Natural hibernation

[idcowden]

Hi All,

Our spur thigh Tortoises (Testudo graeca) have been happily living in an outdoor enclosure I built for them. It's a nice size (I think) being about 8ft x 5ft, and safe from foxes etc with a chickenwire mesh lid that I can remove in panels. They have a cold frame (2ft x 2ft) with a ceramic heater, which is run from a thermostatic control to ensure that the temperature never drops below 20c during the day or about 6c at night (on the coldest nights I put a tarp over to keep in heat). The tortoises are 3 years old. Oh - and I am in South East England so temperature wise it seldom gets extremely cold.

Anyway - I have never tried to hibernate them, but my theory was that as they can choose whether to be inside the cold frame or out then they could choose whether or not to hibernate.

Coco decided to hibernate herself at the end of November when the weather was quite cold. She dug herself down outside the cold frame and happily stayed there for 4 weeks. I did dig her up to check on her and she moved herself closer to the cold frame. When we had a big freeze, I did move her inside the cold frame where she dug herself back down. Now at the beginning of Feb when I checked at her her eyes were open and she was moving a little - seems like she is ready to finish.

Esio on the other hand continued to eat and pop in and out all the way through December until mid Jan. She didn't dig down and cover herself, but found a corner of the cold frame and dug a little trench to sit in. She remains, at this stage resolutely hibernating with her head firmly inside her shell and limbs across like closed doors.

I'm assuming that this approach is fine? They both seem happy. I gave Coco a bath today to warm her up and see if she wants to eat yet. I'm going to give Esio a little more time yet...

Am I doing the right thing? Any opinions gratefully received.

*yes I know there should be at least 3 of them. I'm working on a second enclosure or a divider for the existing one. Although they generally seem to get on with one another

 

[mark1]

Hibernation experience of Testudo hermanni and Testudo graeca in natural and very close to natural conditions in Bulgaria

 

[Tom]

Am I doing the right thing? Any opinions gratefully received.

No. No you are not, I'm sorry to say. You will be lucky if they survive what you've done. And there is nothing "natural" about leaving tortoises outside in a tiny enclosure in winter in your garden. All of this is explained here:

Tom's Brumation Thread

Every fall we get bombarded here on the forum with all sorts of questions and problems regarding hibernation and tortoises "slowing down" for winter. The purpose of this thread is to talk about all aspects of this subject, to dispel some of the myths and mysteries, and give a "how to" list of...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[wellington]

Tortoises,should not be kept in pairs.
Your enclosure is not big and not a good size. It is the minimum for one.
That is not the proper way to brumate them.
Make changes asap that you should find in what Tom posted for you

 

[Yvonne G]

Hibernation experience of Testudo hermanni and Testudo graeca in natural and very close to natural conditions in Bulgaria

To anyone not computer savvy, the above line of text is a link. You click on it and it takes you to a nice article about hibernating hermanni and greek tortoises.

 

[mark1]

i thought the paper was an accurate representation of the dangers of "natural" hibernation..... i think the size of the enclosure is not the risk ... i've hibernated young box turtles in an enclosure no bigger than 4'x4', i've hibernated wood turtles outside in 3'x2' cement mixing tubs, i've got 2 baby box turtles in an area no bigger than 2'x2' this winter ..... imo, it's more about providing them with what they need , knowing what can kill them..... stuff is way less dangerous , if you know it's dangerous and know the dangers......

 

[idcowden]

Tortoises,should not be kept in pairs.

Clearly you missed the bottom line of my post.

Your enclosure is not big and not a good size. It is the minimum for one.

Well, it's not going to get any bigger this year although there is room for an extension once I have done some tree clearance. I think it's a bit bigger than I stated. There is 6ft x 6ft section with the cold frame in one corner, then a 5ft x 5ft section with a little pool in it for fresh water, then a little 1.5 x 3ft bit.

That is not the proper way to brumate them.

Why? What's wrong with natutal brumation?

Make changes asap that you should find in what Tom posted for you

I didn't bother with Tom's post. He's more interested in lecturing than discussion. You either subscribe to Tom's view or your don't.

The Tortoise Trust states that natural brumation has some advantages and disadvantages but there is nothing wrong with it.

The area is not prone to flooding and they are safe from foxes, badgers and rodents.

 

[wellington]

Clearly you missed the bottom line of my post.

Well, it's not going to get any bigger this year although there is room for an extension once I have done some tree clearance. I think it's a bit bigger than I stated. There is 6ft x 6ft section with the cold frame in one corner, then a 5ft x 5ft section with a little pool in it for fresh water, then a little 1.5 x 3ft bit.


Why? What's wrong with natutal brumation?

I didn't bother with Tom's post. He's more interested in lecturing than discussion. You either subscribe to Tom's view or your don't.

The Tortoise Trust states that natural brumation has some advantages and disadvantages but there is nothing wrong with it.

The area is not prone to flooding and they are safe from foxes, badgers and rodents.

Tortoise trust is not the place for info. If you want the correct info then you will stop thinking you have the correct info and read Tom's post and links.
Also click on Mark1 link in his first post.
As for missing the last line in your post, no I didn't. But you did state how you think they are getting on just fine, wrong.
Natural brumation is not natural in the small enclosure you and the rest of us provide for them, compared to their wild living.
You can keep following the bad info of the Trust, or you can read and learn from this forum and do the right things!

 

[idcowden]

Tortoise trust is not the place for info. If you want the correct info then you will stop thinking you have the correct info and read Tom's post and links.
Also click on Mark1 link in his first post.
As for missing the last line in your post, no I didn't. But you did state how you think they are getting on just fine, wrong.
Natural brumation is not natural in the small enclosure you and the rest of us provide for them, compared to their wild living.
You can keep following the bad info of the Trust, or you can read and learn from this forum and do the right things!

Thanks, I think it's been made clear that I'm not welcome here. I'll leave it to you lot and find a British tortoise discussion board. I saw Mark's link and the study seems to reinforce what I have been doing - they seem quite happy to self hibernate and the UK is fairly temperate with similar temperatures to those that they would get in their own country.

We don't have massive gardens over here in the UK. When the weather is nicer, I let them have a wander in the main garden and keep the weeds down.

Natural brumation has nothing to do with the size of the enclosure and everything to do with letting them do it naturally on their own terms as far as I can see.

I reduces the amount of food based on what is available in the hedgerows and they chose when to dig down. As it's their first time, I checked on them a lot. They seem to be fine, fit and healthy.

 

[wellington]

Thanks, I think it's been made clear that I'm not welcome here. I'll leave it to you lot and find a British tortoise discussion board. I saw Mark's link and the study seems to reinforce what I have been doing - they seem quite happy to self hibernate and the UK is fairly temperate with similar temperatures to those that they would get in their own country.

We don't have massive gardens over here in the UK. When the weather is nicer, I let them have a wander in the main garden and keep the weeds down.

Natural brumation has nothing to do with the size of the enclosure and everything to do with letting them do it naturally on their own terms as far as I can see.

I reduces the amount of food based on what is available in the hedgerows and they chose when to dig down. As it's their first time, I checked on them a lot. They seem to be fine, fit and healthy.

Sorry but you seem to not want to learn the proper way to keep these shelled friends
You won't find any better info than this forum, but you have to realize you didn't learn the proper care and be willing to relearn the right way.
No, the enclosure has nothing to do with brumating, it has to do with their health and the constant stress you are keeping them in
If you don't want to learn then good luck. But be sure to come back and let us know when things go wrong because you didn't want to open your mind and learn what is best for your tortoises.

 

[Tom]

...He's more interested in lecturing than discussion. You either subscribe to Tom's view or your don't.

This is both incorrect and absurd. What you are doing is not safe, and not correct. Offering 20C temps to a tortoise during brumation makes no sense in any country. Brumating them outside frequently leads to their death in one of several ways.

That is not a lecture. It is help so that you don't kill your tortoises, as so many before you have, due to ignorance. I don't want your tortoises to die so that you can learn this the hard way.

Thanks, I think it's been made clear that I'm not welcome here.

That is not true either. Because we didn't tell you what you wanted to hear does not mean that you are not welcome. Quite the opposite. We DO want you here so that we can help give you the information to care for your tortoises better. Our goal is to help tortoises and tortoise owners. If you leave, your tortoises will continue to suffer the wrong care you are offering, and as I said previously, you'll be lucky if they survive.

Natural brumation has nothing to do with the size of the enclosure and everything to do with letting them do it naturally on their own terms as far as I can see.

You keep using this term, "natural". There is nothing natural about captive conditions in a foreign country. Your weather is NOT like the weather where they come from, and they need help to survive it. A 20C cold frame outside in a small enclosure is NOT the kind of help they need.

As I've said many times before, you can lead a horse to water, but...

It serves no purpose for us to make up random info and tell you falsehoods. The info you have been given is based on decades of experience, experiments, and loads of trial and error. You don't have to make the same errors that people before you have made. There is a better way.

 

[idcowden]

No, the enclosure has nothing to do with brumating, it has to do with their health and the constant stress you are keeping them in. If you don't want to learn then good luck. But be sure to come back and let us know when things go wrong because you didn't want to open your mind and learn what is best for your tortoises.

Apparently what is best is moving to California so I can have a couple of acres for them to roam in. Not going to happen. My garden is 10m x 6m. So until someone invents a dimensional tardis, their enclosure isn't going to get bigger. We have a pair, because my wife bought a pair. The breeder had no issue with selling a pair to be kept together and they seem to get on with each other.

As I have said before if I see bad behaviour I will separate them but I don't have room for another enclosure. So the opern hostility to questions is a bit pointless.

 

[Tom]

Apparently what is best is moving to California so I can have a couple of acres for them to roam in. Not going to happen. My garden is 10m x 6m. So until someone invents a dimensional tardis, their enclosure isn't going to get bigger. We have a pair, because my wife bought a pair. The breeder had no issue with selling a pair to be kept together and they seem to get on with each other.

As I have said before if I see bad behaviour I will separate them but I don't have room for another enclosure. So the opern hostility to questions is a bit pointless.

You are being argumentative and ridiculous. The species you have is well suited to your climate, WITH THE APPROPRIATE HELP. Leaving them outside in winter and offering warm temps is not appropriate or safe or effective. They need help with temperatures and shelters in CA too, by the way.

No one cares about the size of your garden, including your tortoises. They need what they need, and no one said they need acres. That is just inflammatory.

The pair thing is not about open hostility. If you'd take a moment to read about it you might learn something instead of making backhanded comments. You are going to learn this lesson one way or another. We would prefer that you learn it before one or both of your tortoises get sick or die.

Why are you opposed to learning something new and being a better tortoise keeper? Why do you think the info we are attempting to give you differs from other info you've found? What makes you think you will get good advice from a UK forum as opposed to here? Instead of offhandedly dismissing someone who is trying to help you, how about we engage in a productive conversation. Ask questions. Ask for more clarification. Ask for explanation as to why we make the assertions we make. To flippantly dismiss this info is not good for you or for your tortoises.

 

[mark1]

i do hibernate my box turtles outside, actually all my turtles hibernate outdoors, in northeast ohio.... , i have used a refrigerator also ...... i've never done the food part , i just let them go into hibernation naturally , leave them out for about a month , dig them up and put them in a refrigerator .......

they do know what to do naturally , but you have to know what they need..... you need to know what are optimal conditions ....

the only thing that really is going to kill a healthy turtle or tortoise during hibernation is getting frozen..... keeping them too warm for long periods during the winter is not a good idea ...

i think your cold frame is fine , the ceramic heating element i think needs removed ...... 20c happens in the winter naturally , but not often , and not for long , if we get a 20C degree day in the winter it's probably -6c the following morning ....... the ground temperature is what they're using mostly during the winter......... temperature fluctuations are a part of "natural" hibernation.......

seeing the climate average in dover england (southeast england?) i'd be inclined to offer added heat in the late spring , summer and early fall , i'd personally use a mercury vapor bulb on a timer, a few hours around noon...... i'd not add heat in the winter , winters in southeast england appear much more mild than mine here , SE england summers are not nearly as warm as mine.......

maybe that chris guy from garden state tortoise has a video on what he does , it sounds similar to what your trying to do.....

 

[Tim Carlisle]

i do hibernate my box turtles outside, actually all my turtles hibernate outdoors, in northeast ohio.... , i have used a refrigerator also ...... i've never done the food part , i just let them go into hibernation naturally , leave them out for about a month , dig them up and put them in a refrigerator .......

they do know what to do naturally , but you have to know what they need..... you need to know what are optimal conditions ....

the only thing that really is going to kill a healthy turtle or tortoise during hibernation is getting frozen..... keeping them too warm for long periods during the winter is not a good idea ...

i think your cold frame is fine , the ceramic heating element i think needs removed ...... 20c happens in the winter naturally , but not often , and not for long , if we get a 20C degree day in the winter it's probably -6c the following morning ....... the ground temperature is what they're using mostly during the winter......... temperature fluctuations are a part of "natural" hibernation.......

seeing the climate average in dover england (southeast england?) i'd be inclined to offer added heat in the late spring , summer and early fall , i'd personally use a mercury vapor bulb on a timer, a few hours around noon...... i'd not add heat in the winter , winters in southeast england appear much more mild than mine here , SE england summers are not nearly as warm as mine.......

maybe that chris guy from garden state tortoise has a video on what he does , it sounds similar to what your trying to do.....

Not to hijack the thread, but I'd be curious to know what brumation preparation techniques you use in Northern Ohio (or more specifically, Ohio counties that experience lake effect weather). I'm kinda researching how methods and timing may differ from the non- lake effect counties. I'm in SW Ohio with comparatively mild winters.

 

[mark1]

what brumation preparation techniques you use in Northern Ohio (or more specifically, Ohio counties that experience lake effect weather)

for the land turtles , they have the same spot they have had for the last 20yrs, it's the highest part of the yard , it never holds water .....in september i break the soil up real good , no clumps, with a trenching shovel, the length of the blade deep, about 12", it's against a south facing wall of their pen , in winter it's all day sun...... i put piles of cut grass over the broken up soil , this attracts them to the spot like a magnet, they'll all be in the grass pile within 24hrs, no matter the temperature........ mostly all of them are in the grass pile by the time most of leaves have fallen, i pile leaves over the grass , by mid december there is probably a 3 foot leaf pile on top of them ......we had a week of single digits with no snow cover , it was sunny though, i put a tarp over the leaf pile , dark side up silver side down....... i'm actually taking the tarp off today , it gets too dry with the tarp , and we are having one of the warmest winters of my lifetime ...... i look around for anyone that isn't in the leaf pile when it's going to get real cold for the duration of the winter , and i put them in it..... the grass and leaves breaking down generate heat..... all the years of adding leaves and grass to the same spot have made the perfect soil for them to hibernate in ....... first year i used this spot i did add some sand to the soil...... i don't believe a wild turtle around here could find a more optimal spot than i provide.......

the water turtle , i just keep the water from freezing and try to minimize temperature fluctuations, which is accomplished by the pond being a rubber liner in the ground , and lots of large rocks in them...... i do put 150-250 watt de-icers in their ponds , i believe they go on when the water temp gets below 40F

 

[idcowden]

i think your cold frame is fine , the ceramic heating element i think needs removed ...... 20c happens in the winter naturally , but not often , and not for long , if we get a 20C degree day in the winter it's probably -6c the following morning ....... the ground temperature is what they're using mostly during the winter......... temperature fluctuations are a part of "natural" hibernation.......

The heating element is on a thermostat. If they choose to stand under it, they will get up to around 35c. If they are not pretty much directly under on the basking slab, the ambient temperature drifts downwards quickly. I have a thermostatic sensor on the back wall and on a cold night it will be around 6 to 8 degrees. During the day (if it's not sunny and still cold) temps will get up to 10-15 degrees tops.

seeing the climate average in dover england (southeast england?)

I'm a little further North than dover (that's about an hour's drive away) - quite close to London. SO we are a little warmer.

i'd be inclined to offer added heat in the late spring , summer and early fall , i'd personally use a mercury vapor bulb on a timer, a few hours around noon...... i'd not add heat in the winter , winters in southeast england appear much more mild than mine here , SE england summers are not nearly as warm as mine.......

Thanks for that tip. Yes, winters here are pretty mild. Our summers have been very hot for the last two years though - although not as hot as yours I suspect.

I was using a Mercury Vapour lamp, but because I was concerned about it getting too cold at night, plus the fact that they are now outdoors and get natural light, I switched to a ceramic heater bulb with no light output.

 

[idcowden]

Why are you opposed to learning something new and being a better tortoise keeper?

I'm not. I'm opposed to the open hostility I got for posting here.

What makes you think you will get good advice from a UK forum as opposed to here?

Because you are telling me to do stuff that isn't achievable in a UK back garden and seem to have little knowledge of our climate or wildlife. Your brumation threat is great but you talk about quick sharp changes in weather. We don't really get those. We get slow changes, sometimes with colder snaps that will last for a few days, but no severe weather changes in terms of temperature. Sometimes it can get a bit wet, but not as most countries would see heavy rain.

Instead of offhandedly dismissing someone who is trying to help you, how about we engage in a productive conversation. Ask questions. Ask for more clarification. Ask for explanation as to why we make the assertions we make. To flippantly dismiss this info is not good for you or for your tortoises.

I did ask for explanation and opinions. I got 3 posts with 10 page responses telling me I was going to kill the tortoises. No nuanced discussion. No suggestions. Just hostility.

I didn't decided to brumate the tortoises - I wasn't going to, but one decided to brumate herself. And now the other one has. The second one probably in response to much smaller quantities of food rather than the temperature alone. As I mentioned, I feed them from the hedgerows rather than using pellets or purchased salad.

 

[mark1]

i think before you hibernate a turtle or tortoise in any way, you need to understand what "brumation" is and isn't ....... if you understood it , you would know not to provide the heat you are providing, and you'd know why ......

 

[Tom]

I'm not. I'm opposed to the open hostility I got for posting here.

No one has been the least bit "hostile" toward you. Our/my only crime is not telling you what you wanted to hear.

Am I doing the right thing? Any opinions gratefully received.

You asked this question. I answered it honestly for the benefit of the tortoises in your care. If there was any hostility on this thread, it came from you in response to the opinions you asked for and received. You are clearly not grateful.

Because you are telling me to do stuff that isn't achievable in a UK back garden and seem to have little knowledge of our climate or wildlife. Your brumation threat is great but you talk about quick sharp changes in weather. We don't really get those. We get slow changes, sometimes with colder snaps that will last for a few days, but no severe weather changes in terms of temperature. Sometimes it can get a bit wet, but not as most countries would see heavy rain.

I am familiar with your weather patterns and have talked to UK members about this very subject for over a decade. There is nothing I've advised that isn't achievable in any yard anywhere in the world. I wrote the brumation thread with our many UK members in mind and my temperature controlled boxes will help any tortoise in any temperate climate anywhere in the world get prepared for brumation, and come out of brumation safely. If anything, it is even more helpful in your climate as your weather is less favorable and cooperative than some other areas of the world. This info even applies to tortoise held in captivity in their own native countries, like desert tortoises here in the southwestern US. People kill those here all the time by doing what you are doing there.

I didn't decided to brumate the tortoises - I wasn't going to, but one decided to brumate herself. And now the other one has.

This is EXACTLY what a person should not do and this is explained in the brumation thread very clearly. I can't understand why you refuse to accept advice on this matter from someone who has decades of experience with it. Is it some sort of pride thing? Stubbornness? It makes no sense. Why ask for help and then react as you have? Human behavior never ceases to surprise me...