Brazilian Clads in the United States Discussion/Inquire

[Elohi]

Oh forgot to ask to see his carapace. Do you have a recent picture?


Elohi(Earth)

 

[tortadise]

Oh forgot to ask to see his carapace. Do you have a recent picture?


Elohi(Earth)

You know I could of sworn I took a new one last night but don't have it. Just a bunch of Egyptians. I'll get one for yah.

 

[tortadise]

i really feel disgusted to read that, thats truly a shame.

Yep. Humans are barbaric to say the least

 

[allegraf]

Kelly,

I have long discussed this issue with CDMay. His girls are XXL! I have some interesting diversity within my herd. I have two girls that seem to be part of the larger "type" of Brazilian. The first did not reach sexual maturity (egg/anal opening large enough to safely pass an egg) until she was 12+" and the second one is still not mature as yet at 12". Then I have a female that reached maturity at 8 1/4". The majority of my girls matured around 9- 10". Here is the original posting- http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/what-i-consider-sexually-mature.24238/

Likewise I have a little pisser of a male that I have not measured recently, but he is noticeably smaller than all my other males and even most of the girls. He is definitely fully mature with a deep plastron.

Allegra

 

[tortadise]

Kelly,

I have long discussed this issue with CDMay. His girls are XXL! I have some interesting diversity within my herd. I have two girls that seem to be part of the larger "type" of Brazilian. The first did not reach sexual maturity (egg/anal opening large enough to safely pass an egg) until she was 12+" and the second one is still not mature as yet at 12". Then I have a female that reached maturity at 8 1/4". The majority of my girls matured around 9- 10". Here is the original posting- http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/what-i-consider-sexually-mature.24238/

Likewise I have a little pisser of a male that I have not measured recently, but he is noticeably smaller than all my other males and even most of the girls. He is definitely fully mature with a deep plastron.

Allegra

Sounds like were all screwed. Lol I wish I had done more collecting of Brazilian clads like I did with my other Redfoots, I suppose I could just try and find a smaller female that hopefully the seller will be honest and not sell me a "dwarf, deficient" animal.

 

[Madkins007]

I love and support the idea of trying hard to keep lines as pure as we reasonably can, at least until we know enough to aim for specific, beneficial (to us and them) hybrids- which would then be properly identified as such. (I'm not holding my breath.)

The problems are massive gaps in our knowledge. Studies have been done on the DNA to find 5 groupings, as Tortadise mentioned, but we really don't know much about local distribution, internal divisions withing the groupings, where the dealers get them from, and more. There are a few large, relatively well-known farms in Brazil (some even have pretty nice websites) that collect, breed, and sell them in bulk. We may know that our torts came from one farm or another (such as the Santa Rita Tortoise Farm), but that does not tell us anything about where they got them, or got the original stock.

Some farms skirt a lot of laws (and I AM NOT trying to cast aspersions on any specific farm) by having locals harvest wild animals and dumping them in the farm to be sold later as being from a 'properly documented breeding facility'. Without trying to get into any discussions of legality or morality, this makes the origin of animals really, really muddy. A farm may be squeaky clean now, but it still makes it murky as to where the original stock came from.

Dwarfs and giants have both been mentioned, and they present an interesting case. The Eastern or Brazilian redfoot (brightly colored individuals of these group are called 'cherry-heads', but there are also 'yellow-headed' versions- not to be confused with yellowfoot tortoises) hits sexual maturity at a younger age/smaller size than most of the Northern types do. This has caused a lot of people to assume that they will ALWAYS be smaller, and as many people can attest, most cherries are pretty close to the northern group or maybe even a tad bigger. Some have stayed small, but no one really knows if it is genetic, diet, climate, or what. Many, probably most, of the torts sold as 'dwarfs' eventually reach full size.

The giants are a different story. We absolutely know they exist, but they do not seem to cluster in the wild in a way that suggests they are a specific sub-group. Theories about genetics, diet, and climate have been presented, but one other interesting possibility has also been put forth- lifespan. Tortoises, along with many other reptiles, grow older, but do not really 'age' in the way mammals do. In general, they just keep growing- more slowly, sure- all their lives. Giants may just be old torts that had previously avoided capture. (Some huge zoo or captive animals may be really old, or just very well-fed AND somewhat old.)

(This is all based on "South American Tortoises", Pritchard's various books, and a lot of articles you can find on the Library. Sadly, not on personal field experience or close buddies in Brazil, etc.)

So... in my mind, while we want to stay as true as we can to the bloodlines, we can realistically only go so far.

(And, man- isn't it weird we can talk like this about tortoises or dogs, but not people???)

 

[Bryan]

he put a hole in the tortoises shell? wtff is that, wow people never seize to amaze with the dumb, and disgusting things they doo

Not the person that I got him from, but somewhere along the line before he got it a small hole was drilled in his plastron. That definitely sounds like a wild caught animal to me. He is the smallest of my mature males and he is very high energy and very fast compared to my other Brazilian animals.

 

[tortadise]

Oh forgot to ask to see his carapace. Do you have a recent picture?


Elohi(Earth)

Here yah go.

 

[paver1960]

Can anyone comment on the origins of all yellow redfoots? I recently acquired 2.2 all yellow redfoots. They're smaller in size than typical redfoots, more cherry head in size. I’ve heard all yellows are a clad from Venezuela.

Craig

 

[tortadise]

Can anyone comment on the origins of all yellow redfoots? I recently acquired 2.2 all yellow redfoots. They're smaller in size than typical redfoots, more cherry head in size. I’ve heard all yellows are a clad from Venezuela.

Craig

Yellows mostly come from Guyana some parts of Suriname, Brazil, Columbia and Peru in the Guyana shield

 

[cdmay]

I love and support the idea of trying hard to keep lines as pure as we reasonably can, at least until we know enough to aim for specific, beneficial (to us and them) hybrids- which would then be properly identified as such. (I'm not holding my breath.)

The problems are massive gaps in our knowledge. Studies have been done on the DNA to find 5 groupings, as Tortadise mentioned, but we really don't know much about local distribution, internal divisions withing the groupings, where the dealers get them from, and more. There are a few large, relatively well-known farms in Brazil (some even have pretty nice websites) that collect, breed, and sell them in bulk. We may know that our torts came from one farm or another (such as the Santa Rita Tortoise Farm), but that does not tell us anything about where they got them, or got the original stock.

Some farms skirt a lot of laws (and I AM NOT trying to cast aspersions on any specific farm) by having locals harvest wild animals and dumping them in the farm to be sold later as being from a 'properly documented breeding facility'. Without trying to get into any discussions of legality or morality, this makes the origin of animals really, really muddy. A farm may be squeaky clean now, but it still makes it murky as to where the original stock came from.

Dwarfs and giants have both been mentioned, and they present an interesting case. The Eastern or Brazilian redfoot (brightly colored individuals of these group are called 'cherry-heads', but there are also 'yellow-headed' versions- not to be confused with yellowfoot tortoises) hits sexual maturity at a younger age/smaller size than most of the Northern types do. This has caused a lot of people to assume that they will ALWAYS be smaller, and as many people can attest, most cherries are pretty close to the northern group or maybe even a tad bigger. Some have stayed small, but no one really knows if it is genetic, diet, climate, or what. Many, probably most, of the torts sold as 'dwarfs' eventually reach full size.

The giants are a different story. We absolutely know they exist, but they do not seem to cluster in the wild in a way that suggests they are a specific sub-group. Theories about genetics, diet, and climate have been presented, but one other interesting possibility has also been put forth- lifespan. Tortoises, along with many other reptiles, grow older, but do not really 'age' in the way mammals do. In general, they just keep growing- more slowly, sure- all their lives. Giants may just be old torts that had previously avoided capture. (Some huge zoo or captive animals may be really old, or just very well-fed AND somewhat old.)

(This is all based on "South American Tortoises", Pritchard's various books, and a lot of articles you can find on the Library. Sadly, not on personal field experience or close buddies in Brazil, etc.)

So... in my mind, while we want to stay as true as we can to the bloodlines, we can realistically only go so far.

(And, man- isn't it weird we can talk like this about tortoises or dogs, but not people???)

I tend to agree with Madkins statements. The fact is that here in the United States the vast majority of our animals were imported for the pet trade--and not collected by someone who provides us with exact localities. So we have to speculate and generalize from afar.
It IS true that many of us have established good relationships with importers who can give us a pretty good idea about the animals they are getting from South America, but even here there can be errors--anyone remember the early 1980s when Blue Ribbon Pet Farm was telling buyers that the original 'cherry-heads' came from Paraguay, when they knew they were actually from Brazil???
Or the dealer in Miami in the late 1970s and 80s (whos initials were E.C.) selling red-footed and yellow-footed tortoises from 'Guyana' when he knew his collectors down in South America were gathering the tortoises from far into Brazil and Surinam? Not that there would be a huge difference in the genetics of those animals but still, it wasn't accurate information.
These inaccuracies and misinformation leads to what we often have now...some keepers insisting that their cherry-heads are 'pure Paraguayan' because of the original Pet Farm storyline. Or, as in a case I know of down here in Florida, a well known breeder insists that some of his cherry-heads are 'pure Bolivian'-- because the guy he bought them from said they 'looked like it'... HUH?! So now the people who buy neonates from these people will continue to proliferate things that are simply untrue. Trying to correct all of this becomes profoundly frustrating.

Nowadays there are fairly reputable 'farms' that do sell progeny (along with some juvenile wild caught tortoises) from what they claim are locally collected adults. These tortoises are pretty uniform in appearance and I have no reason to think the farmers went to the trouble of gathering tortoises from distant regions just to set up their breeding stock. The Colombian red-foots resemble other Colombian red-foots imported in past decades and the Brazilian 'cherry-heads' from farms more or less all look about the same too. Of course there are individuals that might be odd looking but that happens in every population.

Still, as Madkins pointed out, there are huge gaps in our knowledge due to the simple reality that there have not been any really comprehensive population studies. And even some of the ones we have are flawed: For example Peter Pritchard, in his classic book, The Turtles of Venezuela based much of his information about red-footed tortoises on what the animal dealers in Miami told him---and not the actual facts. He readily admits this in conversation, BTW.

When it comes to the idea of tortoise breeders here in the United States (and elsewhere) keeping their distinctive groups isolated, this is simply common sense. Sooner or later, the cherry-heads will be described as their own sub-species or species. Same goes for the yellow and pumpkin colored Colombian tortoises, the giant Chaco red-foots, and so on. They are unique populations and will eventually be formally recognized as such.
Any experienced keeper can tell that a cherry-head--regardless of size--is a very different tortoise from the imported Guyana/Surinam animals. Same goes for the other well known forms we have being bred here now.
For me the situation with red-footed tortoises is the same one that exists (or existed years ago) with imported boa constrictors. Just from a visual standpoint alone, even a novice keeper could tell that a Mexican boa didn't look like a Peruvian red-tail boa, and imported Bolivian boas were also unique, and on and on. But in their mania to spread all of the albino and other mutations around (and make $$), they bred wildly different populations of captive boa constrictors together. Now the vast majority of captive boas are a mixed up hodge-podge of different bloodlines and mutations with none looking like anything actually found in the wild.
What a shame.

 

[N2TORTS]

The last 14 years I spent collecting “Brazilian CherryHeads” with probably owning upwards over 100 animals. After a few years of breeding, and selecting gene lines and best producers, I have narrowed the Herd down to a 4.9 group of adults as my main breeding group. The smallest being 8” (sub adult) and the largest 14” with most in the 12” range. As mentioned from some other very well versed folks on this species, one day it might be recognized as its own species. For myself, I have found any of the females who do produce viable clutches are in the 10”-12” range with the latter being the best. True you will see males “mature faster” as small as 6” running around trying to mount a female, but I believe these are born traits already “built in” as I have yet to see my smaller male show any success at producing fertile sperm- if any . I have yet to have any of my own animals produce viable clutches with any animals less than 10”in size with this species. Nevertheless I do keep the Cherry Heads apart from the Redfoots and have for many years thus, no guess work or mixed offspring. The “Rudolph nose”, large leg spur, Marbled Carapace and Plastron all “visual signs of the so called norm” but those attributes even have little tweaks in them. Variance in colors, and the so called Dwarf size (although I myself have never produced any animals with a so called dwarf – small) do exist, although I would be safe to say the average size for adults is 10-12”. I have 2 freaks myself with in the Cherry Herd- Both a male and a female who are well over the 12" mark.
Here is just some shots of a few in the herd to show some variability in size and color within this species.
Few Of the Females –

[URL=http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Females/SZ2_zpsc554c1bc.jpg.html]
[URL=http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Females/SZ6_zpsb5bf6085.jpg.html]
[URL=http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Females/June2014i_zpsa8c90b55.jpg.html]
Rudy My “Black Cherry”….
[URL=http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Females/Ac3_zpsd14a22eb.jpg.html]
[URL=http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Females/391_zps6dbe96fe.jpg.html]
[URL=http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Females/cw5_zpsdb5ced9e.jpg.html]
Peaches next to Queen Liz’
[URL=http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Females/CHRYSIZEXPb_zps90427f1b.jpg.html]
[URL=http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Females/CHRYSIZEXPc_zpsc8c2e265.jpg.html]
[URL=http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Females/CHRYSIZEXPa_zpsf7f73da4.jpg.html]
[URL=http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Females/new501_zpsf674340a.jpg.html]

[URL=http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Females/red19_zps9bcbe9b1.jpg.html]
[URL=http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Females/CLMOMMA1_zpsc84b9e6e.jpg.html]
[URL=http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Females/BBL8_zpsdd2c8355.jpg.html]
[URL=http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Females/AQ12_zps8c30fb82.jpg.html]
[URL=http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Females/CC91_zps5ae739aa.jpg.html] [/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]

 

[N2TORTS]

Now we are all familiar with hearing a marbled plastron ……

[URL=http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Adults%20Male/RFMALE_zps44c867e2.jpg.html]

[URL=http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Adults%20Male/RFMALE3_zps26d7bc98.jpg.html]
But not always the case…..my longest owned and second largest Male …..
[URL=http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Adults%20Male/ALPHAMALECHERRYBOTTOM-1_zpsb87fd629.jpg.html]
Males-
Oscar The Giant - …next to a 6”
[URL=http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Adults%20Male/size3_zpsf734e71b.jpg.html]
Now next to a 12”
[URL=http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Adults%20Male/NEWmalesize_zps38b3f8d5.jpg.html]
[URL=http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Adults%20Male/Noscar_zps45c1cba3.jpg.html]
[URL=http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Adults%20Male/q8_zps7070f529.jpg.html] [/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]

 

[N2TORTS]

[URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Adults%20Male/RFMALE_zps44c867e2.jpg.html'] [/URL]
[URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Adults%20Male/ROSSOBUD_zps2d336c50.jpg.html'][URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Adults%20Male/RFMALE_zps44c867e2.jpg.html'][URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Adults%20Male/NOVMAR_zpseab7573d.jpg.html'] [/URL][/URL]
[URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Adults%20Male/RFMALE_zps44c867e2.jpg.html'][URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Adults%20Male/ROSSOBUD_zps2d336c50.jpg.html'][URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Adults%20Male/RFMALE_zps44c867e2.jpg.html'][URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Adults%20Male/NOVMAR_zpseab7573d.jpg.html'][URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Adults%20Male/fool361_zps080b2639.jpg.html'] [/URL][/URL][/URL]
[URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Adults%20Male/RFMALE_zps44c867e2.jpg.html'][URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Adults%20Male/NOVMAR_zpseab7573d.jpg.html'][URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Adults%20Male/ROSSOBUD_zps2d336c50.jpg.html'][URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Adults%20Male/RFMALE_zps44c867e2.jpg.html'][URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Adults%20Male/NOVMAR_zpseab7573d.jpg.html'][URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Adults%20Male/fool361_zps080b2639.jpg.html'][URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Adults%20Male/Chgrp141_zps061d966d.jpg.html'] [/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]

 

[N2TORTS]

[URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Adults%20Male/ADT24_zpsf79fc169.jpg.html'] [/URL]
[URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Adults%20Male/AX13_zpscf279291.jpg.html'][URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Adults%20Male/ADT24_zpsf79fc169.jpg.html'][URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Females/t20_zpse76e4956.jpg.html'] [/URL][/URL]
[URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Adults%20Male/ADT24_zpsf79fc169.jpg.html'][URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Adults%20Male/AX13_zpscf279291.jpg.html'][URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Adults%20Male/ADT24_zpsf79fc169.jpg.html'][URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Females/t20_zpse76e4956.jpg.html'][URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Females/tub17_zps5225a6f4.jpg.html'] [/URL][/URL][/URL]
[URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Adults%20Male/ADT24_zpsf79fc169.jpg.html'][URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Females/t20_zpse76e4956.jpg.html'][URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Adults%20Male/AX13_zpscf279291.jpg.html'][URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Adults%20Male/ADT24_zpsf79fc169.jpg.html'][URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Females/t20_zpse76e4956.jpg.html'][URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Females/tub17_zps5225a6f4.jpg.html'][URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Females/ultra11_zpsb265975c.jpg.html'] [/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]
[URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Adults%20Male/ADT24_zpsf79fc169.jpg.html'][URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Females/t20_zpse76e4956.jpg.html'][URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Females/tub17_zps5225a6f4.jpg.html'][URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Adults%20Male/AX13_zpscf279291.jpg.html'][URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Adults%20Male/ADT24_zpsf79fc169.jpg.html'][URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Females/t20_zpse76e4956.jpg.html'][URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Females/tub17_zps5225a6f4.jpg.html'][URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/CherryHead%20Females/ultra11_zpsb265975c.jpg.html'][URL='http://s755.photobucket.com/user/N2TORTS/media/2014/Cove3-23-2014_zps22d48a0d.jpg.html'] [/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]

 

[Bryan]

I wonder how much of the dwarfism is due to being collected in the wild in less than ideal conditions or being farm raised under less than ideal conditions in terms of space, food, etc. It is not uncommon in some fish species to have stunted or dwarf specimens due to environmental factors. Unless there are specific defining characteristics other than size I would think that it'd be very hard to distinguish a dwarf animal from a "normal" animal outside of possibly looking at the animals old growth lines.

 

[cdmay]

Good points from both N2TORTS and Bryan.
First, Bryan...YES! Many of the first generation imported cherry-heads have remained on the small side. Many of those females have yet to grow past 9 inches or so, even though they lay good eggs. This might be called environmental dwarfism.
But the second and third generation animals appear to be getting larger and larger--or at least more 'normal' sized for red-footed tortoises.

Second, N2TORTS...some killer looking animals there! But even though you have cherry picked (sorry) for color and marbled pattern, they still are readily recognizable as what they are. In other words, although extremely colored, they are still cherry-heads.
Two of my long term females are over 12 inches and one is nearing 15 inches. My long term male is still only 9.5 inches though.

 

[N2TORTS]

Carl….thanks for the kuddo’s on the Cherries. As you being one of the most well versed and experienced keepers' with this species, I wanted to say thank you for all the years of sharing your information, advice and comments with myself, the forum and general public as a whole. The world seems a whole lot better when ya add a little color to it ……
I agree definitely identifiable as Cherry Heads .... , but we all have seen several RF's mislabeled as cherry heads at Pet Shops , online , even Herp shows. I 'am hoping that maybe this thread could help some new folks who are interested in a wonderful tortoise.

Thanks again ....and to you too, Mr. Kelly for all your wonderful shares and thread ideas.
JD~

PS: I liked the “Cherry” Pun ……..

 

[Bryan]

Good points from both N2TORTS and Bryan.
First, Bryan...YES! Many of the first generation imported cherry-heads have remained on the small side. Many of those females have yet to grow past 9 inches or so, even though they lay good eggs. This might be called environmental dwarfism.
But the second and third generation animals appear to be getting larger and larger--or at least more 'normal' sized for red-footed tortoises.

Second, N2TORTS...some killer looking animals there! But even though you have cherry picked (sorry) for color and marbled pattern, they still are readily recognizable as what they are. In other words, although extremely colored, they are still cherry-heads.
Two of my long term females are over 12 inches and one is nearing 15 inches. My long term male is still only 9.5 inches though.

I would assume that as long as the offspring of the smaller animals grow at a similar rate to average sized animals that environmental dwarfism would make the most sense although it's hardly impossible for there to be a few small sub populations that are smaller than normal on average. One of these days you need to post another pic of Moe mounting Darth! The little engine that could and still does! Darth the magnificent continues to push the envelope in terms of just how large Brazilian's can get! Like JD I'd also like to thank you for sharing your experiences and knowledge with all of those that are willing to listen and show these animals the respect that they deserve!