Is Hibernation Absolutely Required?

[ascott]

Yvonne, I would bet they would. You have great skill and intuition when it comes to these shelled beauties...IMHO.

I kinda equate this thinking with that of a butterfly, if a butterfly never has to struggle to achieve the first flaps of the wings they then never learn to fly.....this has been studied in great depth.

I do believe that the old phrase "survival of the fittest" applies for a variety of reasons..... there is a lot that happens when a species strives to survive...survival equals life and life equals living...living in turn allows a species to thrive....we humans can not change evolution, when we think we can is when things go horribly wrong...evolution will happen no matter how hard we fight it.....

My human nature will make me grasp something tightly and firmly and not want anything bad to ever happen to it...but the flip side of us domesticated humans is the wild...the purest form of life...the simplest, the most magnificent, the most beautiful, untainted form of life. This is when I remember to loosen the grip and step back and observe and offer aid in the smallest way possible as not to disrupt it, to not humanize it...but rather let it be.

 

[CactusVinnie]

Terry, these are iron-clad facts!! Opinion is something subjective or objective, but supporting facts make correct opinions= scientific truth. Statistics. Nothing subjective. Not "opinion".

If these are not facts, I wonder what do you will admit as facts? Really!!

When one takes an animal out of the wild, it is then in captivity, and it is flat-out impossible to replicate every aspect of the wild in a captive state...and thinking one can do otherwise is simply foolish conceit.

It's an entirely different scenario, wild-bred/born vs. captive-bred/born, and it's helpful to remember that.

Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/newreply.php?tid=38255#ixzz1i3MAnkEe

If you call this speculation of yours "iron-clade fact", and French study "just opinion"... I have no reply. Just see the subjectivity in your quote!
Yes, impossible to replicate every aspect- so what should we do?

Instead of trying to replicate as much as we can (wich can be often quite satisfactory), you say it is wiser (vs. "foolish conceit") giving it up from the start, and better totally mess-up the rules of nature, just because we cannot anyway replicate 100% the wild?

No offence, but it makes NO sense.

I know that I cannot offer the... 100 weeds they eat in the wild- instead, only 20, and another 20 with similar nutritional qualities. Quite good!
I know that my enclosures are not acres of bushes, forests and prairies, slopes and flats- but I do provide slopes, rocks, shade and sun. Quite good!
I know that my tortoises mate with another partner that they may find in the wild- but I found them pairs, and had perfect babies. Good enough!
Per total, I'd say satisfactory.

Now, if you ask me to randomly eat some of them just to please you in mimicking the natural predation, Terry, I'd say I intent to break this rule of nature. Also, I will not take them out in warm days in winter, as they rarely happen to do in the wild. Instead they will sleep at a slow changing temperature all winter: from 9*C in November... 3 in February... 9*C in April-> out. No mimicking burrow freeze, no heatwave.
But brumation, since I can quite succesfully offer to them, in the way I can offer to them, is here to stay on their schedule.

As I said before: instead of keep replying against brumation, thing that consumes time and forum space, why you guys don't try to just recommend overwintering in special cases, and describing the safe way to prepare for and hibernate a temperate tortoise?? And maybe posting it as a sticky, and in further interventions, just explaining in detail the steps for all those members that are still not sure about how to do that? It would be much, much more constructive for the hobby, and, of course, for the better maintenance of tortoises.
I really doubt that a beginner can meet the needs of a hatchling during the unnatural overwintering, but he can easy learn the preparing steps, succesfuly brumate the tortoise and having 5 times more chances of having the same tortoise alive and strong the next year. Because the FACTS just showed there are 5 times more juvenile mortality in overwintered tortoises.

Angela,

Well said, we cannot put that "weather onset and lack of food" piece out of the pie ! It IS part of the pie! It is funny how (far as I read) EJ put it here first time, some time ago, and some just take it and run further with it, not observing the part of the pie analogy.
Thanks for the English compliment !


Yvonne,

Can you please share your observation in tortoise hatchling mortality? These are real stuff; even if sad experiences, we can learn as well from loses as from successes. And it seems to complete the picture.
An American tortoise husbandry revolution? I hate revolutions, but that one deserves support !

 

[Yvonne G]

Its really nothing I haven't already said here on the forum at one time or another.

I take in baby tortoises that are surrendered to the Rescue. Most of them are Gopherus agassizii, and I get them in September, October right after they've hatched out. Way back when I first started getting them, I would set them up in an indoor-type setting, but outside on the car port. Back then I didn't use UVB lights, but on sunny days I would prop open the lid and sun would shine in. I always tried to adopt them out as soon as I could find good people to take them, but sometimes I was left with some until spring. Not all, but some just slowly got weaker and softer and eventually died, no matter what I would do to save them. After a couple years of this, I realized I'm not good with babies, and thereafter I would send them up to my sister in Oregon to head start for their first year. Then she would bring them back and I'd adopt them out. She would occasionally lose one, but not nearly as many as I lost.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Terry, these are iron-clad facts!! Opinion is something subjective or objective, but supporting facts make correct opinions= scientific truth. Statistics. Nothing subjective. Not "opinion".

If these are not facts, I wonder what do you will admit as facts? Really!!

When one takes an animal out of the wild, it is then in captivity, and it is flat-out impossible to replicate every aspect of the wild in a captive state...and thinking one can do otherwise is simply foolish conceit.

It's an entirely different scenario, wild-bred/born vs. captive-bred/born, and it's helpful to remember that.

If you call this speculation of yours "iron-clade fact", and French study "just opinion"... I have no reply. Just see the subjectivity in your quote!
Yes, impossible to replicate every aspect- so what should we do?

Instead of trying to replicate as much as we can (wich can be often quite satisfactory), you say it is wiser (vs. "foolish conceit") giving it up from the start, and better totally mess-up the rules of nature, just because we cannot anyway replicate 100% the wild?

No offence, but it makes NO sense.

I know that I cannot offer the... 100 weeds they eat in the wild- instead, only 20, and another 20 with similar nutritional qualities. Quite good!
I know that my enclosures are not acres of bushes, forests and prairies, slopes and flats- but I do provide slopes, rocks, shade and sun. Quite good!
I know that my tortoises mate with another partner that they may find in the wild- but I found them pairs, and had perfect babies. Good enough!
Per total, I'd say satisfactory.

Now, if you ask me to randomly eat some of them just to please you in mimicking the natural predation, Terry, I'd say I intent to break this rule of nature. Also, I will not take them out in warm days in winter, as they rarely happen to do in the wild. Instead they will sleep at a slow changing temperature all winter: from 9*C in November... 3 in February... 9*C in April-> out. No mimicking burrow freeze, no heatwave.
But brumation, since I can quite succesfully offer to them, in the way I can offer to them, is here to stay on their schedule.

As I said before: instead of keep replying against brumation, thing that consumes time and forum space, why you guys don't try to just recommend overwintering in special cases, and describing the safe way to prepare for and hibernate a temperate tortoise?? And maybe posting it as a sticky, and in further interventions, just explaining in detail the steps for all those members that are still not sure about how to do that? It would be much, much more constructive for the hobby, and, of course, for the better maintenance of tortoises.
I really doubt that a beginner can meet the needs of a hatchling during the unnatural overwintering, but he can easy learn the preparing steps, succesfuly brumate the tortoise and having 5 times more chances of having the same tortoise alive and strong the next year. Because the FACTS just showed there are 5 times more juvenile mortality in overwintered tortoises.

Vinnie, we all understand that you think these opinions are facts. And you're certainly entitled to your opinion on what the facts may be.

All I have is almost 40 years of experience in never losing a single tortoise, from hatchling to elderly, due to allowing my pets to stay awake, rather than brumate them. And I've known friends who mistakenly believed that brumating was absolutely required, and then lost their beloved pets from the mistake (one lost all 7 of her torts and took it pretty hard because a member of our Herpetological Society kept pushing the "Brumation is the only way" mindset until she gave in. A couple of her pets she had had almost 30 years).

Again, my point was to caution you from pushing your opinion, or that of others, on any aspect of tortoise keeping, as the only facts to consider.

Try starting your posts as "In my opinion"...it's much more honest.

 

[ascott]

Way back when I first started getting them, I would set them up in an indoor-type setting, but outside on the car port

I wonder Yvonne? If when the folks found them, then removed them, if that messed up the little one in such a way that the stress caused them to become weak...then of course they are no longer on a level playing field...so they would then need to have been treated as an ailing tortoise vs a healthy hatchling? If so, then unbeknownst to you when you send the little ones with your sister she is housing them as one would if you had an ailing hatchling....so then the outcome would of course be better than letting an ailing hatchling brumate...you know what I mean? You Yvonne offer the best guidelines on treating a tortoise that is under the weather....increased temps, soaking, quiet....

Also, if they were then already stressed and potentially ailing and then put out in the elements, so to speak, they would not be in the best situation to get well...(and I mean this as a total objective opinion based on the information here and not in ANY ANY ANY way knocking anything that was done....)

Back then I didn't use UVB lights, but on sunny days I would prop open the lid and sun would shine in.

You and I ABSOLUTELY agree with the concept that the sun is an almighty healer of alot of ailments....and can help considerably if dealing with a less than healthy, stressed tortoise, let alone an ailing hatchling...you know?

Just my take Yvonne

---

"In MY opinion" brumation is a vital part of certain tortoise species life. In my opinion it is a great disservice to these same tortoise to not learn the best method in with which to offer this event to the tortoise. In my opinion it is our duty who house and care for these tortoise to learn and set up the most successful method for these tortoise to continue their evolutionary design with brumation. As well as remove our own human emotions from the event...such as cold, starving, alone, sad, etc.

In my opinion it is a poor decision to suddenly obtain one of these tortoise who have never brumated and are 30 plus years old and suddenly place them into a brumation environment without the proper preparation.

In my opinion it is a poor decision for a person who has never cared for these species to read somewhere that brumation is the way AND then never research what is necessary to set up the most successful set up for brumation.

I find it curious that a person that has numerous years of tortoise care experience saying that the only reason that they have never lost a tortoise was because they have never offered brumation is a bit of a unsubstantiated statement, how would one know if they have never performed this event? So, seems to me that type of statement would be strictly one sided? Perhaps?

I believe that this is a subject that will always have two sides. In my opinion, both sides should be given equal honest set up for folks to take the real information from to better decide what they will do.

 

[CactusVinnie]

Terry,
That word-play about the opinion that I am entitled to, honnestity etc. is really not useful or answering no question. Please, let's leave that area, it goes into too much useless pseudo-psychological stuff. I just indicated facts, numbers, and Yvonne's observations in hatchling mortality did nothing but confirmed.

The tragic loss of these 7 tortoises- do you agree that you equally should start your opinion on the cause of death with "in my opinion", when you put the tortoise deaths to a very vague notion as "mistake to brumate"? Because it's so unclear, that it deserves at least the same caution you recommend to me when making an affirmation!

If during 30 years of keeping tortoises, that owner suddenly lost all of them, doesn't that ring a bell? That maybe one (less than one... impossible)... make it 2... were unable to brumate (this is not wild, but totally insane speculation, but let it be), but all 7 died from that? I would seriously doubt- no, I would have the certitude that this "brumation" was done without understanding and following those simple preparing steps. Especially when the owner had no idea how to do it- never doing that before!

And "mistakes in brumation" is one credible thing, while the "mistake to brumate" is simply nonsense- to put it more simple, if brumation itself was the cause, then temperate area would have been depleted by now of all its tortoises, since brumation had thousand of years to get them all killed.

Can you then say for sure what killed the lady's tortoises? Did you bothered to investigate, at least? What species? Hermanni, by case? For me, such a total wipeout during brumation sounds more like a brutal dehydration case, more than other causes.
What was the initial state of tortoises? No regular checking, no weighing? Fridge hibernation? Outbuilding? Location? Death by freeze? I rather doubt that it was outdoors... Any other relevant information?
If you do have the details about that horrible experience, it would be useful to share them here, because the mistakes we can find together can be pointed out as serious potential killers.

Also, do you kept records of your hatchling evolution? Did you kept them long enough, all of them? Have you ever heared about those you gave away? About all of them?
After 40 years of tortoise keeping and breeding, I really doubt that you either kept all the babies long enough, either keeping in touch with the buyers to be able to give me a fact-supported answer. Too much babies, and I speculate: in your signature there are only the old four tortoises, the breeding nucleus. 1.3.0 boettgeri- so that you usually gave the babies away quite soon. How can you be sure of their evolution after that?
Or they are maybe a breed that never experience mortality until 70 years of age ?
Please understand my doubts... hard to believe that you had zero hatchling losses in 40 years, while others (Frenchies) report up to 25%!! Ok, semi-immortal breed- not 25%, but... ZERO?? And you should have had lots of babies all these years! Are they French guys really dumb or just liars, only for that brumation-idea sake?

And, as Angela noticed- me too, but not my style to abruptly ask people "and what do you know about this stuff?"- you never brumated your tortoises!! As I said, I really admire your achievements- keeping healthy tortoises that breed regularly and having... let's say, good survival rate in hatchlings (see my doubts on zero losses...), all that without brumating ONCE! How can you debate on a thing you never tried?


Short story:
I killed 15 years ago 3 adult tortoises... and after that, I said I will never adopt one again. It started with a large female (1 winter- brumating), then a male (both-2 winter brumating), then receiving another pair just before winter no. 3. Inspected briefly the 2 newcomers- one seemed a lilttle weak- and put both of them in brumation, near the other 2.
Spring came, but it seems that the bath I offered to all of them was the moment of the (possible?) cross-infection. In less than 2 weeks, both the newcomers and the first male died... and the old lady, the first tortoise, was totally unaffected. Lucky me... the same year, manage to lose her- she escaped for good.
It sems that the newcomers were sick, and judging after the swift killing, it was the feared Chelonian Herpes Virus. Old lady naturally immune. It was a living tank.

Last year someone brought me a beautiful female tortoise found in great trouble- far from habitat, in a... pond, floating, and some Gypsy kids trying to make her sink, with helping sticks... After painful remembering of my lost tortoises, I said her "ok, but you will leave to Dobrogea with the first occasion"... then taking care of her, I saw the light : that's my revenge!! I will collect poor captives, breed them and release their babies back to Dobrogea, to pay my duty and respects to the lost ones! And that was the beginning of a beautiful friendship !

15 years ago, nobody knew a bit on tortoises here. No tradition in keeping them. No internet- it was a rarity. No literature available... I just read somewhere that they need a bath after winter sleep. No humidity control during brumation (luckily, my balcony was humid enough, otherwise I would have them killed much earlier, and all of them...), no other info. They stayed in a yard until cold weather came, then taking them home, wrapping in textiles, put in cardboard boxes, in a wooden closet in N-facing balcony... and that was all. Feeding? I was inspired to offer them only cabbage and tomatoes from the "bad" list; no fruits or animal items, it was obvious these are aberrations; usually plantain, dandelion and cichory- quite an inspiration.

What I wanted to say with all these above: 15 years ago, I was a genuine ignorant tortoise keeper, and I brumated them 3, 2 and 1 winter before the tragedy. If not that pathogen that killed 3 of 4 tortoises, my poor skills and knowledge hadn't get them killed, either during brumation or not.

If an ignorant like I was that time managed to brumate successfuly 3 and 2 years, not counting the 2 possible Trojan Horses, how on Earth a 30 years experienced keeper lost all her 7 tortoises at a time??
Brumation itself? Certainly not!
Incorrect understanding of brumation? More likely!

Cheers!


P.S.: look what you have done, Terry ! You scared Angela and she used that poor syntagm "in my opinion" in an obsessive, almost guilty manner! Let's say that, if all things should start with that creepy, politically correctness- related group of words, can we just skip it, and let it to be self-understood from the beginning?

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

"In MY opinion" brumation is a vital part of certain tortoise species life. In my opinion it is a great disservice to these same tortoise to not learn the best method in with which to offer this event to the tortoise. In my opinion it is our duty who house and care for these tortoise to learn and set up the most successful method for these tortoise to continue their evolutionary design with brumation. As well as remove our own human emotions from the event...such as cold, starving, alone, sad, etc.

In my opinion it is a poor decision to suddenly obtain one of these tortoise who have never brumated and are 30 plus years old and suddenly place them into a brumation environment without the proper preparation.

In my opinion it is a poor decision for a person who has never cared for these species to read somewhere that brumation is the way AND then never research what is necessary to set up the most successful set up for brumation.

I find it curious that a person that has numerous years of tortoise care experience saying that the only reason that they have never lost a tortoise was because they have never offered brumation is a bit of a unsubstantiated statement, how would one know if they have never performed this event? So, seems to me that type of statement would be strictly one sided? Perhaps?

I believe that this is a subject that will always have two sides. In my opinion, both sides should be given equal honest set up for folks to take the real information from to better decide what they will do.

A fair question...Not brumating tortoises in captivity didn't start with me...tortoise-keepers have "over wintered" European tortoises, as far as I've been able to find, since at least 1843, but possibly much longer.

A monk, Father David Knoessler, in (I think) Austria, wrote of his pet tortoise (not positive as to the species, but presume either hermannii or graeca) that he kept in his study during the cold part of the year and it shared his life for something like 35 years.

Just one example.

Absolute agreement that "this is a subject that will always have two sides. In my opinion, both sides should be given equal honest set up for folks to take the real information from to better decide what they will do"

 

[carnivorouszoo]

I love having all this information shared on both sides of this, but until I live where outdoor hibernation is possible so that its natural I won't do brumation/hibernation. Just too risky to me. Its too wet during the cold season here. So far my little Russian shows no signs of slowing down. He's an active little piglet XD

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Terry,
That word-play about the opinion that I am entitled to, honnestity etc. is really not useful or answering no question. Please, let's leave that area, it goes into too much useless pseudo-psychological stuff. I just indicated facts, numbers, and Yvonne's observations in hatchling mortality did nothing but confirmed.

The tragic loss of these 7 tortoises- do you agree that you equally should start your opinion on the cause of death with "in my opinion", when you put the tortoise deaths to a very vague notion as "mistake to brumate"? Because it's so unclear, that it deserves at least the same caution you recommend to me when making an affirmation!

If during 30 years of keeping tortoises, that owner suddenly lost all of them, doesn't that ring a bell? That maybe one (less than one... impossible)... make it 2... were unable to brumate (this is not wild, but totally insane speculation, but let it be), but all 7 died from that? I would seriously doubt- no, I would have the certitude that this "brumation" was done without understanding and following those simple preparing steps. Especially when the owner had no idea how to do it- never doing that before!

And "mistakes in brumation" is one credible thing, while the "mistake to brumate" is simply nonsense- to put it more simple, if brumation itself was the cause, then temperate area would have been depleted by now of all its tortoises, since brumation had thousand of years to get them all killed.

Can you then say for sure what killed the lady's tortoises? Did you bothered to investigate, at least? What species? Hermanni, by case? For me, such a total wipeout during brumation sounds more like a brutal dehydration case, more than other causes.
What was the initial state of tortoises? No regular checking, no weighing? Fridge hibernation? Outbuilding? Location? Death by freeze? I rather doubt that it was outdoors... Any other relevant information?
If you do have the details about that horrible experience, it would be useful to share them here, because the mistakes we can find together can be pointed out as serious potential killers.

Also, do you kept records of your hatchling evolution? Did you kept them long enough, all of them? Have you ever heared about those you gave away? About all of them?
After 40 years of tortoise keeping and breeding, I really doubt that you either kept all the babies long enough, either keeping in touch with the buyers to be able to give me a fact-supported answer. Too much babies, and I speculate: in your signature there are only the old four tortoises, the breeding nucleus. 1.3.0 boettgeri- so that you usually gave the babies away quite soon. How can you be sure of their evolution after that?
Or they are maybe a breed that never experience mortality until 70 years of age ?
Please understand my doubts... hard to believe that you had zero hatchling losses in 40 years, while others (Frenchies) report up to 25%!! Ok, semi-immortal breed- not 25%, but... ZERO?? And you should have had lots of babies all these years! Are they French guys really dumb or just liars, only for that brumation-idea sake?

And, as Angela noticed- me too, but not my style to abruptly ask people "and what do you know about this stuff?"- you never brumated your tortoises!! As I said, I really admire your achievements- keeping healthy tortoises that breed regularly and having... let's say, good survival rate in hatchlings (see my doubts on zero losses...), all that without brumating ONCE! How can you debate on a thing you never tried?


Short story:
I killed 15 years ago 3 adult tortoises... and after that, I said I will never adopt one again. It started with a large female (1 winter- brumating), then a male (both-2 winter brumating), then receiving another pair just before winter no. 3. Inspected briefly the 2 newcomers- one seemed a lilttle weak- and put both of them in brumation, near the other 2.
Spring came, but it seems that the bath I offered to all of them was the moment of the (possible?) cross-infection. In less than 2 weeks, both the newcomers and the first male died... and the old lady, the first tortoise, was totally unaffected. Lucky me... the same year, manage to lose her- she escaped for good.
It sems that the newcomers were sick, and judging after the swift killing, it was the feared Chelonian Herpes Virus. Old lady naturally immune. It was a living tank.

Last year someone brought me a beautiful female tortoise found in great trouble- far from habitat, in a... pond, floating, and some Gypsy kids trying to make her sink, with helping sticks... After painful remembering of my lost tortoises, I said her "ok, but you will leave to Dobrogea with the first occasion"... then taking care of her, I saw the light : that's my revenge!! I will collect poor captives, breed them and release their babies back to Dobrogea, to pay my duty and respects to the lost ones! And that was the beginning of a beautiful friendship !

15 years ago, nobody knew a bit on tortoises here. No tradition in keeping them. No internet- it was a rarity. No literature available... I just read somewhere that they need a bath after winter sleep. No humidity control during brumation (luckily, my balcony was humid enough, otherwise I would have them killed much earlier, and all of them...), no other info. They stayed in a yard until cold weather came, then taking them home, wrapping in textiles, put in cardboard boxes, in a wooden closet in N-facing balcony... and that was all. Feeding? I was inspired to offer them only cabbage and tomatoes from the "bad" list; no fruits or animal items, it was obvious these are aberrations; usually plantain, dandelion and cichory- quite an inspiration.

What I wanted to say with all these above: 15 years ago, I was a genuine ignorant tortoise keeper, and I brumated them 3, 2 and 1 winter before the tragedy. If not that pathogen that killed 3 of 4 tortoises, my poor skills and knowledge hadn't get them killed, either during brumation or not.

If an ignorant like I was that time managed to brumate successfuly 3 and 2 years, not counting the 2 possible Trojan Horses, how on Earth a 30 years experienced keeper lost all her 7 tortoises at a time??
Brumation itself? Certainly not!
Incorrect understanding of brumation? More likely!

Cheers!


P.S.: look what you have done, Terry ! You scared Angela and she used that poor syntagm "in my opinion" in an obsessive, almost guilty manner! Let's say that, if all things should start with that creepy, politically correctness- related group of words, can we just skip it, and let it to be self-understood from the beginning?

I'm guessing that you're quite a bit younger, so I'll just point out that, as you get older, it hurts less when the entire world doesn't agree with your opinion and chooses to think for themselves and/or disagree...

 

[CactusVinnie]

CZoo,

Yes, w- MO is far too wet, but you have options in order to brumate Talison. The simplest one: the fridge. Especially with a single tortoise.
My RT were too active piglets last year, at this time- I prolonged their active period in order to offer them a short brumation, that was planned to end right around natural awakening date. If forced with enough heat and light, tortoises stay active. For Horsfieldi, it was enough 13*-18*C ambient temperature with good basking area.

 

[ascott]

P.S.: look what you have done, Terry! You scared Angela and she used that poor syntagm "in my opinion" in an obsessive, almost guilty manner

!

LOL.. I elected to use the term completely out of respect ..there are times when a message can be met with a much more open mind and sometimes we can be more receptive when a simple request is granted. All good here

 

[CactusVinnie]

I'm guessing that you're quite a bit younger, so I'll just point out that, as you get older, it hurts less when the entire world doesn't agree with your opinion and chooses to think for themselves and/or disagree...

Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Is-Hibernation-Absolutely-Required?page=4#ixzz1i4PelwJD

Well, Terry, it seems that one can talk to you for quite a while, and harvest nothing than the usual cloud of north Texas dust...
As for the pain, I will try analgesics, but the cause of my pain is other than the one you guess... keep guessing. And after 38 years of pain, I got used to. It seems that the ole problem here is as well the same ole problem there, on the other side of the pond...

"Entire world doesn't agree"? ... It seems that you fight the bad fight, since you are running out even of repetitive postings.

Terry, do you realise that the only contribution brought by you, every time I met you, was a limited mindset and cheap irony? Short, pretended ironic sentences instead of arguments and answers don't make you look cool, manly, not to mention full of knowledge.

Can you skip that false Guru attitude and learn something: never talk before knowing the subject? And next time, can you bring real answers to real questions? You sound biased towards something, that I don't get yet. And I feel a strange lack of interest in finding the answer to your problem.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

I'm guessing that you're quite a bit younger, so I'll just point out that, as you get older, it hurts less when the entire world doesn't agree with your opinion and chooses to think for themselves and/or disagree...

Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Is-Hibernation-Absolutely-Required?page=4#ixzz1i4PelwJD

Well, Terry, it seems that one can talk to you for quite a while, and harvest nothing than the usual cloud of north Texas dust...
As for the pain, I will try analgesics, but the cause of my pain is other than the one you guess... keep guessing. And after 38 years of pain, I got used to. It seems that the ole problem here is as well the same ole problem there, on the other side of the pond...

"Entire world doesn't agree"? ... It seems that you fight the bad fight, since you are running out even of repetitive postings.

Terry, do you realise that the only contribution brought by you, every time I met you, was a limited mindset and cheap irony? Short, pretended ironic sentences instead of arguments and answers don't make you look cool, manly, not to mention full of knowledge.

Can you skip that false Guru attitude and learn something: never talk before knowing the subject? And next time, can you bring real answers to real questions? You sound biased towards something, that I don't get yet. And I feel a strange lack of interest in finding the answer to your problem.

Turn the ol' ego down a few notches, son.

 

[jaizei]

can't think of a compelling reason to even consider doing so.

I can think of a million + years worth of proof that is pretty compelling to me...

IMHO

Many reptiles, even those that do not need to do so in their 'natural' range, are able to brumate. It has been mentioned on this very forum; Aldabras, Redfoots, Leopards and Sulcatas. So just because they can doesn't mean we should force them to. It's a tool for survival, and some tortoises just have to use it more often than others.

Jaizei, it is not the same thing!! All these tortoise will die if subjected to a temperate climate winter; the fact they are able to reduce their metabolism to cope with the seasonal changes of a TROPICAL climate it's a totally different matter. They are adapted to take the challenges only from a warm climate, from equatorial to warm subtropical.
It is frost in Sahara; in Kenya; even in Pantanal! It barely lasts 1-2 hours. The tropical winter may bring even longer frosts, or dull coolish days, and the tortoises naturally stay hidden, sleeping. Even if they burry underground to avoid that short-lived cold, temperatures there are over 20*C, indiferent to the swings occuring above ground.
If air temperatures in a tropical area oscillate between -2*C and 45*C over an entire year, at only 20 cm deep it will be only between, let's say, 20*...30*C. In such warm burrows, obviously it is not about the same brumation we talk here about! One single month at 5*C I bet that kills or make seriously sick an Aldabra, Sulcata, Redfoot or Leopard. Not to mention longer or colder, including even freeze episodes!
So, they don't belong to the same category, and a parallel cannot be made.

Just for my information: how much cold and for how long had those 4 tropical species endured, in their brumation in captivity? I have no interest in these species and no more than a shallow knowledge about them, so I am very curious what they can take in a colder climate.

Cheers!

We aren't talking about 'natural' brumation but in captivity. So it is exactly the same. Stop feeding, cool down, dark box/room/fridge. The point was that these 'tropical species' can survive being brumated just like 'temperate species.' That means that the ability to brumate isn't special, or a good argument for forcing them to.

The argument that just because something happens in nature we should replicate it in captivity is kinda ridiculous. Especially concerning adaptions as a means of survival. There are plenty of lizards that have developed 'breakaway tails' to escape predators. They wouldn't have developed such an ability if they weren't supposed to use it, right? Should we periodically yank on their tails to simulate a natural occurrence? I can think of a million + years worth of proof.

 

[ascott]

The argument that just because something happens in nature we should replicate it in captivity is kinda ridiculous.

I would so like to hear exactly what prompts you to make this statement...really, I would. Will you please elaborate on this statement, as I want to make certain that I do not misunderstand?

 

[Tim/Robin]

"In MY opinion" brumation is a vital part of certain tortoise species life. In my opinion it is a great disservice to these same tortoise

Please expand on this more.......

I just can't see the "vital" part when many who do not "brumate/hibernate" have had and continue to have great success.

Equally, I can't see the "great disservice" part. Please enlighten us......

 

[ascott]

Please expand on this more.......

I just can't see the "vital" part when many who do not "brumate/hibernate" have had and continue to have great success.

Equally, I can't see the "great disservice" part. Please enlighten us......

brumation is a vital part of certain tortoise species life.

Certain species of tortoise life cycle have evolved to include brumation ..some state that the only reason that they do this is strictly due to weather and reduction in food, I on the other hand believe that there is more to it than that.... there are too many things that happen during brumation ...we should not alter their life cycle---....they are a creature that has endured the test of time, just as they are designed...and who are we to decide that they just don't need to do this...I certainly am not...nor do I find anyone else qualified to make this evolutionary decision. Hence a great disservice is done. As I said, this is what I believe.

Anything else?

 

[Tim/Robin]

Certain species of tortoise life cycle have evolved to include brumation ..some state that the only reason that they do this is strictly due to weather and reduction in food, I on the other hand believe that there is more to it than that.... there are too many things that happen during brumation ...we should not alter their life cycle---....they are a creature that has endured the test of time, just as they are designed...and who are we to decide that they just don't need to do this...I certainly am not...nor do I find anyone else qualified to make this evolutionary decision. Hence a great disservice is done. As I said, this is what I believe.

Anything else?

Yes, please go in to detail what all you believe happens during brumation...........

Is it more involved than a metabolic slowdown due to temperature? Is it not merely their way of surviving unfavorable conditions?

MODS: Feel free to prune this to its own topic if you feel it is getting off the topic of the OP's simple question of if hibernation is absolutely required.

 

[ascott]

Absolutely I will elaborate on my belief:

I believe that aside from the physical part of brumation...there is this huge thing called evolution;

any change across successive generations in the heritable characteristics of biological populations.

This is the one thing that you nor I can nor should muck with, what makes anyone think that for the short time that we have housed tortoise that we are going to change their instincts simply because we have forced domestication on them.....that way of thinking to me again shows how over inflated human kinds ego has become.....again, my beliefs shared here.

Anything further?

---

MODS: Feel free to prune this to its own topic if you feel it is getting off the topic of the OP's simple question of if hibernation is absolutely required.

Now, I have a question for you? What are your motives for questioning me? I know you have them. I have been clear and have continued to entertain your posts, now, how about you play like grown folks do and say what your motives are.

 

[CactusVinnie]

Turn the ol' ego down a few notches, son. Big Grin

Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Is-Hibernation-Absolutely-Required?page=4#ixzz1i69tag2r

Can't do that, Sir!! I am waiting for your example on how to to that, Sir!

We aren't talking about 'natural' brumation but in captivity. So it is exactly the same. Stop feeding, cool down, dark box/room/fridge. The point was that these 'tropical species' can survive being brumated just like 'temperate species.' That means that the ability to brumate isn't special, or a good argument for forcing them to.

Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/newreply.php?tid=38255#ixzz1i6AjCUoC

Jaizei,

Let's have a constructive discussion, can we? It could be interesting and useful if ego's, old ideas and lack of serious replies will not compromise it.
Brumation is almost the same in captivity as in the wild- and if the word "almost" will be another one that you will use to demolish my argumentation, this time please explain the difference with the reply. If it is so important to be mentioned, you should show me some things I was maybe missed. Although quite improbable, but I am open to your explanations.

As for the lizard tail part: although it's an evolutionary trait too and your funny comparison somewhat works as good humour, it is not the effective to compare a predator-escaping strategy with brumation, that has proved to have a obvious importance for hatchling and juveniles, even not much on adults- except the normal accelerated ageing. Brumation clearly implies serious endocrine processes, and the young tortoise metabolism is seriously disturbed without it.

\Please answer my previous question: the 4 tropicals mentioned, at what temperature and for how long can be brumated? I did may part to show you the differences between the rare cold episodes in the tropics and temperate brumation. If they were so cold-hardy, BTW, why are they limited to the intertropical area ?

And even if (and we both know that is pure fiction) those 4 tropicals would be able to endure the same cold as temperates ("The point was that these 'tropical species' can survive being brumated just like 'temperate species.'"), at least their hatchling mortality would be not by far the same, their systems being totally adapted for year-round summer.
But again, we both know it's fiction- don't tell me (or tell that with serious back-up) that those 4 can be brumated in a fridge, at 5*C, at least for 3 months. Please consider that reports like:
"my sulcata gets even in the snow and tries to eat some, before coming back to her 28*C enclosure", "it was frost in Tanzania once and a Leopard had some on its carapace", or "my Redfoots just brumate for an entire month when temps are about 15*C" and so on...
do not account a bit.

MODS: Feel free to prune this to its own topic if you feel it is getting off the topic of the OP's simple question of if hibernation is absolutely required.

Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/newreply.php?tid=38255#ixzz1i6P3tCl0

Wow, Tim/Robin!! Hold on your tortoises!! Pruning?? No s...nake?
Please consider and respect the time and interest of those who really brought something to that discussion, things that none of guys in your "team" ever brought. So, please, indicate for pruning only your sterile "against"-type of replies, because they are quite empty of useful information or contra-arguments to our explanations.


Pasting the "extra" considered part to the

Continuation of hibernation discussion

would be a much better suggestion.

Of course, put before all of these the almighty IMHO.