Little emys emys growth and questions

[mikeh]

I have had these two since early May. They arrived from Florida at 3.75" SLC, 110g and 105g
Six months later they weigh 297g and 294g after a bowel movement and before feeding. Current SLC is 4.75".
They feel like dense sharp edged rocks and are getting quite thick & wide. One is developing into a longer oval shape, the other one is getting quite round. Could this be indication of different sexes?

Their shell while feeling strong flexes quite a bit, especially the plastron. Their belly actually bloats after the volume of food they ingest. I read this is normal and will harden with time? At what size does their shell get solid hard?



Some recent pics enjoying the last rays of the season.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Manouria tortoises may never fully fill in their fenestra, the gaps in bone that make up the underlying shell. As they get older it fills in more and becomes 'thicker', but may never be complete.

I have been involved with a few necropsies of older, but not giant individuals and the gaps in the underlying shell were still there, the biggest was about ten pounds.

I've seen shell specimens in museums where the margin of the fenestra is nearly closed from one side to the other on several parts of the carapace, and fully closed on others. I don't know what the live weight of those would have been, but they were well over a foot in length.

As those gaps fill in the shell will be more rigid.

Will

 

[mikeh]

Thanks for the lesson, Will. Think I am now grasping of what is happening beneath the shell.
Would this be related to upward swelling of the new growth when exposed to drier conditions out of their moist chamber? When taken outside, (60-65% humidity) the scutes noticeably swell up within half hour or so. Once back in the chamber it takes a day or two for the swelling to reverse to smooth. What does all this mean in long term shell shape development? Limit the exposure to outdoors for now?

Images below, smooth scutes while in chamber.


The swelling of the newest growth after exposure to outdoors.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

The hatchlings I have right now do the same thing. Your suggested cause and effect makes sense to me, but that does not make it 'what is'. In short I do not know for sure. Will

 

[keemi1122]

I've seen shell specimens in museums where the margin of the fenestra is nearly closed
from one side to the other on several parts of the carapace, and fully closed on others. I don't know what the live weight of those would have been, but they were well over a foot in length..........!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!






kaleem

 

[russian/sulcata/tortoise]

cute little torts!

 

[81SHOVELHEAD]

Not sure how to answer your question but I purchased a pair of the Browns @ a reptile expo in October 2011 ( Hatch date was September 2010)
The male was 3 3/4" SCL & Female was 3 1/2" SCL
My male is now right @ 10" SCL & Female is 8" SCL .
They grow fast & are very sociable little creatures .
They are on the same diet redfoots Leafy greens (mustard,collards,turnips) . Fruit ( plumbs,pears,apples.strawberry's ,blueberry's) & MUZURI Tortoise diet . I only feed them fruit once a week if that often
Attached you will find photos of when I got them & photos I took this past summer .
They are in a 18' x21' x6' tall enclosure 365 /24/7 .
I have a 4'x8' heated building I put them in once temps get down in the lower 50"s
Mike D

 

[teresaf]

Hopefully it's not an issue because my baby blacks do the same thing. I'm surprised that you are able to get them so smooth actually, good job. I haven't been able to get mine that smooth. One is smoother than the other but I think that's just because he has a fondness for the water bowl. LOL. I have kept mine at a pretty high humidity with a fogger but have just switched to a more closed in tortoise table with heating pads and a lamp at one end. What is your chamber set up like? Humidity levels and such?

 

[Yvonne G]

Excellent repurposing of the window!!

 

[teresaf]

Thanks! I like it. I have it right there in my livingroom so they get all the attention they need. Plus I can keep an eye on them. I was a little concerned when one of the little buggers crawled out on top of the 'shell' hide. I was worried all night(like an over protective mamma) that he'd do it again and he'd fall off! How long can they live if they flip over and are not able to right themselves?

 

[Yvonne G]

Hard to say. As long as they're not directly under a hot light, it might not be too bad.

 

[teresaf]

no, i have the light over the biggest rock. That area is relatively flat. They can't die in just an hour upside down, can they? There are usually people around that glance in now and then so i don't think it's an issue? I'm new at this and am taking alot of yours, tom and vics advise about their care. If you see anything in the pics that concern you please everyone speak up. I spent alot of time and am proud of the setup but my nose won't get bent too much if someone wants to shoot some constructive criticism my way that'll keep my babies healthy! Keep in mind I JUST put them in there yesterday and I can't put many plants in there since the good one's aren't sold til spring...

 

[bouaboua]

Very nice looking torts you have！!！!！!

 

[emysbreeder]

Thanks for the lesson, Will. Think I am now grasping of what is happening beneath the shell.
Would this be related to upward swelling of the new growth when exposed to drier conditions out of their moist chamber? When taken outside, (60-65% humidity) the scutes noticeably swell up within half hour or so. Once back in the chamber it takes a day or two for the swelling to reverse to smooth. What does all this mean in long term shell shape development? Limit the exposure to outdoors for now?

Images below, smooth scutes while in chamber.
View attachment 60448View attachment 60449

The swelling of the newest growth after exposure to outdoors.
View attachment 60450

.... I've been looking at babies for over 20+ years and have seen varying degrees of the "raised" growth from slight to extreme, within the same environment. Pictures of them in Nature at young ages have the raised edges around the outside of scute. Some smooth out over a long time but a few stay that way even when 10+ yrs.old. The shell structure cannot "'change" in a few days .Here is the answer why, the "chamber" is full of H2O, this moisture is absorbed into the very pores shell and fills the shell in with water like a sponge. This fills in the void space Will is talking about making the shell look smoother. I see the raised growth ridge around the scute at all times with high humidity, as I dont let them become dry. SIDE NOTE. Given a choice in a very large enclosure my juvies and adults will at times seek out a dry place. For example during nesting the females look for a dry area to build their nest. I will dry one out just to see what happens. I'll get back with pictures. Someone would have to keep one dry for a long time to see if the raised part is permanent. This could cause respiratory problems, as they can not handle dry lungs. I think in the long run, like here, they just smooth out with age in most cases. It is just natural growth development and part of the shell metamorphose. Some of the animals I produced back in the ninety's have done well without a "chamber" and some have reproduced including several here. This "chamber" may be a good tool in ares of very low humidity. I,ve known some that live in Calif. and kept outside. They have good shaped shells. If Mt.Tortoises are kept too dry, they will die, so, water them like a plant, they will be fine. Vic

 

[emysbreeder]

Thanks for the lesson, Will. Think I am now grasping of what is happening beneath the shell.
Would this be related to upward swelling of the new growth when exposed to drier conditions out of their moist chamber? When taken outside, (60-65% humidity) the scutes noticeably swell up within half hour or so. Once back in the chamber it takes a day or two for the swelling to reverse to smooth. What does all this mean in long term shell shape development? Limit the exposure to outdoors for now?

Images below, smooth scutes while in chamber.
View attachment 60448View attachment 60449

The swelling of the newest growth after exposure to outdoors.
View attachment 60450

How will you keep them in the "chamber" once they become 10, 20, 50, 70+ lbs. Or is it your belief they will not need this method at ? weight/age. I just dont want new mt.tortoise owners or those thinking about it and are investigating what it takes to keep them, to read this forum (and there are many who read but never reply) and think they must keep them this labor intensive way. Thanks Vic