If he isnt a brazilian...then what is he?

[Hustler]

Last time i posted this guy someone had mentioned from the scales on his head he may not be brazilian so I took better pics of him in hopes of sorting his background out as i have him paired with my brazilian female.
He has the nose, he has the spurs on the inside of his armpits and he has red on his head not as prominent but sometimes it comes out well.

Thanks for the help guys

 

[Mgridgaway]

He's cute is what he is!

But seriously...you'll have to wait for someone more knowledgeable

 

[tortadise]

They're are different variations of brazilians. Most you see now days are the dwarf. When you get lineage from southern they can have naturally bred with bolivian down the line. According to my importer friend he has seen 2 main brazilians. A giant and a dwarf. The giants were found very south and south west towards the outskirts of the gran Chaco plains. No real way to tell. What do the parents look like? How old is this specimen? The giant brazilians tend to be around 10" at 3-4 years old or so. Looks a lot like a bolivian by the scales on the head. However does he have a secondary marginal scute row?

 

[mightymizz]

Can't really offer anything related to your question, but that is a very nice looking Tort!

 

[Madkins007]

I would call it a Brazilian, AKA Eastern or 'cherry-head.

Kelly- I've been researching this for some time, and some of the things you mentioned are news to me. I was wondering what your sources were so i could learn more about it.

For example, I can't find any real evidence for the 'dwarf' bit other than a few early batches that reached sexual maturity at a much smaller size than normal for this race- but we also need to remember that ALL Brazilians do that to some degree. As far as I can document, most 'cherries' sold as 'dwarfs' hit the usual size for the race- usually a few inches smaller overall. (Whether a race can be called 'dwarf' for this characteristic is one that can be debated forever. I prefer to use 'dwarf' for genetic abnormalities that affect gene lines rather than the entire race.)

From what I have found, some giants can be found in all races of red-footed tortoise, but the Southerns from the Gran Chaco area (Bolivia and Paraguay) seem to consistently hit the biggest sizes. (range map- https://sites.google.com/site/tortoiselibrary/red-foots/range-map )

Most sources do confirm that there are two types of Brazilians, but most divide them by 'red phase' and 'yellow phase' with the yellows looking more like a typical red-footed, but with the dark plastron.

I have not seen any documentation about ID'ing the races by head scute patterns, and would love to know more about that.

Finally- why did you ask about a secondary row of marginals?

Thanks!

(Here is what I have learned about Brazilians so far... https://sites.google.com/site/tortoiselibrary/red-foots/red-footed--cherry-head )

 

[tortadise]

I totally agree on the "dwarf" statement. I typically don't try to elaborate on the reality of the dwarf brazilians. I agree 100% on the Genetic abnormalities. I just try not to leur a huge debate as sometimes happens quite a bit here. I was merely seeing if the secondary marginals were present which is a recurring sighting I see in Bolivians, not all of them but a good amount. Some of mine have a secondary marginal. I'm not certain if it's a genetic or incubation mishap. But that's one way I an identify some of mine as well as some that have been at trade shows. It's very hard to see by photo but very present in visual identifications.

Maybe I am the first to identify with scale patterns. It's a broad identification but in my knowing of different country locale of specimens I acquired years ago they do tend to portray a variance in locale but not in species differences.

 

[1208jen]

He is beautiful. I'm too new to comment on what I think he is, but he is a really pretty tortoise!!

 

[allegraf]

I agree with Kelly, the scale pattern on the head does not look like a Brazilian, contrary to everything else hinting towards Brazilian. As to what it does look like, I will defer to others with more experience with the other types of RF.

 

[N2TORTS]

OH NO ...... it's a HYBRID!.....

Huslter' be careful ....get ready here they come .... ....


Great looking tort~
Looks like ,,,, 1/2 columbian 1/2 cherry! ( dont ya think ? )
With the 3.9.21 I have right now ....12 are adults, and I do have some odd color combos ...fire orange/ Red as opposed to the dark reds often seen. Black ...very lil red with super dark black skin and carapace/plastron markings. Even a female who has a pink nose. High marbled , almost pure black plastron ( instead of the marbling)and of course the super red guys, but nothing as unique as that guy! .... I just love it!

JD~
PS. Reminds me of the redfoot I have with the role reversal too.....
pure yellow head ,yellow marbling carapace....one way looks like a cherry the other view .. looks like a RF

 

[Madkins007]

Kelly- cool! Some follow-up questions if I may...

1. Second row of marginals- do they usually occur above or below the row that generally flares out a bit? Seems to me I saw something somewhere about this... could it have been something like 'inframarginals'? For the life of me I cannot recall where I saw this.

2. Head scalation pattern- it would be so great if there was some sort of scale key we could use. Would you have enough photos, etc. to work with someone (me! me! me!) to try to reconstruct or codify this? I know there is a lot of variation in head scales, but if there is some sort of pattern that holds even some consistency, it would help I would think.

 

[N2TORTS]

consistency? .....Heck I just posted 4 Brazilians with 4 different types of head/scale colors, I doubt someone could prove consistent scale/patterns and head coloring on this species. If so , I too would like to be hip to this insight on info . Where the heck do you guys come up with such accurate info?
Intriguing minds want to know .....

 

[Hustler]

I love you guys.......
I am very happy with him either way
he is a bit diffrent than his cherryhead roommate but with that marbeling Im gonna try and breed em either way..... First of either ive seen up here so I hope it isnt looked down upon sub species or sub sub species lol
I cant wait to see what you guys cook up with regards to more indepth redfoot charts and IDs and its awesome you guys are on the frontlines of it all in the captive enviroment.
Thanks for all your feedback and Know Im always creeping your guys posts for info

 

[EricIvins]

I love you guys.......
I am very happy with him either way
he is a bit diffrent than his cherryhead roommate but with that marbeling Im gonna try and breed em either way..... First of either ive seen up here so I hope it isnt looked down upon sub species or sub sub species lol
I cant wait to see what you guys cook up with regards to more indepth redfoot charts and IDs and its awesome you guys are on the frontlines of it all in the captive enviroment.
Thanks for all your feedback and Know Im always creeping your guys posts for info

If you do breed them, I wouldn't lable them a Cherryheads.......I can post all sorts of different pictures, but I'll save it at this point.....

I will say that the animal has Northern lineage somewhere in the woodpile......If one thing is consistent with all the Brazilian animals I've had ( All descending from Brazilian Imports brought in between the early-mid 90's ), it is the large head plates that each animal has. Another thing is the spurs - They look awfully small - You'll find populations of Northerns with the same size spur - Where a Cherryhead, whether male or female, will always have spurs 2 or 3x the size of a normal leg scale........

 

[N2TORTS]

I love you guys.......
I am very happy with him either way
he is a bit diffrent than his cherryhead roommate but with that marbeling Im gonna try and breed em either way..... First of either ive seen up here so I hope it isnt looked down upon sub species or sub sub species lol
I cant wait to see what you guys cook up with regards to more indepth redfoot charts and IDs and its awesome you guys are on the frontlines of it all in the captive enviroment.
Thanks for all your feedback and Know Im always creeping your guys posts for info

I will say that the animal has Northern lineage somewhere in the woodpile......If one thing is consistent with all the Brazilian animals I've had ( All descending from Brazilian Imports brought in between the early-mid 90's ), it is the large head plates that each animal has. Another thing is the spurs - They look awfully small - You'll find populations of Northerns with the same size spur - Where a Cherryhead, whether male or female, will always have spurs 2 or 3x the size of a normal leg scale........

I would totally agree with that .....thanks Eric!

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

Beautiful tortoise!

 

[tortadise]

Kelly- cool! Some follow-up questions if I may...

1. Second row of marginals- do they usually occur above or below the row that generally flares out a bit? Seems to me I saw something somewhere about this... could it have been something like 'inframarginals'? For the life of me I cannot recall where I saw this.

2. Head scalation pattern- it would be so great if there was some sort of scale key we could use. Would you have enough photos, etc. to work with someone (me! me! me!) to try to reconstruct or codify this? I know there is a lot of variation in head scales, but if there is some sort of pattern that holds even some consistency, it would help I would think.

Yes. They do seem to be infrarginals occurring just below the carapace flares and starting the plastron. I would love to have a consistent identification utilizing the head scales. But as so many variations like JD said an others redfoots can vary WIDELY.

An no JD I'm not gonna say its a hybrid. Unfortunately I do have to say with a lot of redfoots, we have discussed in the hybrid threads that there is real no knowledge of lineage and there probably are a vast amount of related bloodlined produced redfoots out there. Could it be just that redfoots are an oddity of scale and cor variation. Perhaps. Either way there is not certainty of telling.

I do think this guy is awesome. He has a very unique look.

Mark I posted some photos on my known locale redfoots a few days ago. The scales do posses a big variety in differences. I'm still researching the theory of the scales. Kinda have to wait till the hold back babies get bigger and present a defined scale pattern. They tend to be impossible to tell apart when babies. Also this may only work with my animals because it's unique to their bloodline and gene patterns, maybe the scales are like a finger print. Who knows.