Is there really an answer/solution to this problem?

[OurZoo]

This article was in today's (09/06/2010) San Gabriel Valley Tribune newspaper:
Abandoned turtles taking over LA County waterways . . .
http://www.sgvtribune.com

So I have 2 questions . . .
Is there a solution - can this obviously long-time issue be corrected?
And more philosophically - if by virture of not being part the the solution, am I then part of the problem?

I don't own any RES (never have) but somehow feel responsible for their welfare.

Sandy

 

[Yvonne G]

http://www.sgvtribune.com/ci_15992956?IADID=Search-www.sgvtribune.com-www.sgvtribune.com[hr]
education, enforcement, strict fines. I'd hate to see them banned, however they are banned in Oregon and it hasn't harmed the pet trade any.

 

[Madkins007]

I know it is an unpopular stance, but I would out and out ban these guys. They are very good at surviving and can be found in most populated places around the world chasing out native species.

There are other, better, pet turtle choices that are not as big or invasive. There is just no really good reason for 'civilians' to own Sliders- other than they are easy to catch in huge numbers and can be sold cheap. They are cute, so people do not ask about or worry about 'proper cares' or the downsides.

I know this is unpopular as well, but I think there should be more effort at eradicating non-native, invasive species- bounties, trapping efforts, etc. (and I apologize, but I do not mean 'adopting them out'.)

We will never eradicate all of them- Tree of Heaven, kudzu, Red-ear Sliders, snakeheads, etc.- but these things are really messing up native habitats.

 

[dmmj]

I live in calif, I own 12 RES and I am a responsible owner, why should I be punished for others crimes? I would like to see more enforcement of animal abandonment but it is hard to catch them if they dump at night, or on the weekend or whenever no one is around, but banning is the worst way to handle it, when you outlaw RES only outlaws will have RES.

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and the way to combat this is enforcement and education, will it stop 100% of the problem? no but it would certainly help, 100% total ban don't work.

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Linda is my chapter's adoption chairperson, and she does a fantastic job, she is not a hoarder chairperson, when she gets some for adoptions she adopts them out.

 

[dolfanjack]

I like the idea of bountys but doubt states can afford it. A better solution would be for someone to come up with some really good recipes for them. Maybe something like turtle helper. Recipes for cats might be good too. Kidding but only slightly.

 

[Madkins007]

I live in calif, I own 12 RES and I am a responsible owner, why should I be punished for others crimes? I would like to see more enforcement of animal abandonment but it is hard to catch them if they dump at night, or on the weekend or whenever no one is around, but banning is the worst way to handle it, when you outlaw RES only outlaws will have RES.

Ah, California! You guys are so full of invasive species, I am a bit amazed the state allows ANY even vaguely exotic pet!

Please understand that this next bit is just meant as a discussion. I don't know you and am not trying to pick on you, OK?

You say you are a responsible owner, yet you have a herd of a species that is not native, will thrive if released, and will chase out native species. How invasive does a species have to be before it is no longer a 'responsible' thing to own it?

Lets say there was a species of bird that was legal to own, would thrive if released, and would kill off the condor in the wild if enough got out. Would that be tolerated? Would it be responsible?

Invasive species are a huge and real problem in the US. We will never solve it, but if we do nothing, we will loose a lot more than we already have. Just because we love turtles here does not change that reality.

 

[dmmj]

Well I don't release mine they are in a self contained pond that they can't escape out of, your analogy with birds is not really working with me, birds fly RES don't, and I enjoy discussion. I know there are a lot of irresponsible people out there but punishing the responsible with the non responsible just does not seem fair or right o me.

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and FYI in California there is always a push to get most if not all species of animals banned here, for example ferrets, alligator snappers. I definitely don't agree with your position on this. You have RF's what if your state decided to try and ban them for specious reasons? would you be ok with it or be upset like I am ?

 

[Candy]

This is what Linda was talking about at the CTTC meeting that I went to last month. Poor thing she had to deal with all of these little creatures. I myself would have been overwhelmed with all of them. Yesterday we went to my sister in laws house and what did my boys see when they walked through the door, but 2 little RES in a tank. My one son said look mom their egg sack is still there. Come to find out they got them for 4 dollars down in China Town. That's exactly what Linda was talking about at the meeting. I think our laws on animals have to change and for people to be fined big amounts of money before anything will be done about it. It's sad all the way around.

Hey Mark I just noticed your signature at the bottom of your page. You have your own website now huh? I checked it out and it's very nice.

 

[dmmj]

I have never said that there was not a problem, and if you asked me if they charged those guys who the 10K RES were confiscated from, with 10K counts of illegally selling them then maybe they might make a difference, but they don't fine the guy selling them maybe a few hundred charges against the store owner and individuals selling them would make a difference, but If I can sell RES all day long make my money and then not get charged with anything when caught, just seems wrong to me. And If I sound angry sorry but I tend to get angry when my state thinks of banning my pets granted they have not said anything about it yet, but misinformation can quickly lead to animals being banned. Like I said education and enforcement is the key.

 

[Scooter]

I'm in Florida and RES a big problem down here. They have been banned here. If you owned them before this went into place you could keep them but you can't release, rehome, sell, breed or give them away. You have to keep them or find a fish and wildlife rescue that can take them and most are too full to take them. This being said all most everyday on craigslist there are people selling their RES, a lot of them hatchlings. Some people are still breeding them and I am sure others bring them in from GA. Banning does not work because people (in general) don't take the time to look up the laws to see if its ok. It is very sad when at least 80% (a low estimate) of the wild turtle I see are RES and not native species.

 

[terryo]

Believe me....there is NO solution. I live in NY. They sell RES hatchlings all over the city, especially in China Town. Cross over on the Ferry to SI and right by the ferry you can usually see them being sold. It's all over the net. You can get baby RES anywhere, and cheap too. When they get big people dump them. Plain and simple. Our ponds are overloaded with RES here. We used to have Spotted Turtles, and Eastern Painted's, and years ago that's all you ever saw in the ponds, but now there are practically no Spotted's and although still some Painted's, but there are LOADS of RES. No matter what the law says....it doesn't matter...people still dump them all the time. There are still plenty of DBT in the brackish waters here, though not as many as there used to be.
They can ban anything they want to, but people still have whatever they want. No one knows....and no one cares. You are not allowed to collect boxies in NY, but the kids do every day here and no one stops them...(except me if I see them....) They take them to the pet store, sell them, and there are "back rooms" where you can buy anything. Iguana's are not allowed here either, but I got one for my grandson for $20...There is nothing you can't get, and nothing you can't dump, in your local pond. I don't believe there is any solution at all. Drugs are illegal too, but you can get any kind of drug you want whenever you want. The system just doesn't work. I just get so upset when I talk about this......

 

[Scooter]

Terry, I completely agree with you!

Mark, great website!

 

[dolfanjack]

When I got my son a map turtle (from the bad place) we got a free res hatchling. I had no idea my state (Oregon) outlawed them. So if i can get one online through the mail how is anyone going to stop this practise?

 

[chadk]

Here's the deal... To the average person, including those who make the laws... This just isn't a bid deal. Saving jobs and the economy is. If an invasive species is no threat to humans (or our pets or our businesses \ pocket books), then I'm afraid we may just have to accept that nothing will be done. And realize, as noted above by others, that even if we TRY to solve the problem, chances are slim that our best efforts will even make a dent in the problem.

Perhaps we should just view this as part of 'evolution' - survival of the fittest going on in your own neighborhood pond. I mean, chances are, your average neighbor does'nt even know which species is native and which is invasive... Why should they care? (being devil's advocate for the sake of discussion...)

 

[Madkins007]

Well I don't release mine they are in a self contained pond that they can't escape out of, your analogy with birds is not really working with me, birds fly RES don't, and I enjoy discussion. I know there are a lot of irresponsible people out there but punishing the responsible with the non responsible just does not seem fair or right o me.

---

and FYI in California there is always a push to get most if not all species of animals banned here, for example ferrets, alligator snappers. I definitely don't agree with your position on this. You have RF's what if your state decided to try and ban them for specious reasons? would you be ok with it or be upset like I am ?

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Like I said- I am not trying to pick on you- just discussing ideas.

RES can escape just as easily as a bird could- even from a responsible keeper, and escaped RES are indeed endangering your only native turtle. I do not think this is a 'specious reason- it is actually happening every day in your state.

My RFs are a different story- they could never colonize here, could not threaten local torts (we don't have any- not even boxies near Omaha), so they would not be banned for that reason.

However, if my state or city took a 'no exotics' policy and did not offer a grandfather clause, I would debate it, but in the end, if I lost, I would have to rehome them. Owning pets is a privilege and a responsibility- not a right as far as I can find.

This has been the reality here for wolf-hybrid owners, big snake owners, some ' risky' dog species, and other pets. They got made as well, and made the same 'we are responsible' arguments, and lost. Some are still keeping them and trying to fly under the radar. I understand that position but do not agree with it.

I gotta ask- do you believe that an individual's choice to own an invasive species so important that they should be able to put native animals at risk to do it?


Education and enforcement is important- but if it has not won the war on drugs, how would it ever work on an issue that is even harder for the average American to understand or that gets so much less funding?

 

[terryo]

The system just doesn't work Mark. You could ban RES, Redfoots...whatever. People will still own them, release them, loose them...etc. You need a license to own a dog here...hardly anyone gets them. You're only allowed 4 dogs...I have a friend who has 14..You need a license to own a Sulcata here...I know people who have them, and have no permit either. I don't think there is a law that was ever made, that people haven broken.
I went to visit a friend last Summer, and we were sitting outside on her patio, and across the street is the back entrance to a large popular pond. On the other side of the pond, they have every activity..bike riding, hiking, baseball, swimming, fishing. As we sat there a car pulled up and a woman and two kids got out of the car, and went up to the water's edge with a bucket. We couldn't see what they were doing, but I'm sure they came to dump something in the pond. I'd bet on it. Who was there to stop them...no one. There never is.
Why should a person like David, for instance, a responsible keeper have to give up his pets, for no reason. Nothing's going to change.
Every year I renew my permit to own and collect box turtles. If there came a day when I couldn't get my permits, do you think I would give up my boxies...that's a joke.

 

[Tom]

Mark, your talk is the kind of insidious crap that is bringing this once great country to its knees. You think its a government granted privilege to own a pet turtle? What?!! Are you crazy? Ever heard of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. If its not in the constitution, there isn't supposed to be a law against it. There is nothing in the constitution about pet turtles. This government is supposed to be of the people, by the people and for the people. The people want turtles. Its that simple. If you think there is a terrible RES invasion problem, then feel free to go out and eradicate them with all your spare time. Start an eradication awareness program. Start a turtle soup club. But leave MY personal property alone!!! When MY RES gets out into the local pond, then you can talk to me about responsible pet ownership and banning me from having that species.

If the government spent half the time and resources on fixing the problem (removing nuisance animals) instead of instituting more draconian laws, harassing innocent citezens and investigating small timers in Chinatown, there wouldn't be a problem to discuss.

Let me just be clear. The government does NOT know what's best for us. The government does NOT have our best interest in mind and the government is so crippled and corrupt that it can't fix anything anymore. Ever been to the DMV?

 

[Kristina]

Mark, your talk is the kind of insidious crap that is bringing this once great country to its knees. You think its a government granted privilege to own a pet turtle? What?!! Are you crazy? Ever heard of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. If its not in the constitution, there isn't supposed to be a law against it. There is nothing in the constitution about pet turtles. This government is supposed to be of the people, by the people and for the people. The people want turtles. Its that simple. If you think there is a terrible RES invasion problem, then feel free to go out and eradicate them with all your spare time. Start an eradication awareness program. Start a turtle soup club. But leave MY personal property alone!!! When MY RES gets out into the local pond, then you can talk to me about responsible pet ownership and banning me from having that species.

If the government spent half the time and resources on fixing the problem (removing nuisance animals) instead of instituting more draconian laws, harassing innocent citezens and investigating small timers in Chinatown, there wouldn't be a problem to discuss.

Let me just be clear. The government does NOT know what's best for us. The government does NOT have our best interest in mind and the government is so crippled and corrupt that it can't fix anything anymore. Ever been to the DMV?

Tom hit the nail on the head, if you ask me. I agree 100%.

 

[terryo]

Let me just be clear. The government does NOT know what's best for us. The government does NOT have our best interest in mind and the government is so crippled and corrupt that it can't fix anything anymore. Ever been to the DMV?


I agree with Tom's statement....absoultely 100%.

 

[Jacqui]

Honestly, I don't think there is or unfortunately ever will be, any easy solution.

Bans don't work and in some ways make the situation worse. The common person who has a RES, but lives illegally under such a ban will not seek out medical attention and when it comes to getting rid of the animal, what are they gonna do? They will more then likely dump it, so they won't get in trouble for having had the animal in the first place. Bans tend to make the object of the ban more appealing to many. Bans tend to only hurt those who would not have been part of the problem any how.

Education is a start, but just that. Look at how much time and money have gone into educating teenagers against drinking and driving. Has that worked? Education money for this fairly low priority issue will be very slim to none.

Somebody asked if they aren't part of the solution, are they part of the problem. I think so. I think if you just sit back, your going to be loosing your right to own RES and then they may also just do blanket bans on all turtles and tortoises, so it's not just the RES owners/lovers who need to be worried. We all need to be worried and now, not waiting until those laws are passed.