Mixing species

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tglazie

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Well, Brian, I meant no offense. I was just presenting my argument based upon my own experiences, which is more than I can say for your posts in this thread, which are nothing more than a series of declarative statements backed up by no justification or evidence whatsoever. For instance, your notion that the hobby isn't a part and parcel of preservation takes a giant dump on the work of Chris and countless others who do conservation work and attempt to preserve local forms for the future, given the dire outlook most of these species face in the wild. Many species are losing ground, especially in east Asia, and I believe captive breeding and eventual rerelease is the only hope for many species. Breeding turtles and tortoises in captivity also reduces the stress on wild populations. Were it not for captive breeding, my favorite species, the marginated tortoise, would be unavailable in captivity today, and were it not for the work of captive keepers, civilization's collective knowledge of these animals would be substantially less as well. And I suspected that you didn't have any qualms about hybridization, but unlike you, I don't go around foolishly assuming the nature of other's views. And look, if you want to insult me by saying my statements are "lame" without actually addressing exactly what fault you find in them, go right ahead. Insulting my argument doesn't refute it, and you can't deny that keeping a turtle/tortoise by itself is "incorrect." This isn't a playground, and we aren't five years old. Calling what I say lame isn't going to accomplish anything, but hey, if you've got a problem with me or what I've said, that's on you, partner.

T.G.
 

Tom

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Well, Brian, I meant no offense. I was just presenting my argument based upon my own experiences, which is more than I can say for your posts in this thread, which are nothing more than a series of declarative statements backed up by no justification or evidence whatsoever. For instance, your notion that the hobby isn't a part and parcel of preservation takes a giant dump on the work of Chris and countless others who do conservation work and attempt to preserve local forms for the future, given the dire outlook most of these species face in the wild. Many species are losing ground, especially in east Asia, and I believe captive breeding and eventual rerelease is the only hope for many species. Breeding turtles and tortoises in captivity also reduces the stress on wild populations. Were it not for captive breeding, my favorite species, the marginated tortoise, would be unavailable in captivity today, and were it not for the work of captive keepers, civilization's collective knowledge of these animals would be substantially less as well.

Many good points here. Chris is a fine example of the kind of work that all of us should strive for. I've been and admirer of his work and his tortoises for several years now.

I'm doing the same with my SA leopards, Sudan sulcatas, and to a lesser degree because I don't know the localities, my Burmese stars. Captive breeding is the only thing saving Geochelone platynota from extinction. Literally.
 

tglazie

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That's great, Tom. Burmese stars have always been one of my dream tortoises. It is truly heartbreaking to see their wild status in such dire straits, but seeing more and more folks who have had success in reproducing them has made me very hopeful for the species' future prospects. Hopefully we folks in the tortoise community are able to properly identify and save what few local forms remain.

T.G.
 

MichaelaW

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Many good points here. Chris is a fine example of the kind of work that all of us should strive for. I've been and admirer of his work and his tortoises for several years now.

I'm doing the same with my SA leopards, Sudan sulcatas, and to a lesser degree because I don't know the localities, my Burmese stars. Captive breeding is the only thing saving Geochelone platynota from extinction. Literally.
Agreed! Chris is an great example for us all. He is an incredible person.
 

BrianWI

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Well, Brian, I meant no offense. I was just presenting my argument based upon my own experiences, which is more than I can say for your posts in this thread, which are nothing more than a series of declarative statements backed up by no justification or evidence whatsoever. For instance, your notion that the hobby isn't a part and parcel of preservation takes a giant dump on the work of Chris and countless others who do conservation work and attempt to preserve local forms for the future, given the dire outlook most of these species face in the wild. Many species are losing ground, especially in east Asia, and I believe captive breeding and eventual rerelease is the only hope for many species. Breeding turtles and tortoises in captivity also reduces the stress on wild populations. Were it not for captive breeding, my favorite species, the marginated tortoise, would be unavailable in captivity today, and were it not for the work of captive keepers, civilization's collective knowledge of these animals would be substantially less as well. And I suspected that you didn't have any qualms about hybridization, but unlike you, I don't go around foolishly assuming the nature of other's views. And look, if you want to insult me by saying my statements are "lame" without actually addressing exactly what fault you find in them, go right ahead. Insulting my argument doesn't refute it, and you can't deny that keeping a turtle/tortoise by itself is "incorrect." This isn't a playground, and we aren't five years old. Calling what I say lame isn't going to accomplish anything, but hey, if you've got a problem with me or what I've said, that's on you, partner.

T.G.
The problem is your arguments are so loaded with logical fallacies that they aren't worth a dang. That is hardly my fault.

You keeping torts as pets will NEVER EVER EVER save the species. Nothing you will ever do or work with will be released back to the wild and save wild populations. If you think that, you are completely mistaken. You simply do not know what you are talking about and are trying to sound grandiose. Sorry, that is all the truth. You just have pet turtles, nothing more. You are not doing conservation work. Let's stop pretending it is different.
 

Yvonne G

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There's no need to talk like that, Brian. You can make your point just as well without trying to make the other person feel small.
 

BrianWI

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There's no need to talk like that, Brian. You can make your point just as well without trying to make the other person feel small.
Yvonne,

I made ZERO insults. I told the truth. Pet turtles DOES NOT EQUAL conservation. 99.99999% of the people who have pet turtles and tortoises have nothing to do with conservation. Let's take a count of the people on this board who have had their tortoises reintroduced into the wild as a conservation effort. Share copies of the permits with us for verification.

Don't get mad at me because I won't buy into these false narratives. He talks about not being on a playground in his post. Then stop pretending. Simple as that.

He wants to argue that torts should live alone. But there are some EXCELLENT threads where keepers have a huge heard of redfoots living well. Nice groups of boxies doing well. There is a thread on a huge pond build with multiple species of turtles, all that look great. Go tell them how wrong it is.
 
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wellington

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Yvonne,

I made ZERO insults. I told the truth. Pet turtles DOES NOT EQUAL conservation. 99.99999% of the people who have pet turtles and tortoises have nothing to do with conservation. Let's take a count of the people on this board who have had their tortoises reintroduced into the wild as a conservation effort. Share copies of the permits with us for verification.

Don't get mad at me because I won't buy into these false narratives. He talks about not being on a playground in his post. Then stop pretending. Simple as that.

He wants to argue that torts should live alone. But there are some EXCELLENT threads where keepers have a huge heard of redfoots living well. Nice groups of boxies doing well. There is a thread on a huge pond build with multiple species of turtles, all that look great. Go tell them how wrong it is.
You don't have to stop buying into anything. You do have to stop being so rude and belittling other members!
Btw, having a pet tortoise that is being bred, does save a species. They may not be let go back into the wild, but if we own them, breed them, they can't become extinct!
 

BrianWI

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You don't have to stop buying into anything. You do have to stop being so rude and belittling other members!
Btw, having a pet tortoise that is being bred, does save a species. They may not be let go back into the wild, but if we own them, breed them, they can't become extinct!
So you equate an animal existing in your enclosure as being saved? Well, then lets stop worrying about habitat loss, etc.! If the truth is rude to you, maybe your viewpoint needs adjusting?
 

BrianWI

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Seems the clique is attacking again because I won't agree to their demands that I agree with every stance they take.
 

Yvonne G

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Yvonne,

I made ZERO insults. I told the truth. Pet turtles DOES NOT EQUAL conservation. 99.99999% of the people who have pet turtles and tortoises have nothing to do with conservation. Let's take a count of the people on this board who have had their tortoises reintroduced into the wild as a conservation effort. Share copies of the permits with us for verification.

Don't get mad at me because I won't buy into these false narratives. He talks about not being on a playground in his post. Then stop pretending. Simple as that.

He wants to argue that torts should live alone. But there are some EXCELLENT threads where keepers have a huge heard of redfoots living well. Nice groups of boxies doing well. There is a thread on a huge pond build with multiple species of turtles, all that look great. Go tell them how wrong it is.

Your facts, and how you perceive them, were ok. It's just the way you presented them. You didn't have to say his arguments aren't worth a dang. And if you're going to say the arguments are full of fallacies, then it might be a good idea to say what those fallacies are and how they are fallacies. You didn't have to say he doesn't know what he's talking about and he's just trying to sound grandiose. This makes YOU sound grandiose.

It's quite ok for you to have a different opinion, to use coil shaped bulbs and mix your species, but be a little more diplomatic in the way you talk to those who don't share those beliefs.
 
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leigti

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Seems the clique is attacking again because I won't agree to their demands that I agree with every stance they take.
I think you just want to start a fight. You like riling people up. You state your opinions as if they are facts, and treat everybody else's facts like they are crap. I don't do absolutely everything the way that many people say it should be done when it comes to how I picture my animals, but I appreciate eight hearing different views and viewpoints. And I like some facts to go along with the anecdotal information. You say there are clicks here on the forum, welcome to life. There's also a group of people that know what they're doing and are willing to share their experiences and give good advice. What exactly are you doing?
 

leigti

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Captive breeding can stop species from going extinct. It may or may not help with the species going extinct in the wild. But there's only so much one person can do to help with habitat destruction etc. I think captive breeding is a good thing. I don't want to see any species go extinct in the wild, but it would be even worse if they were extinct everywhere.
 

BrianWI

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Your facts, and how you perceive them, were ok. It's just they way you presented them. You didn't have to say his arguments aren't worth a dang. And if you're going to say the arguments are full of fallacies, then it might be a good idea to say what those fallacies are and how they are fallacies. You didn't have to say he doesn't know what he's talking about and he's just trying to sound grandiose. This makes YOU sound grandiose.

It's quite ok for you to have a different opinion, to use coil shaped bulbs and mix your species, but be a little more diplomatic in the way you talk to those who don't share those beliefs.
If I were to point out all the logical fallacies in his arguments, this would be a thread on logical fallacies. If you truly want me to teach these people to debate and make valid arguments, make sure you have thought through this carefully. Because, in truth, his arguments are very poor. I will give you an example here, unrelated to this post, to help your decision.

Tom constantly says that despite MOUNDS of scientific test data, he is right because he has "seen it" hurt tortoises eyes. No, he can't produce a bad bulb, but it must be true because he experienced it. That is an anecdotal fallacy and therefore a poor argument, a logical fallacy.

Read https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal

Is this what you want?
 

BrianWI

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Captive breeding can stop species from going extinct. It may or may not help with the species going extinct in the wild. But there's only so much one person can do to help with habitat destruction etc. I think captive breeding is a good thing. I don't want to see any species go extinct in the wild, but it would be even worse if they were extinct everywhere.
When you breed pet turtles, you only get more pet turtles. It is not conservation. If you think it is, you are wrong. Sorry?
 

leigti

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I don't like intentionally mixing species, unlike dogs for example, tortoises are naturally different depending on where they live. We don't need to domesticate them make a bunch of designer tortoises. I think it is important to keep the gene pool "pure" whatever that means.
 

wellington

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So you equate an animal existing in your enclosure as being saved? Well, then lets stop worrying about habitat loss, etc.! If the truth is rude to you, maybe your viewpoint needs adjusting?
Did did I say anything about habitat? Read what is written, not what you already have formed in your head. All I said! If we own them or breed them, then they can't go extinct!! That's the only statement of yours I disputed!!
On another note. I have asked the following of you before, and received nothing. When you dispute people, say things about their statements being so wrong. You really should show some proof up your own. Otherwise you are guilty of the same thing you are saying about the person you are disputing.
All you need to do to get along here is get your point across without belittling!! It's that stinking easy!
 

BrianWI

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I think you just want to start a fight. You like riling people up. You state your opinions as if they are facts, and treat everybody else's facts like they are crap. I don't do absolutely everything the way that many people say it should be done when it comes to how I picture my animals, but I appreciate eight hearing different views and viewpoints. And I like some facts to go along with the anecdotal information. You say there are clicks here on the forum, welcome to life. There's also a group of people that know what they're doing and are willing to share their experiences and give good advice. What exactly are you doing?

No, the problem only happens when I disagree with the clique. That is not coincidence. People sometimes cling to a point of view and get angry when challenged. Then they make poor arguments to back up their "facts". Then they get mad when their arguments are challenged as being poor. Then the clique will refuse to let it go. Mob mentality ensues. Pretty common, think Michael Brown.
 

wellington

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Your facts, and how you perceive them, were ok. It's just the way you presented them. You didn't have to say his arguments aren't worth a dang. And if you're going to say the arguments are full of fallacies, then it might be a good idea to say what those fallacies are and how they are fallacies. You didn't have to say he doesn't know what he's talking about and he's just trying to sound grandiose. This makes YOU sound grandiose.

It's quite ok for you to have a different opinion, to use coil shaped bulbs and mix your species, but be a little more diplomatic in the way you talk to those who don't share those beliefs.
Not really sure Yvonne he had any "facts". His opinion yes, I didn't see any facts!
 
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