is Sanding the tortoise Scutes ok?

[Madkins007]

(snip)

You are right, thanks!

I meant sanding, was really just minor rubbing a little with fine sand paper daily to similate the abrasion.

I haven't done it yet, just asking if this could be the wrong idea.

You are very right, it's better to provide rough/coarse hides for my tortoises to rub itself instead.

The research paper was from Turtletrust, the idea of sandpaper rubbing was from other non-English paper.

I would still be interested in the sources for both ideas- like I said, that sort of thing fascinates me.

As for a daily rubbing... IF I were going to do something like that- just as a thought experiment- I would probably use cheap white toothpaste. It uses a fine grade silica sand to make the abrasive, and works great for a lot of polishing jobs. Get the shell good and wet, smear some paste on and use my whole hand to rub the shell for a few minutes, spreading the pressure out. You probably would not notice anything for several sessions if you do it right, and it would not change pyramiding.

In fact, if the tortoise has ANY pyramiding- even if the species is supposed to pyramid, I would not do this since it would be too easy, even with this mild abrasive, to take off too much from the peaks.

 

[ascott]

LOL...I think a gentle no from me is appropriate.....LOL

 

[JoeB]

No. It would be like sanding the flat part of your fingernail. You would make it thin and cause it to be more tender and maybe even painful.

Thanks, but some research paper said it's OK and had better to sand it a little. because tortoises in captivity don't get rubbed, scratched or crushed as in the wild. Also, they said the scutes will get thicker and harder, and cause pyramids (due to too much stress to the bone by scutes)

Wild tortoises do get a lot of abrasion on their shells. Their most common chosen hides are tight places with sand, roots, trunks, etc. rubbing the shell, which contributes to the 'polished' look we often see in adult wild caught tortoises.

Simulating this in captivity by providing things like coarse bark hides is a great idea, but to sand the very thin and rather delicate scute material would be a trickier thing to do.

If you over-sanded, even a little, on the paper-thin scute you can easily wear right through the dead material and hit the growth layers. Damaging the growth layer interferes with the ability to add new scute material properly. Of course, you can also abrade off the growth layers and actually hit bone, which would expose the tortoise to all kinds of infections and problems.

I hope you can appreciate the difference between a very minor 'rubbing' every day caused by natural interaction and a more aggressive 'sanding' by someone with tools and no real way to know how much to take off.

There is also no solid, proven, agreed-upon theory for the causes and prevention of pyramiding, but keepers with smooth-shelled torts accomplished this by proper cares, diet, hydration, and environmental management- not by sanding the shell of the tortoise.

I would appreciate knowing what this paper was. Based on your comments, it seems to be sharing opinions and theories more than controlled research, but it is always interesting to see other ideas.

Great answer very well written. I too would be interested in "research" paper and is credentials. Rustyiron could you please post a link to this paper?

 

[wildponey21]

ok i work as avet tech. do not sand the shell. if you relly think it has to be done go to a reptile vet. also there shell is like our skin if you sand it you cause him to geta infcation. it hurts and also if you do it and have to take him to the vet because he is sick the vet can report you to the spca and jail would not be fun and you will lose your pets.

 

[Rustyiron]

Original paper from Turtle Trust,
http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/pyramiding.html

"A further important factor is that wild terrestrial tortoises are continually wearing and abrading excess keratin from the scutes in the course of normal life. Unlike turtles, they do not shed old keratin - they wear it away. They are abraded by coarse vegetation, by impact with rocks, by wind-born sand particles, and by the constant burying, digging and excavating they engage in. While estivating or hibernating they are not motionless. They move, surrounded by highly abrasive particles in the soil. Also, micro-organisms in the soil gradually degrade the outer surface of the scutes. As such, they are subject to continual wearing (and resulting thinning) of the scutes. In the vast majority of captive situations (and especially so in indoor maintenance) this factor is totally overlooked by keepers. One result is that the keratin continues to accumulate even if humidity is not an issue. Where very low humidity is also present, the effect is compounded.

The thicker (and dryer) the keratin, the worse the “pyramiding” becomes. This is not only a consequence of the keratin layer itself, but also of its powerful physical deforming effect on the skeleton immediately beneath."

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I am no liar, pls don't imply that, I tried to stay away from heated debate and pacifists or tree-huggers or tortoise-huggers. I kept low profile after this thread got heated by tortoise-huggers. I tried not to disrespect to the lovely admins. But you guys kept bring the matter up.

OK, the first original paper is above, and second one I can't find it anymore, but it was a paper written by my countrymen extended and agreed from Turtle Turtle's paper, and suggested to rub with fine sanding papers daily to emulate the natural abrasion in the wild.

Many people kept thinking sanding or rubbing will damage the scute, cause bleeding, or even hurting the tortoises, you guys are very naive, thinking it's like child or animal abusing. Do you even know the tortoise's shell(scute) is made of both Keratin and Beta-Keratin? Beta-Keratin is the substance which is very very hard. Keratin has no nuclei, has no blood, and has no nerves at all!!! Tortoises can feel the vibration thru scutes, but they can't feel the pain and everything!

Have you seen operation of a tortoise? it took our vets in our country 1-2 hours just to cut thru the scutes with powertool!!! most vets in our country use powertool to make smooth shell edges, not with sanding paper, but with powertools, because tortoise scute are the hardest material in animal kingdom like rhino horns!

don't be naive to think sanding or rubbing will damage thru the scute....

also, if the tortoise detected that the scute is thinning, it will release more keratin underneath to thickening the shell scute again!!

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I will rub my aldabra with fine sand paper daily, and many people are actually do it with many different tools, what r u gonna do about't? call the cops or sue me...

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I'm no troll or trouble maker, but I'm so sick and tired of this forum, every post or every reply, people kept saying, "please introduce yourself first", "no post until you introduce yourself", "can you post a picture of what you said", "can you give us the link?", "can you show us any photo?", can you this and can you that. God, I had never been to any forum like that in my entire life!!!

Also, all the answers seem like one sided, different opinions or experimenting ideas are immediately attacked or rejected or refuted, what do you guys want the world to be? Borgs? one minded freaks, no good for improvement.....tortoise raising is still very new and young, human still don't understand many thing happening to tortoise in captitive.

 

[Talka]

I asked for sources because I'm a scientist. "Some paper" doesn't fly in my line of work. It's how I'm wired to think. Show proof or say nothing at all, I always say.

We just don't wanna hurt our babies.

 

[dmarcus]

No one is attacking you, but we just don't see a point in taking sandpaper to your tortoise because of a little pyramiding.

Its your tortoise and you can do what ever your hearts desires to it, but when you ask a question you have to know that you will get a lot of answers and some of those answer you may not like.

So rub away just don't get mad that others choose not to agree with what you are doing...

 

[Sammy]

Please don't take it the wrong way, they are not implying ur a liar. Ppl just want to know/learn more, that's why they are asking for links, books, photos. I too was very interested in this thread, wish to learn more and you sharing information is very good. Using sand paper on the shell sounds quite harsh, it's like using it on our nails. That's why ppl reacted, they just don't want any damages to the tortoise.

 

[dmmj]

Lets keep the discussion civil, thanks.

 

[Rustyiron]

I asked for sources because I'm a scientist. "Some paper" doesn't fly in my line of work. It's how I'm wired to think. Show proof or say nothing at all, I always say.

We just don't wanna hurt our babies.

So you are a scientist? any proof? any credentials? My father is Harvard Post Doctoral Fellow and professor, my uncle is Melborne University professor, they are all scientists, my father has 15 credentials and Harvard badge cards with photos. Why don't you post us a photo? or a scan of your credentials?

How does sanding the tortoises hurt the tortoises? You got any "papers", any proof or experiments with photos showing that? Any proof that tortoise scute are as weak as human nails? any papers? Have you done any operation on tortoises or turtles?

Show proof or say nothing at all!!!

 

[Baoh]

"Keratin has no nuclei, has no blood, and has no nerves at all!!!"

Irrelevant, as keratin does not exist in a vacuum. Keratinocytes have nuclei, are nourished by blood vessels, and the tissue beds do have nerve endings. Feel free to not go by word alone. Taking a Dremel to your own nail bed might be more convincing.

"Have you seen operation of a tortoise? it took our vets in our country 1-2 hours just to cut thru the scutes with powertool!!! most vets in our country use powertool to make smooth shell edges, not with sanding paper, but with powertools, because tortoise scute are the hardest material in animal kingdom like rhino horns!"

Must be some weak power tools, as even the cheaply made ones available here can make more headway in less time than what has just been described. Maybe those vets ought to have invested in an 18V Dewalt set. I hear those tend to work rather well.

To employ personification, enamel might like to have a word regarding your claim of tortoise scutes being the hardest material in the animal kingdom.

I am still looking forward to the sanding reference if ever it manifests. I can have one of my resources translate it quickly if necessary. The only reference supplied thus far is an opinion-based review. Hopefully, the sanding reference several have requested cites actual research that has been subject to the peer review process.

 

[BrinnANDTorts]

I don't think any one here as any proof that sanding your tortoise shell will hurt it , its just there opinion because the idea of sanding a tortoise shell is harsh. I honestly have no idea whether it will hurt the tortoise or not. I just thought I would tell you that if you want a easier better, proven pain free solution to your tortoise pyramidying you should increase humidity to around 80% and do daily soaks and add a humid hide and 24/7 water source. If I knew the species and age of the tortoises you are talking about I might be able to help more with the pyramiding.
I am also very sorry that you do not like the forum
I also don't think you should make fun of people for loving their tortoises , those are our pets most people love their pets and people should love their pets.
All I can tell you is that there is a proven pain free way of correcting your tortoises pyramiding. Your method is neither proven or disproven and what risks you take with your tortoises is your business but yes the idea of hurting a tortoise is going to offend people who love tortoises. I don't think anyone should apoligize for that, our reaction could of been a little better though. People on this forum will have opinions without proof , kinda what the forum is all about . Sharing opinions . The forum isn't for everyone

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Original paper from Turtle Trust,
http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/pyramiding.html

"A further important factor is that wild terrestrial tortoises are continually wearing and abrading excess keratin from the scutes in the course of normal life. Unlike turtles, they do not shed old keratin - they wear it away. They are abraded by coarse vegetation, by impact with rocks, by wind-born sand particles, and by the constant burying, digging and excavating they engage in. While estivating or hibernating they are not motionless. They move, surrounded by highly abrasive particles in the soil. Also, micro-organisms in the soil gradually degrade the outer surface of the scutes. As such, they are subject to continual wearing (and resulting thinning) of the scutes. In the vast majority of captive situations (and especially so in indoor maintenance) this factor is totally overlooked by keepers. One result is that the keratin continues to accumulate even if humidity is not an issue. Where very low humidity is also present, the effect is compounded.

The thicker (and dryer) the keratin, the worse the “pyramiding” becomes. This is not only a consequence of the keratin layer itself, but also of its powerful physical deforming effect on the skeleton immediately beneath."

---

Your point, from that Turtle Trust article, about sanding the shell w/ very light sandpaper: the amount of abrasion a wild-living tortoise will encounter in a year is probably about the same as a few minutes of sanding by your hand-held sandpaper...negligible.

I am no liar, pls don't imply that, I tried to stay away from heated debate and pacifists or tree-huggers or tortoise-huggers. I kept low profile after this thread got heated by tortoise-huggers. I tried not to disrespect to the lovely admins. But you guys kept bring the matter up.

OK, the first original paper is above, and second one I can't find it anymore, but it was a paper written by my countrymen extended and agreed from Turtle Turtle's paper, and suggested to rub with fine sanding papers daily to emulate the natural abrasion in the wild.

We're still interested in reading your secondary source, not because we don't believe you, but simply because we'd like to see what it says.

Many people kept thinking sanding or rubbing will damage the scute, cause bleeding, or even hurting the tortoises, you guys are very naive, thinking it's like child or animal abusing. Do you even know the tortoise's shell(scute) is made of both Keratin and Beta-Keratin? Beta-Keratin is the substance which is very very hard. Keratin has no nuclei, has no blood, and has no nerves at all!!! Tortoises can feel the vibration thru scutes, but they can't feel the pain and everything!

Must respectfully disagree w/ this...there is quite a bit of evidence, easily accessed, that tortoises and turtles DO feel discomfort when their shells are scrubbed hard, so it's reasonable to assume sanding would also cause this reaction.

Have you seen operation of a tortoise? it took our vets in our country 1-2 hours just to cut thru the scutes with powertool!!! most vets in our country use powertool to make smooth shell edges, not with sanding paper, but with powertools, because tortoise scute are the hardest material in animal kingdom like rhino horns!

As previously stated, it sounds like your vets need access to higher quality powertools if it takes that long to get the job done...pretty sure Dremel ships world-wide and that's what my veternarian uses.

http://www.dremel.com/Pages/default.aspx

don't be naive to think sanding or rubbing will damage thru the scute....

also, if the tortoise detected that the scute is thinning, it will release more keratin underneath to thickening the shell scute again!!

---

I will rub my aldabra with fine sand paper daily, and many people are actually do it with many different tools, what r u gonna do about't? call the cops or sue me...

---

I'm no troll or trouble maker, but I'm so sick and tired of this forum, every post or every reply, people kept saying, "please introduce yourself first", "no post until you introduce yourself", "can you post a picture of what you said", "can you give us the link?", "can you show us any photo?", can you this and can you that. God, I had never been to any forum like that in my entire life!!!

We're simply a friendly bunch of folks...does the Governmnt spy on it's people in your country? You seem a little paranoid in the previous rant!

Also, all the answers seem like one sided, different opinions or experimenting ideas are immediately attacked or rejected or refuted, what do you guys want the world to be? Borgs? one minded freaks, no good for improvement.....tortoise raising is still very new and young, human still don't understand many thing happening to tortoise in captitive.

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Hope you'll read and accept this in the spirit it was offered.

 

[Tccarolina]

Rustyiron,
Sanding your tortoise will neither stop pyramiding nor fix pyramiding that has already occurred. Pyramiding affects the underlying bone. Sanding the outer layer of scutes will not change the shape of the bone it is covering. The pyramids are not thick layers of scute, but simply a thin layer of scute sitting on a bone hump. Once it has formed it CANNOT be fixed.

New pyramiding involves only the fresh, newest developing ring of growth around the edge of each scute. If sanding were to do any good at all, you would only need to worry about this area. But it is soft, and you'd probably only damage it by trying to sand it. Plus, still growing wild-caught tortoises do not have worn looking new rings. The newest rings are as clean and crisp looking as captive raised tortoises, so if your goal is to mimic the look seen on wild tortoises, there is nothing to do to these newest rings, as they already look the same as wild tortoises.

IF. . . your goal is not to fix pyramiding, but just to have a smooth, polished tortoise like some old, wild tortoises look, then you might wait a couple decades before starting, since that's about when the natural wear of wild tortoises begins to smooth their shells. Total smoothing depends on the wild tortoises environment and activity, but isn't often seen, so you might be looking at making your activity last two to three decades.

I doubt you will hurt your tortoise by sanding it lightly on occasion, but it will irritate him. If you wore a bike helment all the time, and every day someone held you in place and sanded the helmet, it wouldn't hurt you either. But you would find it irritating and stressful. If you do this, your tortoise will have additional stress it doesn't need. He will associate your presence with the sanding, and become stressed when you're around. Stress makes for a good environment for all the bad things like parasites, disease, and other disruptions of healthy behavior. Stressed animals don't feed as well, ignore the need to drink, and are less healthy. If you really do have an aldabra, it seems like and expensive tortoise to pioneer a new controversial treatment on.

 

[Rustyiron]

does the Governmnt spy on it's people in your country? You seem a little paranoid in the previous rant!

Thank god our government doesn't have the technology to spy on our iphone, gmail I mean email, and internet and communcations! Also no TSA and whateverland security etc....

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If you really do have an aldabra, it seems like and expensive tortoise to pioneer a new controversial treatment on.

There you guys go again, from day one when I asked question about my Aldabra, people just keep doubting I had a aldabra, and asked me to proof this and proof that. Why you also don't believe I have owned an aldabra? My country is rich, our people are rich, and my father was a Harvard post doctoral fellow and a professor, you know how much he paid for his tuition in Harvard per year? US$60-70,000!

You don't believe I have an aldabra? check it if it is a computer made photo?!!! God, I'm so sick of this forum, bye, forever!!!!

 

[Madkins007]

Interesting... I have no idea if Rustyiron will come back to read this or not, but I think this thread clearly demonstrated a few interesting issues.

1. It started with a controversial issue, that not really well described (the use of the term 'sanding', I think, triggered a lot of the reactions), that SEEMED to be just looking for advice.

2. It drew a variety of posts, ranging from 'oh my god NO' to discussions of scute structure. Many of the replies did appear to be a little harsh or judgmental, looking at it as dispassionately as I can. (I feel like I know many of the posters, though, so I can understand where they came from.) However, as the discussion continued, it appeared to get more open and friendly.

3. The OP seemed to hone in on those posts that most agreed with his original thoughts (a very common phenomena- we always most accept people and ideas that are already in line with ours and demand higher proof for other ideas.) It became increasingly apparent that he was not really looking for ideas as much as he was looking to validate his ideas.

4. One post in particular seemed to trigger a fairly angry response from the OP, then he seemed to grow irate with requests that were intended to get to know him better or to find out what he was basing his stuff on. He mentioned, in post #25 "no post until you introduce yourself"- which is not a forum policy and he was obviously posting without introducing himself.

In fact, post #25 is interesting in many ways. He makes several accusations against us and the forum; makes comments about tortoises, scutes, and so forth that are questionable or at least debatable; he claims we are all doing 'group think' and replying from a common base which is not true from what I saw (although there was a pretty consistent request for citations, which he seems to have felt was rude on our part). His tone has become quite belligerent.

By post #30, he was attacking individuals, equating the idea of providing citations for comments to demanding that someone prove their background- this from a person that did not respond much to requests to get to know them better.

By #35, he seemed to think we were really dumping on him, at least in part because one poster mentioned "If you really do have an aldabra, it seems like and expensive tortoise to pioneer a new controversial treatment on". The phrase 'if you really do' seems to have been taken as a challenge to his veracity, but that is not what it looked like to me.

5. The paper from the Tortoise Trust that he refers to as proof of his ideas is a great set of field observations, but it is only so-so in some of the conclusions. They did no testing to see if gentle abrasion in captivity did anything to reduce keratin build-up. The paper moves from good field observations to thoughts and theories rather seamlessly- I would have been much happier had they labeled the theories as such.

6. Reviewing his other threads, he seems to have several tortoises (Aldabara, Sulcata, Leopard), but asks a lot of questions that are interesting in the combination of beginner and advanced issues they bring up. He has asked a lot and shared very little. Some of his posts and comments seem inconsistent with being an experienced keeper, but again, we know little about him.

Overall, an interesting thread. I hope you come back RustyIron.

 

[Yvonne G]

Sebastian (rustyiron) is 14 years old and he lives in Hong Kong.

Now that you know his age, does it change your way of thinking? I think he sounds much older than his years and really gave us a run for our money until he started taking offense.

And, Sebastian, its totally up to you if you want to tell us your name and where you are. That's the question I ask all new members, simply because we're a friendly group of people and I like to call my friends by their real name. I'm sorry if I made it sound as if you HAD to tell me your name before you were allowed to post. That's not the case at all.

 

[Tccarolina]

Rustyiron,
This thread is the first time I've noticed you on this forum. I did not know you've had prior questions about your owning an aldabra. My apologies for compounding that issue. I just meant that here in the States, aldabras are among the most valuable and least owned tortoises, and as such a poor candidate for this research. Maybe they are plentiful and inexpensive in Hong Kong. Either way, it is your tortoise, and its life and health are entirely in your hands. I assume you want the best for your tortoise, and hope you give some of these responses some thought.

Please keep in mind that these are all different peoples answers to the question that YOU asked. I'm sorry that you took my answer poorly, but I tried to answer it as best as I could in response to your question.
BTW, I was in Hong Kong in 1997. It is a beautiful city.

Steve

 

[BrinnANDTorts]

Where on earth would u keep such a large tortoise in Hong Kong? Isn't the whole city just apartments and sky scrapers ? I'm just curious

 

[Talka]

Actually, and I'm shocked to find this out, the city is half parks, half skyscrapers!! Maybe it's possible to convert a room in the house/apartment and then take the tort out for a walk!

Take a peek around the city with street view. It's incredible!