Is Hibernation Absolutely Required?

[EricIvins]

I think this thread just goes to show that the majority of keepers really don't know squat about the Brumation process........It's unfortunate that people with a few Tortoises and very little real world experience can throw their opinions around like some sort of gospel because it's the "right thing to do" or because its "natural".........But I digress.......

FACT - ( What we do know ) - Some Tortoises shut down naturally, whether CBB or wild caught..........WE CAN'T STOP THIS.......

FACT - Some Tortoises DON'T shut down naturally IN CAPTIVITY - Do they NEED to? NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

FACT - These Tortoises that don't shut down naturally function just fine - No different than a Tortoise that will naturally go down when the time is right........


Please, if anyone can provide quantitative Data that contradicts the facts above, feel free to post away........Not useless opinion, but hard Data........

 

[CactusVinnie]

Eric,

I got your message, since only Angela and me are on the "other" side, and me being more suited to be addressed to... even indirectly. Altough that kind of replies are not adding anything new, I will repy you, as I feel I was pointed to above.

My experience, altough little, proved to be most effective than that so-called "longtime experience" of people that really don't know "squat" on hibernation. Unfortunately, as you say, it seems that despite the rank obtained through many messages- or just pure ignorant beginners- lack of experience in brumation is no problem for many people to interfere and just throw "useless opinions" on a subject they didn't even know about. Although not at all complicated, they just have no experience in it.

So, I don't need decades of experience to get an elementar understanding of tortoises. They live a healthy life, breed resulting healthy babies, go underground spontaneously- I just digg them up and place in controlled hibernacula. No accelerated growth, but exactly as in nature.
I wouldn't give my little, but consistent knowledge and experience on longtime, but sterile tortoise keeping. After all, I am one of the few here that really brumate his tortoises, and ironically, some of the few truly entitled to a pertinent opinion on the subject, despite my admitted little experience- even if some like that or not, it's fact.

Your so-called facts are nothing but OBSERVATIONS. Little facts, it's true. But far from being considered the answer, since they invariable contain the word "some".
"FACT no. 2" is in... fact ... a conclusion, and it's as subjective as it could be.

I already admitted, from finding how well are overwintered tortoises and their reasonable reproductive output, that for adults or older juveniles overwintering is not anymore a potential killer- yep, that's FACT. Although at least GB, from the ones posting here, noticed a real difference in the mood to breed and fertility rates. And many other breeders that I stumbled upon during my forums-digging noticed the same thing.
But I showed you as well that for hatchlings and small juveniles that overwintering is more than a potential killer- FACT too.

So, I would consider the case almost closed, but biased pro-brumation, since at least for a while (first critical years), it was proved that lack of it has a negative effect on tortoises.

If it is required to draw a line that sums all observations and a single "yes or no" type of answer is needed to the question "is brumation necessary?":

Overwintering
Hatchling+very young- significant mortality demonstrated
Adults+older young- insignificant or absent mortality
Reproductive mood and fertility- sometimes reduced, but not absent

Brumation (not accounting flagrant mistakes! Brumation itself only!)
Hatchlings+very young- reduced mortality demonstrated
Adults+older young- insignificant or absent mortality
Reproductive mood and fertility- never affected, optimum level

Simple math/common sense/logic indicates, naturally, YES.

I supopose that you didn't read those quantitative data you asked- check the link I posted in some messages above.

Someone told me that US keepers, not living in tortoise country, take great care and limiting risks, things that guys like me ignore, since I live in tortoise country and if lost one, I can easily "rescue" another one directly from habitat... while they haven't that "luxury", and only way to have a tortoise is to offer the best to the ones they have.

My delayed reply is: the whole tortoise population of Romania was numerically exceeded many times by the US "careful" keepers-fed import. If it's to consider tortoise keepers proportionally in US population/RO population, even this way, you still lead. CB's? just a nice story... the crushing bulk are WC's. That's pretty all I wanted to say...

... Including brumation.
It is an acceptance matter from now on, since all the logical reasons were used in explaining. No resonance? No problem, we'll survive. Just hoping that the thousands tortoises leaving Central Asia "ranching" compounds, Slovenian "farms" and Maghreb countries "poacher bazaars" will keep up with the US demand and with the "care" US keepers are advised to offer them... At least my s....y country is not an engoulfing "black hole" for "legal" tortoises that in fact belong to their countries wilderness...

 

[Tim/Robin]

Wow, Tim/Robin!! Hold on your tortoises!! Pruning?? No s...nake?
Please consider and respect the time and interest of those who really brought something to that discussion, things that none of guys in your "team" ever brought. So, please, indicate for pruning only your sterile "against"-type of replies, because they are quite empty of useful information or contra-arguments to our explanations.

Fabian, you clearly misunderstood my remark. Please slow down and reread it!!!! I said "prune to its own topic". Let me simplify that for you, since this discussion is not related directly to the original question posted, Mods feel free to move it to a topic of its own. Is that easier to understand? I in no way meant to cut out any of the discussion or content.

I do not belong to any team here and have no idea why you would say that. I simply asked for elaboration of certain views Angela had posted.

Angela: my motive is nothing more than to learn. I can't wrap my mind around such strict comments as "disservice" and "vital". The term "disservice" implies that those of us that chose not to "brumate" certain tortoises are not doing all we can to provide well for them. You cannot take the term "disservice" as anything but negative!

For those who care to know, I allow my tortoises to do as they choose. Many know we keep a rather rare species native to Madagascar among various other species. Our Pyxis tortoises slow way down in the winter time. They become very inactive and eat very little if anything. Do we change anything in our husbandry to move them to this, NO. Do we change anything as a result of their choosing to slow down, YES. They still have the same light and heat, albeit the natural length of daylight is significantly shortened in the winter months. They are only offered food once or twice a week. Some will eat, some won't. So, no one can say we belong to any "team". We allow our tortoises to do as they choose. As for our Mediterranean species, they have a cool area and a warm area in their enclosures. Some choose to move to the heat daily, some do not. None have chosen to stay in the cool area for weeks at a time.

My belief is brumation is what tortoises do to survive their environment. They do it because suboptimal or unfavorable conditions exist. Simply put, they have to or they will die! In captivity, we can provide optimal or favorable conditions for them so they do not have the "need" to "brumate" for survival. I have not read or experienced anything to show that "brumation" is anything more than a metabolic slowdown that allows them to survive. Is it a part of evolution, YES. They have evolved to survive unfavorable conditions. Just as many birds have evolved specific beaks to allow for survival in different environments. Evolution is a process of change over generations to ensure survival.

PS. Can anyone find the article in the Reptilmag in English? I would like to read it. I am all too familiar with statistics and research. You cannot take one research article as gospel. Statistics can ALWAYS be skewed to show the desired outcome. One always has to critique the research. Who funded the project? What was the sample size? What are the variable involved? Where the hibernated and non-hibernated specimens subjected to other differences? Could the research be duplicated with similar results? ETC..................

 

[ascott]

Angela: my motive is nothing more than to learn. I can't wrap my mind around such strict comments as "disservice" and "vital". The term "disservice" implies that those of us that chose not to "brumate" certain tortoises are not doing all we can to provide well for them. You cannot take the term "disservice" as anything but negative!

I will have to honestly reply with, yes, that is what I personally feel. The absence of learning something because it makes us uncomfortable, in my opinion, is a disservice. But then again, anytime this subject comes to light I have never disguised my feelings on brumation.

However, you should take no more issue with my feeling that way than I do with you feeling the opposite, you know? I am completely alright with and expect nothing different than folks having their own opinion....life should be that way, that to me is what ignites new findings and discoveries in a beneficial way.

I have said this before and I truly mean it....I share my beliefs not with the intent to get anyone to change their own mindset on this subject. That there are two sides to this subject. That there are folks who set up for this event and the tortoise are successful and thriving.

Do we change anything in our husbandry to move them to this, NO.

Can you not allow yourself to agree then that this is and evolutionary trait then, that even though you have changed nothing, they still have the pull and drive ? This is not a set up statement, truly, a statement for meeting of the mind...

Do we change anything as a result of their choosing to slow down, YES. They still have the same light and heat, albeit the natural length of daylight is significantly shortened in the winter months. They are only offered food once or twice a week. Some will eat, some won't. So, no one can say we belong to any "team". We allow our tortoises to do as they choose.

Here is where I see an animal struggling between what is instinct and what is an altered state? My comment again IS NOT a slam, but simply an observation of what you describe....again, a point for discussion and not a point to get anyone to be on a team....

Also, I have CDTs. I know their life cycle. I try to offer them exposure to each and every part of their life cycle--with regards to this thread--brumation included. Do I think that I am a better caregiver than someone who does not include brumation in their offerings, no---I only wish when I see that someone does not is that they have made this choice for some real reason other than that of fear for losing a tortoise....there are so many other ways that people lose a tortoise being kept than this...

So, let me be clear as to what my beliefs is in response to this thread (although I have already done this)....is hibernation absolutely required?

I would have to say yes, I have found that it is a vital part of a brumating tortoise species to be allowed and should be encouraged to perform this event.
I would suggest against anyone new to a brumating tortoise species just thinking that they can perform the event with no research and with no guidance, so do your research if you are going to care for a tortoise species that includes this event as part of their normal life cycle.
I would suggest against brumating a tortoise that is new to you---I feel that you need to get to know the behavior of your particular guest in order to notice something going awry.
I would suggest against brumating an ailing tortoise, as their immune system is not at its strongest---sure this tortoise will be hard to keep awake but keep at it, this tortoise will not forget what to do with a missed brumation while they get healthy.
I would suggest you research the act and set up of brumation if the species of tortoise you care for has evolved to include brumation.
I do not believe that humans are qualified to alter such an evolutionary trait, as we will not be around long enough to fully grasp what our tinkering may cause...when in fact we have proof of the success evolution has equipped these tortoise with.

That is my stand on this particular subject and my reply to this thread.

I appreciate all that have participated in this thread and for the offer extended to me to join the conversation by the posting of this thread.

 

[CactusVinnie]

Tim/Robin,

I was jumping because it sounded quite familiar, and the term "pruning" usually means something else. But since you explained your intention, glad to know it was nothing hostile. It's OK then !




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About hibernation: it was not that kind of "sponsored study" with "predictable outcome"- those are ordered by entities who mean serious money involved; there is no "Brumating Tortoise Union" or "Winter Tortoise Triad" . It was an amateur study, but those amateurs are amongst the best tortoise experts, since the pompose academics are rarely also tortoise breeders. And from those who are, all advocate brumation. No commercial reasons involved, no emotional anthropomorphysing of tortoises, and the usually natural approach, dogmatic for any scientist.

Asking a biologist/ecologist about solid prove on how brumation is necessary and overwintering is wrong is a nonsense, since their invariable answer (mine including, being an ecologist) would be approximately:

... why to modify the parameters in wich an animal evolved and shaped its metabolism and biological cycle, instead of replicating them in the possible limits, just because they still live? "Still live well" is not by far a scientific argument! That's a hobby-world thing, when emotional approach prevail and has nothing to do with science. Also, the same approach can be met for instance in chicken farms, with crazy artificial night/day cycles and other horrors, to obtain fast and more profit- they live and breed there, but that has nothing to do with animal study, but solely with PROFIT.
And the hobby-thing ... it would be ideal to shift from emotional, shallow and ignorant approach towards a more artisan-attitude, with care in replicating natural conditions as much as possible in a small tortoise garden, with documentation in habitat conditions, and maybe towards the ultimate level of understanding love for animals- conservation. They do that in Europe. They study habitats, they learn, and became redoutable experts (even if they are... IT people, plumbers or dentists as a profession). There are many cases of hobbysts that became true experts and enthusiast conservationists, in tortoise and many other categories of animals and plants.
So, tortoise keeping or chicken breeding? Emotional, immature, ignorant and antropomorphysed, or documented amateur approach? There was no tortoise discussion here, only a bit of a conflict between natural-approach and toy-approach concerning tortoises. As usual, the poorest idea defends itself much better, since it has no argument- it just requires arguments from normality to legitimate it, and sometimes normality has no words to explain itself, because it's SO obvious! And poorest idea never tires, since it has no shape. It is enough for it to just be, and it's invincible.
It's a global trend, in all the respects...

 

[Tim/Robin]

I will have to honestly reply with, yes, that is what I personally feel. The absence of learning something because it makes us uncomfortable, in my opinion, is a disservice.
However, you should take no more issue with my feeling that way than I do with you feeling the opposite, you know? I am completely alright with and expect nothing different than folks having their own opinion....life should be that way, that to me is what ignites new findings and discoveries in a beneficial way.

I just find it terribly insulting that you boast that if we chose not to subject our animals to unfavorable or suboptimal conditions, that we are doing them a disservice. How can that be anything but insulting! There is no absence of learning or anything uncomfortable about brumation here. It is simply a choice to provide favorable conditions year round and allow the animals to do as they wish. I do not see that in any way a disservice to them!

Do we change anything in our husbandry to move them to this, NO.
Can you not allow yourself to agree then that this is and evolutionary trait then, that even though you have changed nothing, they still have the pull and drive ? This is not a set up statement, truly, a statement for meeting of the mind....

I have never once stated that this is NOT an evolutionary trait. Again, in Madagascar there is a time period that would not support their existence if they did not slow down. (Of interest, it has more to do with wet and dry than temperature). They absolutely have evolved to survive in their environment. Again, I allow them to do that which they choose.

Do we change anything as a result of their choosing to slow down, YES. They still have the same light and heat, albeit the natural length of daylight is significantly shortened in the winter months. They are only offered food once or twice a week. Some will eat, some won't. So, no one can say we belong to any "team". We allow our tortoises to do as they choose.

Here is where I see an animal struggling between what is instinct and what is an altered state? My comment again IS NOT a slam, but simply an observation of what you describe....again, a point for discussion and not a point to get anyone to be on a team....

How is this a struggle? I do not see your reasoning here. How is an animal that is allowed to do as it chooses struggling?

So, let me be clear as to what my beliefs is in response to this thread (although I have already done this)....is hibernation absolutely required?

I would have to say yes, I have found that it is a vital part of a brumating tortoise species to be allowed and should be encouraged to perform this event.

I strongly and respectfully disagree. We will likely always disagree on this. But, how can it be absolutely required when many keepers have great success without it? It simply cannot be absolutely required!! I will leave it at that, a disagreement.
However to all keepers, PLEASE do not feel or think that brumation is an absolute requirement in keeping healthy productive tortoises! It simply is NOT!

 

[ascott]

The absence of learning something because it makes us uncomfortable, in my opinion, is a disservice.

I have observed so many times....folks do not know what is involved with this event--- they have heard horror stories of how so many tortoise have died as a result strictly of brumation, how folks are scared to brumate because they have heard stories, some stories told from folks who have not ever set up a tortoise for this event----and not because they have researched the set up for offering brumation.

So, when a person asks me what my take is on if brumation is required...my response will be yes, in their natural life cycle it is required-----not in the wild not in captivity--but rather, yes, in their life cycle it is required....so this is where I say, it is a disservice to a brumating tortoise species to not learn what the event is and how to successfully set up brumation for a brumating tortoise species.

You can take my feelings as a personal jab at YOU, HOWEVER, my feelings have nothing to do with you....but rather, the subject of brumation.

So as you have said, I will gladly accept that you have made your post about I am wrong and you are right---therefore, happily agree to disagree on seeing eye to eye on the discussion here.

I do hope that any new caregivers to brumating tortoise species understand that it IS totally up to them whether or not they set up their tortoise for brumation or not, but hope that they do this by research and research studies along with hearing what folks who have had direct experience with setting up for brumation think and what works in their practices....as this is a buffer for them creating their own set up---IF that is what THEY feel they should do.

 

[Tim/Robin]

So as you have said, I will gladly accept that you have made your post about I am wrong and you are right---therefore, happily agree to disagree on seeing eye to eye on the discussion here.

It has nothing to do with who is right or wrong! It simply has to do with the general statement of "brumation/hibernation an absolute requirement. Your own words reiterate this fact.

IF that is what THEY feel they should do.

By giving a keeper the choice, doesn't it negate the absolute requirement argument?

 

[CactusVinnie]

Tim/Robin,

How is this a struggle? I do not see your reasoning here. How is an animal that is allowed to do as it chooses struggling?

Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Is-Hibernation-Absolutely-Required?page=5#ixzz1i8iL4ozS

No intention to slam from me neither, just a single point, IMO a keypoint: they are tough fighters and it can be called "struggle", since from the moment we, humans, decide for them, from various "signs" or through sheer force, no matter the "signs", that they will overwinter, they have no way to do as they choose . They don't command you to keep a long day and summer temperatures- they just follow your will.

It cannot consider anymore that they "prefer" something, from the moment you took them indoors, and create in their ancient brain a conflict between decreased daylength and abnormal, persistent warmth of the indoors. Deep there, shortening day means time to start digging. Cool mornings, even with still warm days, make their behaviour change.

They finally cease eating, even if the temperatures are good enough to proper digestion. They know somehow that, undigested food in their stomach means certain death, and they are great in timing the date of the last serious meal, to fit the arriving of serious cold with empty stomachs- cold wich, by the way, they anticipate even if us humans don't suspect a sudden cooling.

They burrow partially, then totally, emerging in warm days. Even still in unconfortable cold days, they emerge- why??? Confirmation: after 2-3 days, warm weather arrives and occasions prolonged basking. They get quite hot to the touch, if they got a good protected spot and optimise their angle of exposure. But still no eating, maybe just nipping a leaf and that's all.

First serious cold is usually anticipated and it finds the tortoises already burried to a safe deep.

ALL THOSE THINGS WERE OBSERVATED BY MYSELF, and not many keepers will even hear about this complex behaviour! Why? They are not even suspecting that their tortoises are so much older and wiser than they think, and that it's fascinating to see them completing an annual cycle! Not even an occasion to try, since the rule in the US is to overwinter and all advices they receive are in this direction!! "Risky, even deadly, in many cases"- pfffff... better overwinter!

Now... at some point in autumn, you take it indoors. Total mess!! Some try to escape the warmth, avoiding at least the basking spot, some adapt easier to the sudden change. Finally, most will give up, and let you convince them it's summer.
I wonder how should they behave for the keeper to understand that they really want to brumate?? Keeping the hunger-strike is difficult after a while, and they should resume "normal" activity, or else they will burn out.
So, again antropomorphysation... keeper waits a sign from them, if they really want to brumate- behaviour change etc.; but he forgets that the tortoise already sent him all the possible signs, letting him see all the preparing ritual for winter, each stage with its exact role. After taking it indoors, keeper abolish what is natural and declares the law of his own will, and no creature can resist the forced summer.

I see advices on how to get a sleepy tortoise active... It is advised to offer them... aberration... 14-15 hours of artificial light , if the tortoise still resist to the indoor warmth and short daylength!!! That's midsummer in temperate areas!! Not even equatorial tortoises are experiencing such long days, they have 12/12 fix on 0 degrees lat. N and S!! So, they became not tropical, but Martian tortoises!! That's the aberrant chicken farm, with aberrant light cycles! It's so unnatural, that it cries for itself, no need to demonstrate nothing.

If an animal lover cannot see what's natural by itself, from the beginning, I'm affraid many keepers will never understand why some stubborn people keep saying some uninteligible things from wich some can hear from time to time an obsessive, agonising, "brumate, brumate"...


Angela,

Great point on "death stories"!! Why on the Euro forums I never managed to read a single case of hibernation death?? There may be some, but if not that easy to find them... that should ring a bell. Frozen tortoises and debile ones should not account, when rejecting brumation as a killer, better to be avoided. Just on BRUMATION itself!
It seems that brumating deaths are rather overrated legends than facts.

Comparing to number of deaths during other stage than brumation, that shady legend became even thinner, since I suppose that even now, a kid's tortoise just died, and it's a conveiller belt of non-brumation related deaths. Maybe another one died right now, since 2 weeks ago, someone fed it a good piece of nutricious banana before putting it in the fridge or outbuilding, to have strength in order to take a long winter sleep... and so on...
Well, that kind of events will later appear as "very well documented proof that brumation kill too often to be accepted as a rule"...

 

[Tim/Robin]

Tim/Robin,

How is this a struggle? I do not see your reasoning here. How is an animal that is allowed to do as it chooses struggling?

Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Is-Hibernation-Absolutely-Required?page=5#ixzz1i8iL4ozS

No intention to slam from me neither, just a single point, IMO a keypoint: they are tough fighters and it can be called "struggle", since from the moment we, humans, decide for them, from various "signs" or through sheer force, no matter the "signs", that they will overwinter, they have no way to do as they choose . They don't command you to keep a long day and summer temperatures- they just follow your will.

It cannot consider anymore that they "prefer" something, from the moment you took them indoors, and create in their ancient brain a conflict between decreased daylength and abnormal, persistent warmth of the indoors. Deep there, shortening day means time to start digging. Cool mornings, even with still warm days, make their behaviour change.

They finally cease eating, even if the temperatures are good enough to proper digestion. They know somehow that, undigested food in their stomach means certain death, and they are great in timing the date of the last serious meal, to fit the arriving of serious cold with empty stomachs- cold wich, by the way, they anticipate even if us humans don't suspect a sudden cooling.

They burrow partially, then totally, emerging in warm days. Even still in unconfortable cold days, they emerge- why??? Confirmation: after 2-3 days, warm weather arrives and occasions prolonged basking. They get quite hot to the touch, if they got a good protected spot and optimise their angle of exposure. But still no eating, maybe just nipping a leaf and that's all.

First serious cold is usually anticipated and it finds the tortoises already burried to a safe deep.

ALL THOSE THINGS WERE OBSERVATED BY MYSELF, and not many keepers will even hear about this complex behaviour! Why? They are not even suspecting that their tortoises are so much older and wiser than they think, and that it's fascinating to see them completing an annual cycle! Not even an occasion to try, since the rule in the US is to overwinter and all advices they receive are in this direction!! "Risky, even deadly, in many cases"- pfffff... better overwinter!

Fascinating! I don't see your point, but a fascinating read.

Now... at some point in autumn, you take it indoors. Total mess!!

Wrong!! Assume nothing!

I see advices on how to get a sleepy tortoise active... It is advised to offer them... aberration... 14-15 hours of artificial light , if the tortoise still resist to the indoor warmth and short daylength!!! That's midsummer in temperate areas!! Not even equatorial tortoises are experiencing such long days, they have 12/12 fix on 0 degrees lat. N and S!! So, they became not tropical, but Martian tortoises!! That's the aberrant chicken farm, with aberrant light cycles! It's so unnatural, that it cries for itself, no need to demonstrate nothing.

Huh?????


My point here has been made. One cannot argue that brumation/hibernation is an absolute requirement, which afterall is what the OP was asking.

 

[dmmj]

do tortoises (and reptiles in general) hibernate because they have to, or because they want to?

 

[CactusVinnie]

do tortoises (and reptiles in general) hibernate because they have to, or because they want to?

Hi Dmmj!

Trap-question ?
They surely have to, as cold-blooded, no choice; they better do, when captives (some contesting, see all the stuff).

As about what they want... one thing is sure: they want to live as their areal dictates, as any creature. They worked quite long to adapt to temperate environments that well. Otherwise, we would have found them in mild climates only. But as usual, adaptation became the 2-nd nature, and brumation is kinda physiological requirement now- nothing new, some creatures fare really bad without it, some show a certain degree of tolerance. Despite even a higher degree of tolerance, it is still a physiological requirement for optimum state.

As one stubborn new-arrived Ibera male keep showing me, some will insist to sleep indoors, for a while, then giving up. That guy still keeps hiding and sleeping while other newcomers bask and feed at this time. And health problems are out of the question: he was a Latino Feroz Lover during outdoor short episode. Maybe just exhausted from... too much love? To be investigated.

Definitely WC, max. 10 years old, maybe last 3-4 in captivity without brumation. And he still hasn't manage to learn his lesson... i wonder why?? He should be thrilled, ungrateful little fastidious bastard, finding himself in the regime that "he really wants", the one "he would surely choose" even in habitat... but cold and lack of food usually force him in that... despicable state called brumation. Maybe too young to know what is good for him?...

This guy surely made its point: even after at least 3 years in a warm appartment, he still tries to follow the ancient paths. The others eat reasonably (today- fresh Ranunculus and Malva). May this guy be one with a better memory ? But no problem, I'll show him what is better and safe for a temperate tortoise! He better don't push me, or else I will add another 200W bulb and we'll see then!

May I assume from that that he would be happier if cooler, then cold temps arrive, and he finally will CHOOSE to sleep in a cold place, because he just WANTS that, because he NEED it? Until now, it's quite obvious, IMHO.
If not allowed to "assume nothing" , at least I can say what he keeps me showing what he surely DON'T WANT, NEED or CHOOSE: basking spot, light and associated warmth. Vampire blood, Dracula Tortoise, or what??
Is this aversion of him towards light and warmth enough to be considered as "will'' or "need"? Because it is something from both here: he wouldn't want to, if he didn't needed to :shy:.

 

[Shelly]

I recall when we thought that desert (or arid) species needed no water (because they consumed all water they needed from food)

I still believe that to a very large degree.

 

[ascott]

However to all keepers, PLEASE do not feel or think that brumation is an absolute requirement in keeping healthy productive tortoises! It simply is NOT!

It has nothing to do with who is right or wrong!

Uh, this is why I said;
I will gladly accept that you have made your post about I am wrong and you are right

Hi Fabien,

I enjoyed your read back, this shows me that I am not expressing myself incorrectly, but rather, my words are simply being met with a closed mind by some others....which is to be expected with this being the thread topic...as when I read others read back---they are completely stuck on their ideas, which again, is to sadly be expected with this being the thread topic.

That's the aberrant chicken farm, with aberrant light cycles! It's so unnatural, that it cries for itself, no need to demonstrate nothing.

This is the most perfect description I have heard....

---

ascott Wrote:
I recall when we thought that desert (or arid) species needed no water (because they consumed all water they needed from food)

I still believe that to a very large degree.


Shelly, I also believe that they get a substantial amount of their water intake this way...however, I do know that they will consume water at every opportunity, eagerly

 

[CactusVinnie]

Not by far any experience with Gopherus, but obviously arid climate tortoises are careful in conserving water by burrowing. That's what the reduced need of drinking. When such conserving water facilities are missing in captivity, the tortoise will surely drink sooner or later.

Angela,

What brought me only a "Huh??" from Tim/Robin, seems to be a banal thing to get for you, in fact another way to express your own opinion. All the time your words didn't need extra explanations, and when anyway detailed, still no use. Our ideas were refused from the start. no matter how many attemps to explain.
Weird enough, as I said before, Europeans would find this debate quite funny, since it's obvious that if you can, you should replicate natural conditions as much as possible, brumation being the rule. We are maybe other... species, here in the Balkans, but W- Euros are Western-type mind persons too, like US people... still, on average, Euros show a higher degree of modesty, while (part of) US people have a dominating mindset. This dominating mindset express at all the life levels- even the pets should be as their Owners want; even temperate, the Testudo should behave as tropicals if the Owner wants to, regardless of anything.
Of course, it's the Govt influence passed through the agressive media, and, if I may speculate, lack of a broader knowledge level due to the hard-working, fast paced type of life, despite the multitude of information sources- after all, it's the USA there, a country that has huge research possibilities.

"Owner" vs. "Keeper" archetypes- the Keeper cares much more and strive to find more, to understand more, to offer more. The Owner doesn't need that- he just OWNS; his "subjects" should adopt his ways, not being understood and all the "eco-bio- natural-crap" some insist to impose. The Owner feels he has rights, a Keeper that he has obligations. A quite different approach.

Tim/Robin, check on Google keywords like "poultry, production, light cycle" etc. and see what I was talking about. If you don't see that horrible parallel, then my point was made too.

 

[Tim/Robin]

What you both refuse to see is I am neither pro nor con. I attempted to show that, but it seems it was a failed attempt. The comment about a closed mind surprised me. It is I who asked for futher discussion as I was trying to see Angela's point of brumation being absolutely required. I was hoping she could teach me something I did not know. I elaborated with the intent to show that it cannot be said that it is an absolute requirement. Nothing more, nothing less. Maybe it is a mere misunderstanding of definitions. To me, anything that is an absolute requirement would be met with failure if not provided or carried out. Such as food, if food is not offered or provided in some means, be it in a field to graze or in a dish, any animal will sooner or later fail. That is absolutely required.

Fabian, I am very familiar with poulty production and their use of light. Again, don't assume anything. You know nothing of my background or experience.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

What you both refuse to see is I am neither pro nor con. I attempted to show that, but it seems it was a failed attempt. The comment about a closed mind surprised me. It is I who asked for futher discussion as I was trying to see Angela's point of brumation being absolutely required. I was hoping she could teach me something I did not know. I elaborated with the intent to show that it cannot be said that it is an absolute requirement. Nothing more, nothing less. Maybe it is a mere misunderstanding of definitions. To me, anything that is an absolute requirement would be met with failure if not provided or carried out. Such as food, if food is not offered or provided in some means, be it in a field to graze or in a dish, any animal will sooner or later fail. That is absolutely required.

Fabian, I am very familiar with poulty production and their use of light. Again, don't assume anything. You know nothing of my background or experience.

Don't waste your time, Tim/Robin...CactusVinnie(Fabian) isn't interested in hearing anything that does doesn't support how Absolutely Correct his position on the matter is, and, so, the rest of us are Know Nothings. He even twists words and jumps to some bizarre (but amusing) conclusions to re-convince himself of his Absolute Correctness.

Angela may be somewhat more open-minded.

 

[Yvonne G]

I was just thinking (as I scrolled down the subjects of today's posts) that this thread was to be commended for its civility, even though there were strong thoughts on both sides.

So, let's please keep it civil. After all, this isn't a debate. We're just giving our opinions to the OP on whether or not hibernation (brumation) is required.

I am on the brumation side of things. If my type of tortoise brumates during the cold months in nature, then they also brumate here in my care.

But because I do turtle and tortoise rescue, I sometimes have to keep a tortoise up for the winter.

In my opinion, its up to the keeper. If they want to keep the tortoise awake, then go for it.

 

[ascott]

I just find it terribly insulting that you boast that if we chose not to subject our animals to unfavorable or suboptimal conditions, that we are doing them a disservice.

Again, here I simply shared what my beliefs are---my beliefs were taken as an insult, my beliefs have nothing to do with you---so not meant in any personal fashion directed at you...Boast? We must have a completely different understanding of this descriptive...I share my beliefs and it is reduced into Boasting?

However to all keepers, PLEASE do not feel or think that brumation is an absolute requirement in keeping healthy productive tortoises! It simply is NOT!

My point here has been made. One cannot argue that brumation/hibernation is an absolute requirement,

I strongly and respectfully disagree. We will likely always disagree on this.

It simply cannot be absolutely required!! I will leave it at that, a disagreement.

What you both refuse to see is I am neither pro nor con

Really? As I said before, I am happy to agree to disagree with you. We DO have opposite thoughts on this subject, again, I am happy to agree to disagree.

 

[Tim/Robin]

What you both refuse to see is I am neither pro nor con

Really?

Absolutely! If you reread all of my postings from the very beginning of this discussion I have only kept the take that it cannot be viewed as "absolutely required". I have never presented an argument for or against brumation. I have given personal examples of species I keep to illustrate that I allow them to do what they choose to do in my care.

Again, food is absolutely required, brumation is NOT absolutely required in keeping tortoises in captivity. I don't know how to make it any easier to comprehend than that.

Are other members having a difficult time seeing my point? Maybe I am lost in the flow of words and posts.