Chuck C
New Member
I had an entire essay on how I feel about this situation, but I chose to delete it. I don't post much on here, but from the responses I did read, some people should keep their mouths shut.
I've learned over the years that I sometimes see things differently than "the majority". This being the case, I thought I'd ask for a consensus from the group.
I've sold many tortoise babies over the years and everything has gone very well with no problems. Well the inevitable has happened. A baby has died. I think most of the people reading know the care that goes into my babies, but try to look at this from an unbiased point of view.
Babies were hatched 6-9 months prior. 50 in total. All are now 80-100+ grams and thriving. I've got 14 left and the others have been sold and shipped all over the country into a variety of environments and enclosure types. As far as I know, all are doing well and there have been no problems.
The baby in question was shipped on January 3rd. I shipped it with a heat pack and a thermometer that records highs and lows. Temp in the insulated shipping box was between 84 and 64. No delays or problems with shipping. Customer said appetite was a little low on the day of arrival, but then it was fine after that. Customer reports daily soaks, and that temps are good in the enclosure. On June 8th, customer inquired about the tortoises birthdate, so they could celebrate annually, and all seemed good.
I inquired by text on how the baby was doing on Jan 19th and the answer was: "Looks good. It eats and poop well and is also active" No further contact until this morning.
At 8:11am this morning I get a text saying that the baby has died. Customer reports the temperatures and equipment used and I see no obvious problem. Soaking water was a little too hot (30-40C), but shouldn't be fatal. All else seems fine.
Customer is requesting a half refund. Customer thinks: "...our responsibility is half half."
No warranty was discussed at any time. Customer never asked about a guarantee and I never offered one. I don't sell anything but perfect healthy babies. I'm just a small private hobby breeder and as such, all of my babies get tremendous individual care and attention. I handle, inspect and care for them all daily. If ever there was a problem, I'd know every detail.
What say you all? Should I refund half the money? All of it? None of it? Please feel free to be blunt and honest with me.
Chuck I'd like to know how you feel about it. That's why I did the original post. Feel free to share your opinions on the matter. I won't even ask you to sugar coat it. Be as blunt as you want.I had an entire essay on how I feel about this situation, but I chose to delete it. I don't post much on here, but from the responses I did read, some people should keep their mouths shut.
dang hit post too soon. I am on the fence... I am puzzled by the fact that all was well until it was not, I guess that is possible but seems unlikely. I also get the impression from reading many post that you and the community as a whole are Very Knowledgeable and very 'available' to assist when asked. so basically I am stating the obvious. All that being said, what makes you feel 'right' about this particular request? My gut says a reasonable request as the loss was only about 30 days into the arrival.I have only recently discovered this forum, but I have read and re-read MANY of your very knowledgeable articles and it is obvious that other breeders have a great deal of respect for you. No question. I don't have a tortoise yet (waiting patiently for the 2019 hatch) so know absolutely NOTHING. I don't
I've learned over the years that I sometimes see things differently than "the majority". This being the case, I thought I'd ask for a consensus from the group.
I've sold many tortoise babies over the years and everything has gone very well with no problems. Well the inevitable has happened. A baby has died. I think most of the people reading know the care that goes into my babies, but try to look at this from an unbiased point of view.
Babies were hatched 6-9 months prior. 50 in total. All are now 80-100+ grams and thriving. I've got 14 left and the others have been sold and shipped all over the country into a variety of environments and enclosure types. As far as I know, all are doing well and there have been no problems.
The baby in question was shipped on January 3rd. I shipped it with a heat pack and a thermometer that records highs and lows. Temp in the insulated shipping box was between 84 and 64. No delays or problems with shipping. Customer said appetite was a little low on the day of arrival, but then it was fine after that. Customer reports daily soaks, and that temps are good in the enclosure. On June 8th, customer inquired about the tortoises birthdate, so they could celebrate annually, and all seemed good.
I inquired by text on how the baby was doing on Jan 19th and the answer was: "Looks good. It eats and poop well and is also active" No further contact until this morning.
At 8:11am this morning I get a text saying that the baby has died. Customer reports the temperatures and equipment used and I see no obvious problem. Soaking water was a little too hot (30-40C), but shouldn't be fatal. All else seems fine.
Customer is requesting a half refund. Customer thinks: "...our responsibility is half half."
No warranty was discussed at any time. Customer never asked about a guarantee and I never offered one. I don't sell anything but perfect healthy babies. I'm just a small private hobby breeder and as such, all of my babies get tremendous individual care and attention. I handle, inspect and care for them all daily. If ever there was a problem, I'd know every detail.
What say you all? Should I refund half the money? All of it? None of it? Please feel free to be blunt and honest with me.
I've learned over the years that I sometimes see things differently than "the majority". This being the case, I thought I'd ask for a consensus from the group.
I've sold many tortoise babies over the years and everything has gone very well with no problems. Well the inevitable has happened. A baby has died. I think most of the people reading know the care that goes into my babies, but try to look at this from an unbiased point of view.
Babies were hatched 6-9 months prior. 50 in total. All are now 80-100+ grams and thriving. I've got 14 left and the others have been sold and shipped all over the country into a variety of environments and enclosure types. As far as I know, all are doing well and there have been no problems.
The baby in question was shipped on January 3rd. I shipped it with a heat pack and a thermometer that records highs and lows. Temp in the insulated shipping box was between 84 and 64. No delays or problems with shipping. Customer said appetite was a little low on the day of arrival, but then it was fine after that. Customer reports daily soaks, and that temps are good in the enclosure. On June 8th, customer inquired about the tortoises birthdate, so they could celebrate annually, and all seemed good.
I inquired by text on how the baby was doing on Jan 19th and the answer was: "Looks good. It eats and poop well and is also active" No further contact until this morning.
At 8:11am this morning I get a text saying that the baby has died. Customer reports the temperatures and equipment used and I see no obvious problem. Soaking water was a little too hot (30-40C), but shouldn't be fatal. All else seems fine.
Customer is requesting a half refund. Customer thinks: "...our responsibility is half half."
No warranty was discussed at any time. Customer never asked about a guarantee and I never offered one. I don't sell anything but perfect healthy babies. I'm just a small private hobby breeder and as such, all of my babies get tremendous individual care and attention. I handle, inspect and care for them all daily. If ever there was a problem, I'd know every detail.
What say you all? Should I refund half the money? All of it? None of it? Please feel free to be blunt and honest with me.
Tom - Since no warranty/Guarantee was mentioned I don't think you are under any obligation to refund them. BUT - I would be very upset if I bought something (did everything right) and within two weeks it died. Would you send, if you have one, another Tort to them? Have them send their Tort back to you for examination/necropsy to see if you can find a defect? Since you do sell them and I'm sure you do sell Quality, you do not want a Bad Reference showing up somewhere.I've learned over the years that I sometimes see things differently than "the majority". This being the case, I thought I'd ask for a consensus from the group.
I've sold many tortoise babies over the years and everything has gone very well with no problems. Well the inevitable has happened. A baby has died. I think most of the people reading know the care that goes into my babies, but try to look at this from an unbiased point of view.
Babies were hatched 6-9 months prior. 50 in total. All are now 80-100+ grams and thriving. I've got 14 left and the others have been sold and shipped all over the country into a variety of environments and enclosure types. As far as I know, all are doing well and there have been no problems.
The baby in question was shipped on January 3rd. I shipped it with a heat pack and a thermometer that records highs and lows. Temp in the insulated shipping box was between 84 and 64. No delays or problems with shipping. Customer said appetite was a little low on the day of arrival, but then it was fine after that. Customer reports daily soaks, and that temps are good in the enclosure. On June 8th, customer inquired about the tortoises birthdate, so they could celebrate annually, and all seemed good.
I inquired by text on how the baby was doing on Jan 19th and the answer was: "Looks good. It eats and poop well and is also active" No further contact until this morning.
At 8:11am this morning I get a text saying that the baby has died. Customer reports the temperatures and equipment used and I see no obvious problem. Soaking water was a little too hot (30-40C), but shouldn't be fatal. All else seems fine.
Customer is requesting a half refund. Customer thinks: "...our responsibility is half half."
No warranty was discussed at any time. Customer never asked about a guarantee and I never offered one. I don't sell anything but perfect healthy babies. I'm just a small private hobby breeder and as such, all of my babies get tremendous individual care and attention. I handle, inspect and care for them all daily. If ever there was a problem, I'd know every detail.
What say you all? Should I refund half the money? All of it? None of it? Please feel free to be blunt and honest with me.
I know this is all resolved now but since no one gave a differing opinion, I'm going to play devil's advocate for a minute. Is it possible the temps during shipping played a role? I've read numerous times on here that babies should always be at at least 80 degrees. 64 seems pretty low in comparison.
You had said everything they had set up for the tortoise and their husbandry seemed ok to you and that's where the live animal comes into play. If I thought they killed it because of their negligence that changes things but you seemed to believe they were doing things correct.
Tom I wanted to reply to this and I say this with all due respect. I own two successful small businesses and a couple things you said stand out to me. You refer to this as a "Hobby" and you don't do it to for the money. If we take out of the equation the fact that the product in this instance is a living animal and only look at it from the "Business Dilemma" as you say, it changes a lot for me. The customer is always right! Several times a year I find myself dealing with a customer who is wrong but I always do everything I can to make them happy and especially if it is something I can solve financially. I would rather lose money and know my reputation is still great. You said you don't do it for the money so I would of sent a new tortoise to them and let them know I was doing it to make them happy but was under no obligation to do so and would not be doing it again in the future. You had said everything they had set up for the tortoise and their husbandry seemed ok to you and that's where the live animal comes into play. If I thought they killed it because of their negligence that changes things but you seemed to believe they were doing things correct. If that's true then this is strictly a financial decision. What is your reputation and your wanting happy customers worth to you?
OMG I don't understand people. I went from Zero to Hero tortie owner because of the knowledge and sharing on TFO!The problem with "the customer is always right" is that we are dealing with live animals, and there's a million things that can throw off a new baby. Many many (many) people will not tell you that their dog carried it outside or that they left it in a hot car or that their 2 year old took it in the bath with them, but that stuff does happen, and it happens a lot. More than once we have had people tell us a tortoise we sent them died after whatever amount of time (outside our normal 7 day guarantee). We always ask them for information and try and figure out why, but many times there's no obvious explanation. Many times I'm sure they know why it died, but they won't tell you that in the hopes of getting it replaced. We almost always ask for photos of the setup which about half the time you will never get a response to. More than once we have had photos taken from google sent to us claiming that was their setup (they were familiar photos to me when they sent them, I had seen them before). Someone sent me a photo I posted on facebook 5 years ago saying that was their setup. A few months ago, someone called my wife about this, said they had a "nice little setup." She asked for more information and they were unclear, just that it was set up right per our website. She finally got a photo out of them, and it was literally in a metal pan with no substrate, no light, no hide, placed next to a window with a couple of crumbs of food in there. This was like a month after they got it, they were asking why it wasn't eating (I'll try to attach a photo below, I kept this photo because I knew this would come up again). In their opinion, being next to the window was a light and heat source. People don't want to spend $100 on a tortoise and then be told they need to go spend $150 more to set it up right. They want to take shortcuts, and think they know better how to do it.
We have also caught past customers that we gave the benefit of the doubt to trying to take advantage of that again. I hate not believing the things that people tell us, but you have to be skeptical because more often than not, you can find the hole in their story. If you simply sent a replacement tortoise to everyone that said it had an eye closed one morning 3 months after they got it, you'd be going broke trying to keep up with that. If you know you're not losing animals when you keep them or grow them up yourself, you can be confident that you're not sending out sub-par animals. I think Tom was absolutely in the right here, but I think the guarantee needs to be clarified ahead of time for future transactions. If the customer had been told (or better yet, signed) something saying it was guaranteed for 3 or 7 days (or whatever), their expectation of a partial or full refund after 30 days may have not happened. Many of us selling tortoises don't make their primary living from tortoises. For us, my day job covers my daily bills. My wife does women's hair and eyelash extensions to the tune of a few clients a day, and she keeps that money so I don't have to buy her clothes and shoes LOL. The tortoise money, if we make a profit in a given window of time, allows us some fun money for the kids, and more importantly to me, creates a bunch of tax write-offs. There is a lot of costs in keeping large groups of tortoises, we shouldn't feel bad trying to make money at the end of the day.
View attachment 264796