Mirror in enclosure

[Alex77]

Okay, so in a bid to spice up my Gaia's enclosure during winter (she didn't want to leave it due to the uninspiring weather) I put a mirror in there to inspire her. She ignored it for a bit but one day I saw her bobbing her head at it and now, she constantly lies down in front of it, face to face. I've heard that head bobbing is aggressive and am wondering if the mirror may be upsetting her somehow - maybe she's afraid it's another tort trying to stare her down & psyche her out. Lol!

Does anyone else have any experience of using mirrors in enclosures? Is it a good thing or a bad thing? I don't want to take it away if its not doing any harm, since she is quite fixated on it. Part of me fears she might actually miss the mirror or something.

Thoughts? Gaia is a 1.5 year old Greek.

 

[dmmj]

I imagine she thinks it's another tortoise. If it was me /i would take it out, and to spice up her enclosure, i would add another hide ior two, some plants, things /i know she would enjoy, if it was me. I can't say she is hating the mirror with any certau=inty, but my gut tells me she is prob. intimidated by it, again my gut tells me that.

 

[wellington]

I agree with dmmj. My leopard always seemed to enjoy just a change up of the enclosure. Move things around, not always in the same place. Also, if she were to break the mirror, she could get cut up or worse, try to eat some of it.

 

[leigti]

I would pick it out. She probably thinks it is another tortoise that will not leave. I would think that this would cause stress.

 

[tortdad]

I'd pull it out so as to not stress her out.

 

[Alex77]

Okie dokie, the jury seems to be unanimous. I will try to find another way to make her enclosure fun Am thinking of installing a second level this time...

Good point about the broken glass. It's a very solidly framed mirror, but still... better safe than sorry.

 

[Itort]

I would agree with dmmj. She sees the mirror as another tortoise and head bobbing can be a social threat in some tortoises (I have no experience with Greeks but in my Redfoots and Forstens it is).

 

[puffy137]

.

Okay, so in a bid to spice up my Gaia's enclosure during winter (she didn't want to leave it due to the uninspiring weather) I put a mirror in there to inspire her. She ignored it for a bit but one day I saw her bobbing her head at it and now, she constantly lies down in front of it, face to face. I've heard that head bobbing is aggressive and am wondering if the mirror may be upsetting her somehow - maybe she's afraid it's another tort trying to stare her down & psyche her out. Lol!

Does anyone else have any experience of using mirrors in enclosures? Is it a good thing or a bad thing? I don't want to take it away if its not doing any harm, since she is quite fixated on it. Part of me fears she might actually miss the mirror or something.

Thoughts? Gaia is a 1.5 year old Greek.

Darn I'm always a subversive , but I don't see the harm . If she/he is still a baby she won't have enough force to break it, but you could use it while you are watching. I disagree about tortoises not being lonely too , I think this is affording her some harmless amusement , I would try it myself if I had a lone baby , but I think because I have so many they would just ignore the mirror as they basically ignore each other. Yesterday I did see a large adult male touch noses with a younger male , it only lasted a few seconds ,looked like they were saying hello........I can just hear everyone else groan.

 

[Gillian M]

I imagine she thinks it's another tortoise. If it was me /i would take it out, and to spice up her enclosure, i would add another hide ior two, some plants, things /i know she would enjoy, if it was me. I can't say she is hating the mirror with any certau=inty, but my gut tells me she is prob. intimidated by it, again my gut tells me that.

I believe that what the members told you is true:

-your tort may think it's another tort and bullying may begin with the mirror!
-as a result your tort could harm/injure itself GOD forbid.

Better be safe than sorry-I'd take the mirror out IMMEDIATELY and replace it with something safer.Good luck.

 

[Alex77]

Yep it already came out last night after reading the first few replies.

I actually put it in there as a kind of experiment to see how she reacts-she spent almost a year in a pet shop surrounded by others her age and I wanted to see if she enjoyed company. I was afraid she may be lonely (like puffy). But I'm still not certain is she is, one way or the other...

She only acted territorially to the mirror once and after that she was passive so I dunno what to make of that except, If I did buy her a friend, it would have to be the same size as her and it would have to have a separate enclosure in case of clashes. So that's going to have to wait till I have a bigger flat!

Thanks for all the replies!

 

[Tom]

Understand something: Tortoises don't get "lonely" and other tortoises are not "friends". Because they lack the cognitive ability to understand what a mirror is, you have effectively brought an intruder into your tortoises enclosure. Your tortoise is sending the behavioral and visual cues to this other tortoise to get out of its territory.

In the short term, this might actually make your tortoise feel like its one a territorial dispute. This would require you to show the tortoise the mirror, let it posture for a moment, and then remove the mirror. The absence of the "foe" would then make your tortoise feel like the victor in this "battle". Leaving the mirror in there for longer periods of time could only be construed as an ongoing, un-winable battle and would be a source of chronic stress for your tortoise.

 

[Alex77]

Not really sure I like your tone there, Tom: "Understand something"?? what makes you so sure that you know any more than I do what a tortoise feels?

I don't get why certain members here seem to get so uptight about any *discussion* of how tortoises may or may not feel. I'm certainly not claiming to be an expert in that area, after all, and as I've said *time and again*, I don't base long term care plans on how I think my tort feels.

It was an experiment and since its not working out, I've ended it - which you would know if you read my earlier comments here.

Also I really don't get why you sound upset about even the prospect of tortoises sharing space. Clearly, many people do it. Clearly, the previous owners of my tort did it with her. So why is it such a big deal to you?

 

[Killerrookie]

Not really sure I like your tone there, Tom: "Understand something"?? what makes you so sure that you know any more than I do what a tortoise feels?

I don't get why certain members here seem to get so uptight about any *discussion* of how tortoises may or may not feel. I'm certainly not claiming to be an expert in that area, after all, and as I've said *time and again*, I don't base long term care plans on how I think my tort feels.

It was an experiment and since its not working out, I've ended it - which you would know if you read my earlier comments here.

Also I really don't get why you sound upset about even the prospect of tortoises sharing space. Clearly, many people do it. Clearly, the previous owners of my tort did it with her. So why is it such a big deal to you?

I don't think he was trying to seem rude.

 

[Yvonne G]

We're only trying to keep your tortoise from undue stress. It's good that you've taken the mirror out. I'm sure you've seen the YouTube vids of the little greek tortoise chasing the cat or dog. They're scrappy little tortoises and they don't want other 'tortoises' in their territory. With a mirror, where the tortoise being chased never leaves, this would be pretty stressful on your little guy. Mirrors in bird cages are a whole other matter, but in a tortoise habitat, I'm glad you've removed it.

 

[Alex77]

I don't think he was trying to seem rude.

Really? Well maybe condescending is a better word for it but starting a sentence with an imperative is never a polite way to introduce ones point. Call me old fashioned...

 

[HLogic]

Really? Well maybe condescending is a better word for it but starting a sentence with an imperative is never a polite way to introduce ones point. Call me old fashioned...

For my part, and I think Tom will agree, I don't practice PC. I don't believe either of us intend to be rude or condescending but neither of us have a fear of telling the truth. We are here for the tort's welfare not the owner's. Please try to understand that even someone with the best intentions doing something contraindicated is someone doing something contraindicated and will likely be told as much in a direct fashion from the two of us.

It is more unsettling to me to be 'massaged' in the commonly accepted nouveau politeness than to be told "you're wrong!". Call me older fashioned!

 

[Tom]

Not really sure I like your tone there, Tom: "Understand something"?? what makes you so sure that you know any more than I do what a tortoise feels?

I don't get why certain members here seem to get so uptight about any *discussion* of how tortoises may or may not feel. I'm certainly not claiming to be an expert in that area, after all, and as I've said *time and again*, I don't base long term care plans on how I think my tort feels.

It was an experiment and since its not working out, I've ended it - which you would know if you read my earlier comments here.

Also I really don't get why you sound upset about even the prospect of tortoises sharing space. Clearly, many people do it. Clearly, the previous owners of my tort did it with her. So why is it such a big deal to you?

Wow. This is a surprise. You started a thread asking for people's "thoughts" on this matter. I shared mine with you and you take offense? Why?

No matter. I will take the time to answer your question and points.

What makes me so sure I know more about what a tortoise feels? I've held degrees in "Animal Behavior Management" and "Wildlife Education" since 1996. I am a career professional animal trainer and have been studying, manipulating, modifying and "training" exotic animals since 1986. I've been keeping chelonians since 1979. I've been working with many vets in my area to solve tortoise husbandry and behavioral issues for decades. I've done countless of my own experiments on behavior and growing techniques with many species of tortoises over many years. I could go on, but I think the point is made. I don't know everything, but I do know that two tortoises will not be "happy" living together as a pair in most instances and seeing other tortoises in their enclosure can be a cause of chronic stress.

Why am I uptight about this? Because I have seen tragedy after tragedy for decades caused by intelligent people with good intentions and love for their pets, because no one told them any better. Ignorance kills and harms tortoises. I do my level best to eradicate ignorance wherever I can, my own ignorance included. If that meets your criteria for "uptight", then color me guilty as charged. I don't like to see tortoise sick or injured, so I spend large amounts of my time trying to share what I have learned over the years, so that others don't have to learn the hard way, as I did.

I DID read your previous posts and saw the experiment was over. I was trying to join in the discussion that you asked for and share my insight. I apologize if I misunderstood that we were supposed to give our opinions on this matter.

Tortoises sharing space? Why is it such a big deal to me? Perhaps a story will illustrate why I care so much. Last year we had a member join with two redfoot tortoises. She was seeing some signs of intimidation, but failed to realize the gravity of the situation. I, and several other members advised her to separate her pair, even though redfoots are generally pretty peaceful with each other. This new member didn't post a whole lot, but six weeks later came back and started a new thread asking for advice on what to do about her current problem. It seems that one of her tortoises had basically bitten off the tail and most of the leg of her other tortoise over that six week period. She too was incredulous that anyone was upset with her for this.

It should be clear that the vast majority of people don't understand tortoise behavior. Have you seen the threads posted here a couple of times a year of one tortoise flipping another back on to its feet? The comments often demonstrate a complete lack of understanding that tortoise combat is being witnessed. People think its cute the one tortoise "helped" another, until someone comes along and points out what it really happening.

So to answer your question, it is a big deal to me because I don't like to see tortoises sick, injured or harmed in any way. There are some pretty common tortoise practices that lead to disaster, and I'm trying like heck to prevent that when I can.

Do you like my tone better now?

 

[Tom]

For my part, and I think Tom will agree, I don't practice PC. I don't believe either of us intend to be rude or condescending but neither of us have a fear of telling the truth. We are here for the tort's welfare not the owner's. Please try to understand that even someone with the best intentions doing something contraindicated is someone doing something contraindicated and will likely be told as much in a direct fashion from the two of us.

It is more unsettling to me to be 'massaged' in the commonly accepted nouveau politeness than to be told "you're wrong!". Call me older fashioned!

Well worded as usual, and I do agree. I would also prefer to be given helpful info in a more direct, straightforward manner. Following "The Golden Rule" has landed me in the proverbial hot water more than once.

In summation, this may be another case of "Different strokes for different folks..."

 

[puffy137]

I think 'understand something ' did sound a bit 'off' . I was about to say ' wuff wuff' & head for the 'naughty chair '. I'm sure Tom 's heart is in the right place, its what my mother called his 'manner ' No harm done ! We all luckily have a right to voice our opinions no matter how peculiar.

And just to conclude ' People who think they know everything , are a great annoyance to those of us who do !' .............JOKE ! JOKE !!!!

 

[ZEROPILOT]

Tom might not be a politician, but he IS a wealth or tortoise knowledge.
Mirrors are a "trick" used in the show fish trade to get male fish to flare their gills and show their full coloration.
It's also extremely stressful.
The truth is the truth any way that it is told.