Lignocel

[Kala]

Hi all. First time tortoise owner here (well almost, need to get everything set up and ready first!)

I've spent a lot of time reading through the threads and feel like I've learnt a lot, but still worried I'll get it wrong!

I saw a post about not buying a horsfield/russian tortoise from a breeder that uses dry substrate. The only breeder close to me uses lignocel for all their 'dry' tortoises, which I understand is virtually dust free. Is this ok?

 

[Ink]

@zolasmum should be able to help you. Welcome to the forum.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

The trouble is not the dust, but overall dry conditions leading to dehydration and more or less severe consequences (from pyramiding to kidney damage). You may ask the breeder to provide more details on humidity levels in the enclosure, soaking routine, diet and basics of care for the acquired hatchling. This will help to assess the risks of buying from him.

Lignocell is a wood based substrate, claimed to be resistant to mould. Maybe it can be kept moistened like orchid bark to maintain humidity.

 

[Tom]

Hi all. First time tortoise owner here (well almost, need to get everything set up and ready first!)

I've spent a lot of time reading through the threads and feel like I've learnt a lot, but still worried I'll get it wrong!

I saw a post about not buying a horsfield/russian tortoise from a breeder that uses dry substrate. The only breeder close to me uses lignocel for all their 'dry' tortoises, which I understand is virtually dust free. Is this ok?

I've never heard of that one, so I looked it up. It looks like its dry wood chips. That is not suitable. Any baby of any species of tortoise needs to be on damp substrate. This is what we are talking about when we tell you that almost everyone in the world is using the old wrong info. Breeders, vets, "experts", pet shops, YT, FB, reddit, etc... All of them are universally repeating the same old wrong info. They all learn it from the same old wrong sources that people like me learned from back in the old days before the internet. I used to use and repeat that old wrong info too until I realized it was wrong and began a decades long quest of exploration, experimentation and study to determine why it was wrong and didn't work, what was actually the right info, and why. We've come a long way, but I am still on that journey.

You will likely find it impossible to locate a breeder in your country doing it right. What you will have to do is find the one who is doing it the least wrong and causing the least amount of damage to a new hatching, and then make the best of it. No hatchling benefits from dry conditions. Even species that truly come from "desert" areas, seek out and find humidity in the wild in the root balls of plants, deep in the leaf litter, or by digging down into the damp earth, or using humid burrows. Dry substrate, hot lamps, low humidity, and lack of soaking is literally deadly to hatchlings. It usually doesn't kill them right off the bat. The dryness and chronic dehydration kills their kidneys, but they live and eat and walk around seemingly normally for weeks or months before finally dying from it. At that point the breeder will proclaim that the baby was perfectly healthy while they had it and that you, the new keeper, obviously did something wrong. They are ignorant and they don't realize what is happening. To make it worse, weeks or months after purchase when the baby begins to decline, people go to a vet, spend hundreds or thousands fo dollars, and the vet will misdiagnose the problem as calcium deficiency, or vitamin deficiency, or sometimes they decide to diagnose by treatment and inject antibiotics. All of these things speed the demise of the already dying compromised title baby tortoise.

I did a thread explain this phenomena years ago, but I can't find it now since our forum search function doesn't seem to be working yet. It was titled "Hatchling Failure Syndrome". I'll find it and link it for you when the search feature comes back on line.

 

[Tim Carlisle]

I've never heard of that one, so I looked it up. It looks like its dry wood chips. That is not suitable. Any baby of any species of tortoise needs to be on damp substrate. This is what we are talking about when we tell you that almost everyone in the world is using the old wrong info. Breeders, vets, "experts", pet shops, YT, FB, reddit, etc... All of them are universally repeating the same old wrong info. They all learn it from the same old wrong sources that people like me learned from back in the old days before the internet. I used to use and repeat that old wrong info too until I realized it was wrong and began a decades long quest of exploration, experimentation and study to determine why it was wrong and didn't work, what was actually the right info, and why. We've come a long way, but I am still on that journey.

You will likely find it impossible to locate a breeder in your country doing it right. What you will have to do is find the one who is doing it the least wrong and causing the least amount of damage to a new hatching, and then make the best of it. No hatchling benefits from dry conditions. Even species that truly come from "desert" areas, seek out and find humidity in the wild in the root balls of plants, deep in the leaf litter, or by digging down into the damp earth, or using humid burrows. Dry substrate, hot lamps, low humidity, and lack of soaking is literally deadly to hatchlings. It usually doesn't kill them right off the bat. The dryness and chronic dehydration kills their kidneys, but they live and eat and walk around seemingly normally for weeks or months before finally dying from it. At that point the breeder will proclaim that the baby was perfectly healthy while they had it and that you, the new keeper, obviously did something wrong. They are ignorant and they don't realize what is happening. To make it worse, weeks or months after purchase when the baby begins to decline, people go to a vet, spend hundreds or thousands fo dollars, and the vet will misdiagnose the problem as calcium deficiency, or vitamin deficiency, or sometimes they decide to diagnose by treatment and inject antibiotics. All of these things speed the demise of the already dying compromised title baby tortoise.

I did a thread explain this phenomena years ago, but I can't find it now since our forum search function doesn't seem to be working yet. It was titled "Hatchling Failure Syndrome". I'll find it and link it for you when the search feature comes back on line.

Here you go Tom:

"Hatchling Failure Syndrome"

I've heard this term for many years and I don't like it. Its a way to excuse our ignorance and failure. I will agree that an occasional hatchling is born that is just not going to make it no matter what anybody does, but MOST of them, if they make it full term and hatch, SHOULD survive and...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[Tom]

Here you go Tom:

"Hatchling Failure Syndrome"

I've heard this term for many years and I don't like it. Its a way to excuse our ignorance and failure. I will agree that an occasional hatchling is born that is just not going to make it no matter what anybody does, but MOST of them, if they make it full term and hatch, SHOULD survive and...

tortoiseforum.org

Thank you for the assist Tim!

@Kala Tim was kind enough to link the thread I was talking about for you.

Questions are welcome!

 

[Kala]

I've never heard of that one, so I looked it up. It looks like its dry wood chips. That is not suitable. Any baby of any species of tortoise needs to be on damp substrate. This is what we are talking about when we tell you that almost everyone in the world is using the old wrong info. Breeders, vets, "experts", pet shops, YT, FB, reddit, etc... All of them are universally repeating the same old wrong info. They all learn it from the same old wrong sources that people like me learned from back in the old days before the internet. I used to use and repeat that old wrong info too until I realized it was wrong and began a decades long quest of exploration, experimentation and study to determine why it was wrong and didn't work, what was actually the right info, and why. We've come a long way, but I am still on that journey.

You will likely find it impossible to locate a breeder in your country doing it right. What you will have to do is find the one who is doing it the least wrong and causing the least amount of damage to a new hatching, and then make the best of it. No hatchling benefits from dry conditions. Even species that truly come from "desert" areas, seek out and find humidity in the wild in the root balls of plants, deep in the leaf litter, or by digging down into the damp earth, or using humid burrows. Dry substrate, hot lamps, low humidity, and lack of soaking is literally deadly to hatchlings. It usually doesn't kill them right off the bat. The dryness and chronic dehydration kills their kidneys, but they live and eat and walk around seemingly normally for weeks or months before finally dying from it. At that point the breeder will proclaim that the baby was perfectly healthy while they had it and that you, the new keeper, obviously did something wrong. They are ignorant and they don't realize what is happening. To make it worse, weeks or months after purchase when the baby begins to decline, people go to a vet, spend hundreds or thousands fo dollars, and the vet will misdiagnose the problem as calcium deficiency, or vitamin deficiency, or sometimes they decide to diagnose by treatment and inject antibiotics. All of these things speed the demise of the already dying compromised title baby tortoise.

I did a thread explain this phenomena years ago, but I can't find it now since our forum search function doesn't seem to be working yet. It was titled "Hatchling Failure Syndrome". I'll find it and link it for you when the search feature comes back on line.

That’s so sad. This particular reptile breeder is well respected and probably, as you say, believes they are doing right by the tortoises. I’ve asked them for details of their soaking routine and humidity levels in the enclosure so will wait to see what they say. My friend bought their tortoise from them in November and so far, the little one seems to be doing well. Like you say, I don’t think I’m going to find a breeder here that does things in the right way. I don’t want that to put us off getting our own (I’ve wanted one since I was a little girl), but I am worried about the heartbreak for my daughter if we’re doomed to watch them fade away a few months later through no fault of our own

 

[TammyJ]

Welcome to the forum Kala, and all the very best of luck to you and your tortoise when the time comes! You are at the right place here.

 

[Kala]

Welcome to the forum Kala, and all the very best of luck to you and your tortoise when the time comes! You are at the right place here.

Thank you, I will be asking A LOT of questions 😁 We’re very excited to welcome the new member of the family!