Northern or Brazilian

Anyfoot

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We see a lot of posts asking if their baby redfoot is a Brazilian(aka cherryhead) or a northern. It's hard at to distinguish the 2 at such a young age and on top of that there are a lot of mutts in private collections making it even more difficult.
I think mine are probably one of the easiest to distinguish at such a young age and thought we could start a thread for a general discussion on this subject. Feel free to add anything to this post. I'd be interested in seeing some babies that the breeders know for a fact what they are. (Especially mutts).
From what I'm seeing my Brazilians have a longer more torpedo shaped nose, plastrons start with darker areas around the scute borders and these dark areas spread as they grow creating a dark plastron. They also seem to have the single elbow scale that stands proud.(I'm not convinced this is unique to the Brazilian though) with less scales on the legs than the northerns. My Brazilians have red scales.

My northerns have a short blunt nose, plastrons start out either totally yellowish but some are darker at the scute borders. Not as dark as the Brazilians though. As they grow these darker patches turn yellowish except where the eggsack was. This area tends to stay dark. Legs usually have more scales than the Brazilians and without the 2 prominent elbow scales. My northerns start out with dark orange and yellow scales that get lighter in colour as they grow. Sometimes they have reddish scales that look very similar to Brazilians but as they age the reds turn to an orange colour.

This one is a 10 month old Brazilian

IMG_2316.JPG IMG_2317.JPG IMG_2318.JPG IMG_2319.JPG IMG_2320.JPG IMG_2321.JPG

This one is a 8 month old northern.
IMG_2324.JPG IMG_2325.JPG IMG_2326.JPG IMG_2327.JPG IMG_2330.JPG IMG_2328.JPG

This one is a 11 month old mutt. Female Brazilian and male northern parents.
IMG_2331.JPG IMG_2332.JPG IMG_2333.JPG IMG_2334.JPG IMG_2335.JPG
 

domalle

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We see a lot of posts asking if their baby redfoot is a Brazilian(aka cherryhead) or a northern. It's hard at to distinguish the 2 at such a young age and on top of that there are a lot of mutts in private collections making it even more difficult.
I think mine are probably one of the easiest to distinguish at such a young age and thought we could start a thread for a general discussion on this subject. Feel free to add anything to this post. I'd be interested in seeing some babies that the breeders know for a fact what they are. (Especially mutts).
From what I'm seeing my Brazilians have a longer more torpedo shaped nose, plastrons start with darker areas around the scute borders and these dark areas spread as they grow creating a dark plastron. They also seem to have the single elbow scale that stands proud.(I'm not convinced this is unique to the Brazilian though) with less scales on the legs than the northerns. My Brazilians have red scales.

My northerns have a short blunt nose, plastrons start out either totally yellowish but some are darker at the scute borders. Not as dark as the Brazilians though. As they grow these darker patches turn yellowish except where the eggsack was. This area tends to stay dark. Legs usually have more scales than the Brazilians and without the 2 prominent elbow scales. My northerns start out with dark orange and yellow scales that get lighter in colour as they grow. Sometimes they have reddish scales that look very similar to Brazilians but as they age the reds turn to an orange colour.

This one is a 10 month old Brazilian

View attachment 232770 View attachment 232771 View attachment 232772 View attachment 232773 View attachment 232774 View attachment 232775

This one is a 8 month old northern.
View attachment 232776 View attachment 232777 View attachment 232778 View attachment 232779 View attachment 232781 View attachment 232780

This one is a 11 month old mutt. Female Brazilian and male northern parents.
View attachment 232783 View attachment 232784 View attachment 232785 View attachment 232786 View attachment 232787


The use of the broad label 'Brazilian' as a specific identifier for the popular red-footed tortoises from SE Brazil commonly known as 'Cherryheads' may cause some confusion. While the two most common forms of red-footed tortoise in captivity currently are the two cited, other forms of redfoot are commonly found throughout the vast country of Brazil. While the Cherryhead redfoot form is limited strictly in occurrence to Brazil, strictly limiting the term 'Brazilian' to the Cherryhead form alone would be misleading.

The 'Brazilian' red-footed tortoise form in the Amazon region extends across Brazil to just enter Peru in the west and meets the general category and description of the continent's 'Northern' redfoot forms; large animals usually with dark markings often described as an 'airplane' or 'hourglass' figure on the mid-abdominal and femoral scutes of their otherwise plain light-colored plastrons. The Northern redfoot forms range from southernmost Panama in Central America to the South American countries of Peru (eastern), Colombia, Venezuela, Guyana, Suriname, French Guiana, Brazil, and the Caribbean islands to which they were introduced.

Another distinct and distinctive 'Brazilian' redfoot form is the Pantanal red-footed tortoise; large animals that occur in the tropical wetland region of southern Brazil just north of, or bordering on, the range of the similarly very large Chacoan redfoot forms in Bolivia, Paraguay and east, northeast and northwest Argentina. All of these animals, including the Pantanal wetland form, are very dark in color and all are adorned, except for the areolae, with nearly solid black plastrons, unlike the various northern forms.

The Cherryhead label is disdained by many because it was created as a marketing device when these animals, displaying an arresting array of colors not previously seen in red-footed tortoise imports, appeared on the scene in Florida from tortoise forms in Brazil, although their transit points and routes varied.

Despite the aversion for the commonly used 'Cherryhead' name, we are unfortunately probably stuck forever with the moniker. Carl May, a leading tortoise expert and Cherryhead aficionado (and despite @allegraf's feelings about this guy, I kinda like him), rightly observed from the very beginning that many, if not most, of these newly arrived cherryhead red-footed tortoises did not at all fit the bright cherry red colors implied by the assigned label but instead ranged into more muted corals, pinks and oranges as well. The more marbled, smaller-statured ones, in my experience, particularly so.
 
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domalle

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The 'Northern' redfoot in the middle set of pictures shows clearly the development of the dark plastral markings on the abdominal and femoral scutes of the classic northern redfoot form.

I have heard these northern plastral markings described a number of different ways, including the airplane and the hourglass figures. Pritchard's
Turtles of Venezuela, still the best source of information with clear and comparative photographs of the diverse redfoot forms (for all of South America,
not just Venezuela), characterizes the markings more accurately as a mid-abdominal diamond shape with a triangular figure on the femorals below.

I have seen dark cherryheads labeled 'black cherry' but while they were curious and compelling, they were relatively straightforward and seemed to fall within the normal range of variation in the standard cherryhead redfoot form.

We may have to come up with a new label for the very dark cherryheads in the first group of pictures. We can probably eliminate 'Blackheads' right away. As a marketing strategy label, it doesn't quite capture the imagination the way 'Cherryhead' did. And most likely wouldn't sell too well either.

Darkfoots? Coalheads? Coalfoots?
Anyway @Anyfoot, they are exceptional. Are they from the big female?
 

Anyfoot

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5 Year Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2014
Messages
6,309
Location (City and/or State)
UK Sheffield
The 'Northern' redfoot in the middle set of pictures shows clearly the development of the dark plastral markings on the abdominal and femoral scutes of the classic northern redfoot form.

I have heard these northern plastral markings described a number of different ways, including the airplane and the hourglass figures. Pritchard's
Turtles of Venezuela, still the best source of information with clear and comparative photographs of the diverse redfoot forms (for all of South America,
not just Venezuela), characterizes the markings more accurately as a mid-abdominal diamond shape with a triangular figure on the femorals below.

I have seen dark cherryheads labeled 'black cherry' but while they were curious and compelling, they were relatively straightforward and seemed to fall within the normal range of variation in the standard cherryhead redfoot form.

We may have to come up with a new label for the very dark cherryheads in the first group of pictures. We can probably eliminate 'Blackheads' right away. As a marketing strategy label, it doesn't quite capture the imagination the way 'Cherryhead' did. And most likely wouldn't sell too well either.

Darkfoots? Coalheads? Coalfoots?
Anyway @Anyfoot, they are exceptional. Are they from the big female?
@domalle
The last one which I'm certain is a mutt is from the big Brazilian 'Edna'.

The dark one is from 2 smaller darker Brazilians I have. You've seen them I think. Definitely the male anyway. They are both small(9" SCL) and have near full black plastrons. I'm convinced Edna is not from the same local as my 2 small darker Brazilians.

SELL THEM:eek:. I'm only incubating for my own curiosities, and I'm going to struggle parting with what I have already hatched, I have the discussion of getting rid of some almost weekly with Dawn :p
At the moment I have a clutch of 7 incubating. About once a wk I'm destroying a newly laid clutch.
I would like to move home to somewhere with bigger gardens so I can split into 3 groups, Brazilians, Northerns and Mutts.
Out of what I have I want to keep the 2 small dark Brazilians breeding when I've split them up, I can put Edna in with them just as a pen mate. This is this yrs task.
 
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