Plywood only as substrate - (and how to clean?)

[Yvonne G]

Ok...the mats are sold at Farm supply stores or feed stores. I pay $39.95 apiece here in Clovis.

This is looking towards the leopard shed. I had to piece out the doorway section because I didn't have a big enough piece of the mat to do the whole thing with no seams:

And now I'm inside the shed looking back at the doorway, and I've lifted up the edge so you can see the thickness of the mat. Remember, they come in 4'x6' size, and this is a piece I had left-over to fit in the doorway. It looks like substrate underneath, but its really just dirt/ground up poop that worked its way under the section. It's really plywood underneath:

 

[Tom]

Ben, You said substrate would be too expensive. Have you looked at the hardware stores? Orchid bark or cypress mulch is only a few bucks for a big 2 cubic foot bag. You'd only need a few bags to cover 70 square feet. As far as the dust, a little water from a hudson sprayer should do the trick. Spray as needed.

I use plain untreated plywood for flooring in my outdoor boxes too. I don't think sanitation or shell rot is much of a concern at all, as long as you scrape up the poop and keep it mostly dry, but I do agree that walking on nothing but plywood day after day might not be good for tortoise legs and feet. Mine sleep on it, but then walk around on dirt and natural terrain all day.

 

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

For cleaning, may I suggest vinegar. Cheap by the gallon and it is antibacterial, antiviral and antifungal. I use apple cider vinegar for internal things. White vinegar made from natural vegetable ingredients (some are from petroleum by-products, bleh). Not toxic at all. I also add a few drops of essential oils for added punch. Depending on me-mood, I add tea tree, or lavender, or lemon, or thyme ... all are anti-bacterial/fungal/viral also. Safe around our animals, too. I also have a steam cleaner and that is simply really, really hot water. Works great. Like the mat idea, too.

---

PS Forgot to say. I use 1 cup or two to a gallon of water. Also, Dr. Bronner's or Mrs. Meyer's soaps are great! Target carries them now. Most all health food stores, too.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

I get it about being beat down for a POV that does not conform to pop culture dogma.

Yeah so plywood had been used for all types of herps at one zoo I worked at. We would use newspaper in some, mulch in some, or no surface cover at all.

They were cleaned periodically outside with bleach OR ammonia, inside with vinegar and or hydrogen peroxide.

Plywood works just fine. I prefer other things at home for one reason or another, but plywood works fine.

Will

 

[ben awes]

I get it about being beat down for a POV that does not conform to pop culture dogma.

Yeah so plywood had been used for all types of herps at one zoo I worked at. We would use newspaper in some, mulch in some, or no surface cover at all.

They were cleaned periodically outside with bleach OR ammonia, inside with vinegar and or hydrogen peroxide.

Plywood works just fine. I prefer other things at home for one reason or another, but plywood works fine.

Will

Thanks Will, but what's a POV? I do like plywood, but I want to also provide good footing for the torts and if something like the horse pads work I want to consider them - or anything else for that matter - so thanks!

 

[Tom]

Point Of View.

 

[Madkins007]

My main issue with plywood, once I get past the typical 'knee-jerk' reaction others felt when they read this, is that it does not encourage naturalistic behaviors by providing a naturalistic situation- burrowing, nestling down to cool off, etc. In his book The Art of Keeping Snakes, author Phillippe de Vosjoli argues quite nicely that animals allowed to live in naturalistic, even if man-made, habitats display a wider range of natural behaviors than those that do not. However, I am also a fan of the 'if it works for you, great!' school of thought.

Having said that, diluted chlorine bleach, rinsed well or allowed to air-dry, is an effective and safe disinfecting agent for use around reptiles (just watch out for fumes and liquid contact.) Like others, I would just mostly sweep and spot clean, with an occasional scrubbing and disinfecting spray.

 

[Sulcata_Sandy]

I like the Chlorhexidine idea! That is safe to be ingested by reptiles as it becomes "inert" in the stomach and passes thru the bowel into feces, not absorbed into system.
The safe dilution for cleaning is 3oz per gallon. You can buy it at any feed store, usually under the name "Nolvesan". We sell gallon jugs of the generic version to clients for $15.

Vinegar is a good idea, but the wood might hold the odor and bother the tortoises. Might have to test that theory.

Good thread, I'm enjoying the learning in all of these posts.

 

[lisa127]

Just wanted to add, I use chlorhexidine for cleaning any reptile enclosure. Even small enclosures. I hate bleach so have always used diluted chlorhexidine.

 

[ben awes]

I like the Chlorhexidine idea! That is safe to be ingested by reptiles as it becomes "inert" in the stomach and passes thru the bowel into feces, not absorbed into system.
The safe dilution for cleaning is 3oz per gallon. You can buy it at any feed store, usually under the name "Nolvesan". We sell gallon jugs of the generic version to clients for $15.

Vinegar is a good idea, but the wood might hold the odor and bother the tortoises. Might have to test that theory.

Good thread, I'm enjoying the learning in all of these posts.

In reading about cleaners for enclosure on other threads I saw that several people use a 1:1:1 mixture of water, vinegar, rubbing alcohol. I went with that on part of my plywood enclosure last night, and while the alcohol is the strongest smell at first, it evaporates. I do wonder if the vinegar smell might linger a lot longer, especially on wood. Every time it gets wet the vinegar smell might emerge again. I am going to flush it with fresh water a couple more times to try and reduce it - but I wonder if the chlorhexidine we a better idea for that reason?

Yes, people are sharing great information - VERY helpful.

---

My main issue with plywood, once I get past the typical 'knee-jerk' reaction others felt when they read this, is that it does not encourage naturalistic behaviors by providing a naturalistic situation- burrowing, nestling down to cool off, etc. In his book The Art of Keeping Snakes, author Phillippe de Vosjoli argues quite nicely that animals allowed to live in naturalistic, even if man-made, habitats display a wider range of natural behaviors than those that do not. However, I am also a fan of the 'if it works for you, great!' school of thought.

Having said that, diluted chlorine bleach, rinsed well or allowed to air-dry, is an effective and safe disinfecting agent for use around reptiles (just watch out for fumes and liquid contact.) Like others, I would just mostly sweep and spot clean, with an occasional scrubbing and disinfecting spray.

Great point about the substrate effecting their behavior, of course that would be true. I also subscribe to the idea that if it works for you, great! The plywood only substrate is easy, that's the deal. No fuse, no mold, no rot, no fungus, no nothing. It just stains and looks dirty.

This might sound crass, or worse, but for me, if the tasks to care for the animal get to be too many, or too much of a hassle, then I will start to not do them all that well, and I know that many of us might say "then don't keep the animal!" We'll, I love my torts, and the way I have it set up, it is not too much, it's just what I can handle, and I can handle it well. I enjoy it. I don't mind scrapping poo everyday. I made my enclosure table top height and only 3-4 feet wide and "U" shaped, so that I can reach every corner without having to get IN the enclosure. It also gives the torts a lot of distance to walk, if not as much total area.

If there is a better way that does not greatly increase my effort - great. I really think Yvonne is onto something with the rubber horse pads. They would have great grip, do not harbor bacteria, easy to sweep, clean. The ONLY issue I see is trapping moisture between it and the subfloor. If the subfloor is nonporous it might make it worse - no place for the moisture to go. If the subfloor is plywood, might be better because it can absorb into the wood and not stay concentrated? It would give them a better walking surface, though would NOT encourage natural behaviors of digging, nestling in at night. Hmmmm?

 

[Baoh]

Avoid vinegar. It will, over the longer term, encourage fungal growth via the acidity.

 

[ben awes]

Avoid vinegar. It will, over the longer term, encourage fungal growth via the acidity.

OK, thanks. Now, further confusion! Some swear by vinegar, what's the truth!

 

[Yvonne G]

Maybe I have my head in the sand, but why worry? I use a dust pan and rake and pick up the poops, then I use a broom to sweep out the floor. Occasionally I hose it all out to dilute the pee smell. I've been keeping tortoises for over 20 years and they all seem healthy. No one cleans out their burrows in the wild. Granted, the stuff biodegrades in the dirt, and probably not so much on the plywood. But I don't understand why the worry?

 

[ben awes]

Maybe I have my head in the sand, but why worry? I use a dust pan and rake and pick up the poops, then I use a broom to sweep out the floor. Occasionally I hose it all out to dilute the pee smell. I've been keeping tortoises for over 20 years and they all seem healthy. No one cleans out their burrows in the wild. Granted, the stuff biodegrades in the dirt, and probably not so much on the plywood. But I don't understand why the worry?

Great point Yvonne, but I think you hit on it for me - in the wild everything has a way of naturally cleaning itself. Indoors, little to none of the natural bioregulation (made up word) happens and so just wanted to see what folks thought. I tend not to worry unless I see a problem.

The main reason I am thinking about this is that I am considering in the next few years of redoing my entire indoor set-up and since I this is in a basement and the choice of substrate and it's maintenance is the first big question. I like plywood, and I think I like even more your pads on top.

However, if my whole room (19'x 18') becomes the enclosure I want to think far in advance about how to do it. Right now the floor is concrete, concrete walls, and there is a drain in the floor. I could just use your pads directly on top and then hose the darn thing out on occasion. The main question is if I need a "subfloor" between the horse pads and the concrete floor?

Ben

 

[yagyujubei]

In my basement room, I put 2" blue foam on the concrete under the substrate. This will really warm up the floor, and cuts the chill, compared to just the concrete. If you went concrete, foam, plywood, and then rubber, Seems like this would be your best bet. Good thread, I'm rethinking how this winter will go. Only a few more weeks outside. It's in the 40's at night a lot now.

Maybe I have my head in the sand, but why worry? I use a dust pan and rake and pick up the poops, then I use a broom to sweep out the floor. Occasionally I hose it all out to dilute the pee smell. I've been keeping tortoises for over 20 years and they all seem healthy. No one cleans out their burrows in the wild. Granted, the stuff biodegrades in the dirt, and probably not so much on the plywood. But I don't understand why the worry?

Great point Yvonne, but I think you hit on it for me - in the wild everything has a way of naturally cleaning itself. Indoors, little to none of the natural bioregulation (made up word) happens and so just wanted to see what folks thought. I tend not to worry unless I see a problem.

The main reason I am thinking about this is that I am considering in the next few years of redoing my entire indoor set-up and since I this is in a basement and the choice of substrate and it's maintenance is the first big question. I like plywood, and I think I like even more your pads on top.

However, if my whole room (19'x 18') becomes the enclosure I want to think far in advance about how to do it. Right now the floor is concrete, concrete walls, and there is a drain in the floor. I could just use your pads directly on top and then hose the darn thing out on occasion. The main question is if I need a "subfloor" between the horse pads and the concrete floor?

Ben

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

The reason to use alternate cleaners is so that you don't select for any type of microbe over time. So that is why the Bleach OR ammonia outside and the Vinegar AND/OR hydrogen peroxide inside. That also tends to eliminate a buildup, as one cleaner will 'clean' residue of the last cleaner used.

Some cleaners could be applied in abundance then removed with a wet/dry vacum as well to facilitate removal of the cleaner and any remaining particles of stuff. Bleach, ammonia, vinegar, hydrogen peroxide, are safe to vacum, I don't know about the volatility of alcohol.

Even allegedly inert plastic will absorb cleaners, not to mention something as porous as plywood, so staying with those that can evaporate and alternating you are avoiding many pitfalls to long term use in a single enclosure. The iodine based cleaners are not so good, they build up in inert plastic, complex molecule cleaners do to.

I really like your description of a U shaped enclosure, this encourages a great deal of walking about, as the whole of the animal's world is not visible from everywhere within the enclosure. Tortoises do have curiosity, to see what's around the corner. Maybe you did that for the purpose of large area easy to access, but it provides another great purpose for good enclosure design from the tortoise perspective too.

Will

 

[SpdTrtl]

The mats are 4'x6' and are too heavy for me to lift. I have to roll them up and tie the roll, then manhandle them to where I want them. They are an inch thick and very heavy-duty rubber. I have cut them before using a skil saw, and they are so dense that it bogs down the saw and makes it smoke.

I'll go outside and get a picture a bit later in the day. I'm still on my first cup of coffee.

You are just full of great ideas! Putting this one in my pocket for a later time.

 

[ben awes]

In my basement room, I put 2" blue foam on the concrete under the substrate. This will really warm up the floor, and cuts the chill, compared to just the concrete. If you went concrete, foam, plywood, and then rubber, Seems like this would be your best bet. Good thread, I'm rethinking how this winter will go. Only a few more weeks outside. It's in the 40's at night a lot now.

Maybe I have my head in the sand, but why worry? I use a dust pan and rake and pick up the poops, then I use a broom to sweep out the floor. Occasionally I hose it all out to dilute the pee smell. I've been keeping tortoises for over 20 years and they all seem healthy. No one cleans out their burrows in the wild. Granted, the stuff biodegrades in the dirt, and probably not so much on the plywood. But I don't understand why the worry?

Great point Yvonne, but I think you hit on it for me - in the wild everything has a way of naturally cleaning itself. Indoors, little to none of the natural bioregulation (made up word) happens and so just wanted to see what folks thought. I tend not to worry unless I see a problem.

The main reason I am thinking about this is that I am considering in the next few years of redoing my entire indoor set-up and since I this is in a basement and the choice of substrate and it's maintenance is the first big question. I like plywood, and I think I like even more your pads on top.

However, if my whole room (19'x 18') becomes the enclosure I want to think far in advance about how to do it. Right now the floor is concrete, concrete walls, and there is a drain in the floor. I could just use your pads directly on top and then hose the darn thing out on occasion. The main question is if I need a "subfloor" between the horse pads and the concrete floor?

Ben

That does seem like a good combo, but by adding the foam, then plywood, you add a tremendous amount of surface where moisture can get trapped - couldn't that be a problem? Would you want a waterproof layer in there? concrete, 2" foam, plywood, then a membrane, then horse pads? Certainly don't want to chill them so I get the foam, just want to be able to hose the thing out without dismantling the whole shabang!

---

The reason to use alternate cleaners is so that you don't select for any type of microbe over time. So that is why the Bleach OR ammonia outside and the Vinegar AND/OR hydrogen peroxide inside. That also tends to eliminate a buildup, as one cleaner will 'clean' residue of the last cleaner used.

Some cleaners could be applied in abundance then removed with a wet/dry vacum as well to facilitate removal of the cleaner and any remaining particles of stuff. Bleach, ammonia, vinegar, hydrogen peroxide, are safe to vacum, I don't know about the volatility of alcohol.

Even allegedly inert plastic will absorb cleaners, not to mention something as porous as plywood, so staying with those that can evaporate and alternating you are avoiding many pitfalls to long term use in a single enclosure. The iodine based cleaners are not so good, they build up in inert plastic, complex molecule cleaners do to.

I really like your description of a U shaped enclosure, this encourages a great deal of walking about, as the whole of the animal's world is not visible from everywhere within the enclosure. Tortoises do have curiosity, to see what's around the corner. Maybe you did that for the purpose of large area easy to access, but it provides another great purpose for good enclosure design from the tortoise perspective too.

Will

Will, I like the alternating cleaner idea. I do not clean the plywood very often at all because I have never had a problem, but it makes sense to switch it up.

regarding the shape of the enclosure, I was thinking about what they would be thinking. Creating a "U" shape for interest is intentional as well as convenient for me! Even if I convert the entire room in the future, I would place some short walls in the middle to increase perimeter and to provide areas to explore. Also would allow me to "pen them in" to one area if i am cleaning or doing something in another, or to keep different species apart, or to keep apart big from little, male from female.

Ben

 

[WillTort2]

I think one of the key questions is what temperature the basement floor maintains. For someone in Detroit some type of insulation is necessary; however if your in the deep south the the floor temperature will be more favorable for the torts comfort and health.

If money is no object, one could install a floor heating element to offset the cooler ground temperatures. I would think bringing the floor temperature up to 65 or 70 would be sufficient and allow the torts to still get their primary heat from above via lights or a CHE. The type of tort will be a large factor as to what temperature are proper for the floor and above.

 

[Baoh]

Avoid vinegar. It will, over the longer term, encourage fungal growth via the acidity.

OK, thanks. Now, further confusion! Some swear by vinegar, what's the truth!

If you want grow fungi on general principles, damp, cool, and acidic are great ways to achieve it. Add some nice organic matter and, "Baby, you got a stew going."