

• Look on the top and bottom edges.
• But don't forget to check underneath the drawers, the sides and the back of the cabinet as they often are completely exposed or made from medium density fiberboard (MDF) which usually contains urea formaldehdye too.

A simple solution
There are several ways to deal with this problem.

The simplest is to let it off-gas outdoors or in your garage where it will not bother anyone. If you can't do this because the furniture is too heavy to move, then open windows, turn on fans and turn up the heat. Heat and ventilation will significantly accelerate formaldehyde off-gassing.

While these methods may help some, they are rarely sufficient to eliminate the problem. Most off-gassing of this type will probably continue for months or even years in lesser degrees.

Sealing in the formaldehyde
The most effective solution is to seal all edges with an encapsulating sealer. Some people have used Shellac, but there are too many types of Shellac some of which contain solvents which off-gas too.

The best products we have found for this purpose are made by AFM Safecoat.

• They are called Safe Seal and Hard Seal.
• Both were specifically designed to seal about 90% of the formaldehyde emissions in the adhesives as well as other volatile organic compounds used in the stains or finishes.
• (AFM makes other sealers that control off-gassing of carpeting, flooring, grout and paint.)

Safe Seal and Hard Seal can be used on porous wood paneling such as plywood, chipboard, MDF, oriented strand board (OSB), etc.

• Safe Seal dries soft and is recommended for surfaces that will not be seen or touched.
• Hard Seal dries hard and is for surfaces such as furniture or cabinetry that are visible and may be touched.
• They are relatively inexpensive and cover about 250 SF/gallon and can be applied with a brush or sprayed with a garden sprayer.

For a Melamine desk, a quart of Hard Seal will do. You may have to apply two or three coats depending upon the humidity in the air, amount of formaldehyde in the furniture, and your sensitivity. Always use thin coats and let each coat thoroughly dry before applying the next. Once the sealer has fully cured in about a week, you should notice almost no off-gassing.

As with all new products that you are unfamiliar with, we strongly recommend that you test for your own sensitivity to the sealant first in an inconspicuous area before using.

 

[saginawhxc]

I think the emissions of melamine and other composites are something that happen very slowly over the years. Not something that only happens while it is new.

Nothing may be living inside our cabinets, but most of us encounter melamine much more than any of us realize. These emissions come from so many more building materials than just melamine. Most likely if you used any sort of plywood or composite wood, or any sort of finish then these levels are already higher than average within your enclosure. We are all already encountering these formaldehyde emissions daily.

There are a few natural finishes for wood that emit lower levels of VOC's, but often they come with a poor trade off. They often seem to offer much lower moisture resistance, poorer cleanup, or lower heat resistance.

I'm involved in a hospital build right now and every single cabinet, counter, and cupboard in the entire building is made out of formaldehyde emitting composite wood.

The more I read into this subject, and the more I think about it, the more I am certain that the dangers are negligible and I am going to go ahead with the build.

I am still curious to hear anybodies input in the subject though. I am far from an expert on the issue.

 

[saginawhxc]

There actually will be no exposed edges inside the enclosure. So that makes me feel better too.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

Does this material give off gasses just in its normal form or when it is cut into?
Would using a sealant as it is joined together be an option?
How about something like an epoxy paint used to coat the entire, finished enclosure?

 

[saginawhxc]

Melamine is still sitting uncut in my garage... This has been perfect for someone who excels at procrastination.

I've read different things about when and how they emit gasses. Quality information on the subject seems sparse. It sounds like the most likely thing is that emissions occur mainly when the edges are fresh. Like when it is freshly cut into. Some emissions may occur over the lifespan of the wood, but any composite wood or glued together piece of plywood is already doing this.

Using an epoxy would negate most of the reasons I chose melamine over hardwood sheets anyways. Price would be the only thing it would have going for it, and price (within reason) is my smallest concern.

None of this matters though because now I've just decided I will err on the safe side and use the melamine for something else. Not sure what yet but I have projects galore. I will come up with something eventually.

I have two sheets of red oak out in the garage also. I wish it was white, but it is what it is and I'll just use that. I will seal it well and pick up a sheet of coroplast to use as a liner to hold the substrate and call it good.

 

[saginawhxc]

In other related news I think my girlfriend is becoming less than impressed with both how much money I'm sinking into this and it's overall size. Considering she is the one that wanted a Sulcata (I was leaning towards Redfoot) you would think the size of the enclosure shouldn't upset her. I am trying to sell it by telling her it is something else in this house she can stack stuff on and annoy me.

 

[Big Charlie]

In other related news I think my girlfriend is becoming less than impressed with both how much money I'm sinking into this and it's overall size. Considering she is the one that wanted a Sulcata (I was leaning towards Redfoot) you would think the size of the enclosure shouldn't upset her. I am trying to sell it by telling her it is something else in this house she can stack stuff on and annoy me.

I'm sorry I stirred up a hornet's nest!

I have a similar problem my husband. He isn't happy with how much money we have spent on Charlie, especially last year when we had to fill in Charlie's burrow to prevent our house from collapsing. I haven't told him about my plans to build a pond for him this summer.

 

[saginawhxc]

You didn't stir up anything. The oak is twice as expensive, but will turn out looking much nicer.

I plan on this being an enclosure that will last a long long time. Okay, it will only last Mr T a year or maybe a little more, but I am already thinking about what to put in there next. I am thinking about maybe a Tegu next. A Redfoot may possibly be in our future eventually also.

If nothing else it will end up as a very nice sized enclosure for our bearded dragon.

Maybe I'll have myself buried in it when my girlfriend kills me when I try to build something even bigger for Mr T next year.

 

[saginawhxc]

I'm sorry I stirred up a hornet's nest!

I have a similar problem my husband. He isn't happy with how much money we have spent on Charlie, especially last year when we had to fill in Charlie's burrow to prevent our house from collapsing. I haven't told him about my plans to build a pond for him this summer.

I have projects galore planned. I think I secretly wanted this tortoise just for the excuse to build stuff.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

Maybe when your Sulcata becomes Godzilla sized, your new Redfoot can move into his old home? The one you're now building.

 

[Pearly]

Oh one last question. Anybody had any experience with using a fogger for help in controlling humidity? I was thinking about trying a zoo med fogger hooked up to a humidity controller.

I LOVE my Reptifogger! No hydrostat needed for me. It took just few days to figure out how long to run it. With the closed chamber 40 gal all I need is just few minutes at breakfast time. The outlet is directly above their feeding area and they LOVE the fog rolling down!

 

[saginawhxc]

Maybe when your Sulcata becomes Godzilla sized, your new Redfoot can move into his old home? The one you're now building.

I told my nine year old that as soon as she turns 18 I am throwing her out and giving the sulcata her room.