Too much humidity and reversed pyramiding?

[mikeh]

Hi. My 2 emys smys are showing very noticeable reversed pyramiding on the new growth. Is this caused by too much humidity, and is it normal or do I need to make adjustments?
Some info about them. I aquired them about 3 months ago. They seem to be doing very well and show lots of new growth, activity, appetite, alertness, etc. They were just under 4" when they arrived, now they are over 4". They are in 2x4 fully closed chamber. The dual digital meter from lowes reads constant 99% humidity in the enclosure everywhere. I believe its not an error as when I take it out the numbers drops. I mist them twice a day, dont really soak them as I see them hanging out in the water dish or even sleep in it overnight. The enclosure itself gets sorayed down 2-3 times a week. Its not wet in there, just very humid. Their shell drie out in about an hour after misting or when they emerge from their hide in the morning. Unlike what I read at most places, they seem to like it very warm, always basking anywhere its warm and hanging around the basking spot or over the heat cable. For lighting I use T5 , there is a 60w basking bulb and 80W heat cable in half enclosure under substrate. Ambient Day time temps are 85-95F, 80F in their hide. Night time 75F. I also managed to create a natural night time dew/condensation effect in their hide. Every morning they emerge from their hide with their carapace and skin moist. This dries off in about an hour. They also spend few hours outside couple times a week. Is all this too much humidity/moisture for them and this the reason for swelling of new growth "reversed pyramiding effect", or is this all ok?
Here is few pics of the emys emys, wet and dry, their shells and enclosure. Dry shell pics show the reversed pyramiding better.
Thank for any input. Mike

 

[IRTehDuckie]

wow i have no idea, but there are threads that Tom has posted here that have a lot of research and facts about pyramiding etc. I know my little sully was doing that a little bit, but she is completely fine now. dont know what i did differently, but her shell completely turned around.

here is the start http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-15137.html

 

[AustinASU]

Shell looks normal to me, look online for pictures adult burmese browns and you'll see there shell is fairly similar, just more rings

 

[Millerlite]

This species is different then other as they will and can revere pyramid, do you ever let him outdoors? Also what's the diet of this little guy? His shell really isn't that bad I have a mt tortoises that looks much like this and my other 4 are not. As they grow it will round out but I found natural sunlight helps and diet be varied.

As far as to much humidity it doesn't sound like it, maybe only mist once a day or once ever few days they enjoy rain but maybe a little over saturated but this only you can judge. They do like rain humidity so I don't think you can over do it

Your temps all look good. Mine also like to bask and will sit under the lamp when indoors and in the sun outdoors. Your temp. Gradient seems fine, you can even go to 70 on the cooler end if you wanted. I wouldn't worry to much once they reach 7-8-9 inches they start to fill on.

Kyle


Check out my site and channel:
Www.tortoise-spot.webs.com
Www.youtube.com/tortoisespot

 

[mikeh]

Thanks. I have read Toms threads, but this is the opposite of typical pyramiding. The new growth here comes at very top between the scutes pushing older growth downward.

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Thanks Kyle. Their diet consist of 50% weeds. Rest is squashes, raddish greens, collards, endive, other greens, oyster mushrooms, little bit of sweet potatoes, cantalope, papaya, berries, once a week they each get a nightcrawler which they literally fight over. They get outside about 3 times a week for few hours.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Yeah, reverse pyramiding.

What is going on inside is a bit different than other tortoises.

The fenestra in Manouria are more exaggerated than in other species. Adult impressa fenestra, even old individuals are not filled in.

Fenestra is the gaps in the underlying shell bone. It's what makes pancakes flexible.

The theory is that in the warm tropics calcium is a rare element, and the tortoise will grow with calcium NOT being a limiting nutrient. The shell enamel still grows.

Last time (about 15 years ago) I raised some hatchling Manouria I did not supplement calcium any more than other hatchlings, like box turtles, and sulcata. However with the hatchlings that I am now growing out, they are having the option to consume all the calcium they want. They don't seem to interested in cuttlebone. I hesitate to put alot on their greens, so I am trying the idea that they may know best and I offer two plates of food each day, one with the label recommenced amount of calcium supplementation and another with much much more. Bits of chicken egg shell (boiled to clean) and they chow that all down, in preference to the recommended amount of calcium supplementation salads.

The weird thing with some Manouria is a uneven beak. Solve that and we got something going on.

In short "reverse pyramiding" is not in itself a problem, it will fill in.

Will

 

[gieseygirly]

My baby leopard tortoise's shell is growing in a very similar way.

 

[mikeh]

Thanks for the insight Will. In the past I have tried very finely cooked egg shells, crushed almost into powder but noticed that they were passed in the urine, just as they went in. Got me little concerned so I stopped. Guess I will try again.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Hi,
So urea solids are eliminated, and they do look much like ground eggs shell. But they, the urate solids, are from the kidneys/bladder, not from the intestines.

There must be a dozen or so threads here on TFO about the "white stuff in the poop" which are the result of a normal digestion in tortoises. As long as your tortoise has access to fresh water to drink and you provide a routine soak in shallow drinking water, the urate solids should not be a concern.

Either way, for Manouria, their fenestra do not fill in so quick, and that is why they do not have a non-pyramid shell in the 'sulcata' sense when a sulcata is grown in a moist environment, let alone the more typical pyramiding seen in dry condition sulcatas.

I am half way to having a snail colony I will figure is clean, and will feed them snails soon. Snail culture people (Heliciculture) suggest that snails too are given a calcium rich diet.

Wild Manouria live in deep rich forest litter filled with small insect and worms. The hatchlings I am growing now seem quite aggressive about eating small insects. Right now I am putting small bits of fruit outside, when it wiggles with fruit fly larvae I give it to the tortoises and they eat it with great enthusiasm. I sprinkle commercial calcium of the worm/fruit offering.

Will

 

[mikeh]

That's what I thought at first about it being urate solids but after some reading I read manouria does not pass urates like other torts. Maybe this info was incorrect? On the topic of urine, I noticed their urine has very strong odor compared to others torts. Do you notice same?

What do you mean by once you find your snails "clean"? I tried feeding one of them a snail, the tort went right for it, broke the shell and ate it even though it was larger then torts head, but I noticed the sticky slime from the snail was sticking to inside torts mouth irritating him quite badly. So that was that. My box turtle on the other hand doesn't have this problem at all with same type of garden snail.

But yes, they go crazy for earthworms,their whole slow and calm demeanor changes instantly once they see it. They come running and actually hiss at each other fighting over it. I feed it to them separated now, they seem to try bite each others face for it. Other foods they share in peace.

You obviously know great amount about the species, hope you don't mind me asking, can you clue me in on what are these white/silverfish lines in between the new growth of scutes. It becomes white after their shell dries from moisture.
Thanks, Mike

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[Kapidolo Farms]

Maybe you could pass along the source on the urate solids about Manouria. I am not aware of that being published or talked about.

By clean snails I mean that I collected some from a landscaped area by a bowling alley, they laid eggs. I took the eggs from the enclosure that had the wild caught adults and set them up in a new enclosure (those eggs hatched and they are growing fast, they are F1). Once they lay eggs I will do the same, and blindly consider the the F2 parasite free.

I've not interpreted the snail slime as an irritant in any chelonian that I have offered them to. I used to feed many, after several days on my food, to 'clean' them out, but a vet suggested the F2 time frame to break any direct life cycle parasite load the snails may have.

I do not know what a physiologist would call that white ashy color at the scute junction, I call it a 'growth seam". That your animals have it uniformly around the all scutes would suggest you are getting good even growth. That's a good sign. They look like they are nicely humped too, the whole shell, that too is a good sign.

I hope the ones I am growing come out as well as these are coming along.

Will

 

[emysbreeder]

The shell growth you call reversed pyramiding is normal. But you are going to kill them with that "closed chamber" They do need high humidity but it must have an air exchange. It still needs to have air flow. Change that quick! Vic

 

[Yvonne G]

I've had Manouria for more than 15 years and I've never seen urates in their yard. And, yes!!! Their urine is VERY strong-smelling.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

That's extreme, to say they are being killed in a chamber.

The "tom" closed chamber system includes a full air exchange and time outside the chamber, in fresh air and sun.

It's not a closed system in the sense of one of those glass balls with algae and tiny shrimp, or even what aquarist call "closed system".

The closed chambers mentioned so frequently here on TFO, regard maintaining high humidity, not a lack of air exchange.

The individuals shown by the primary poster look good, even the scales on the front legs are normal.

Will

 

[Millerlite]

Vic's been working with this species very long and he's always promoted fresh air exchange and recommends outdoor enclosures. Air exchange for me is a concern for turtles and tortoises it's very important for the health of a tortoise


Check out my site and channel:
Www.tortoise-spot.webs.com
Www.youtube.com/tortoisespot

 

[mikeh]

Re: RE: Too much humidity and reversed pyramiding?

The shell growth you call reversed pyramiding is normal. But you are going to kill them with that "closed chamber" They do need high humidity but it must have an air exchange. It still needs to have air flow. Change that quick! Vic

Thank for the input Vic! There are plenty of gaps between the plexi for fresh air, there is also small computer fan along the ceiling circulating the air inside.
The scales in the front feet are a concern from what I read, but so far they are all pointing nicely flat down even though they seem on the long side.

 

[Yvonne G]

I don't mean to take this thread off topic any further than it has already gone, but I must say, I appreciate that the air exchange/closed chamber question has come up so it can be explained (as Will has done in his last post). To all you folks who are using the closed chamber method...This doesn't mean a tank of stagnant air. An air exchange is accomplished every time you open the lid, to feed, to water, to take them out for any reason. The term "closed chamber" doesn't mean you have to be careful to not allow any cold, dry air into the chamber.

 

[mikeh]

Also given the chamber is located in much cooler room, the air from outside is trying to push itself in there as much as it can. But yes proper inflow of fresh air is a must. By all means I don't mind if the thread gets off topic if its helping everyone with other husbandry/growth information, especially from experts.

 

[Millerlite]

The shell growth you call reversed pyramiding is normal. But you are going to kill them with that "closed chamber" They do need high humidity but it must have an air exchange. It still needs to have air flow. Change that quick! Vic

Thank for the input Vic! There are plenty of gaps between the plexi for fresh air, there is also small computer fan along the ceiling circulating the air inside.
The scales in the front feet are a concern from what I read, but so far they are all pointing nicely flat down even though they seem on the long side.

Any way of getting him outdoors for a few hours or part time? The outdoors really seems to benefits for these guys a lot, my guys went outdoors they bask in the am and they are already growing faster then when indoors.

Kyle


Check out my site and channel:
Www.tortoise-spot.webs.com
Www.youtube.com/tortoisespot

 

[mikeh]

Yes Kyle, they get outdoors few times a week for few hours or whole day and graze on weeds, weather permitting.