Identification Manouria emys / phayrei

[Yvonne G]

That shape looks emys emys to me from the back, but phayrei from the front. A mystery indeed.

 

[johndesiles]

C est Impressionnant , j ai des Manouria emys emys que je reproduit et celle la n a absolument rien a voir avec elle
La couleur , l apparence plus costaud , la forme de la carapace et même la suture pectorale . je suis dubitatif
Merci Yvonne pour ton avis

(Google translation: C is Awesome, I have Manouria emys emys I reproduced and that did absolutely nothing to do with it
Color, beefier appearance, the shape of the carapace and even pectoral suture. I'm skeptical
Yvonne thank you for your opinion)

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

I didn't answer for a while trying to give others a chance at it. I still think it is either emys emys, or intergrade between the two. In my opinion, it is NOT phayrei.

Yvonne, you are right, the others are wrong, case closed. No further opinions needed.

Did I say you are 'Right Yvonne'. You are correct.

phayrei have a junction of the pectoral scutes that is long.

See http://www.tortoise.org/archives/manouria.html for images and description.

Of course these two are subspecies, so integration of them are not really hybrids. Just less discrete subspecies based on gross external morphology. It's a very blurry thing, you know?

 

[johndesiles]

J ai une phayrei , qui est exatement de la meme couleure , la meme forme de carapace , l aspect costaud c est pour sa que je doute
et qui me provient du meme lot

J have a phayrei, which is exatement of the same couleure, the same shape of shell, l sturdy aspect c is for his(her,its) that I doubt and which(who) results me from the same prize(lot)

 

[emystiong]

Since the topic suggest , I will post something related as well .



So mine a M.e.e or M.e.p or M.e.? ( intergrade )

Cheers

 

[johndesiles]

The photo which you show is exactly as the plastron of my tortoise!!
What sort(species) involves he(it)??
Thank you emystiong of your help(assistant)

 

[emystiong]

The photo which you show is exactly as the plastron of my tortoise!!
What sort(species) involves he(it)??
Thank you emystiong of your help(assistant)

Getting excited , let's wait for a few more views before I input more .

Cheers

 

[Benjamin]

The photo which you show is exactly as the plastron of my tortoise!!
What sort(species) involves he(it)??
Thank you emystiong of your help(assistant)

Getting excited , let's wait for a few more views before I input more .

Cheers

Very interesting indeed. I would guess yours, emystiong, is an interegrade of the two.

 

[Yvonne G]

That would be my guess also.

 

[emystiong]

Sorry to disappoint - that girl is a local WC back in 2006 or 2007 ( local as in borneo island ) no known Mep range nearby . So chances of intergrade is nil , maybe just a genetic or diet or some other factor In between !

But she is the only 1 that has it ( out of the so many I came across or own ) and I can say not genetic because none of her progeny has it .

Cheers

 

[emystiong]

She is on the left . Looks any different on the carapace , face and overall ?

Cheers

 

[johndesiles]

It is strange yours has the color of an emys emys and mine has everything of a phayrei! Nevertheless they have the same plastron!

 

[emysbreeder]

There are many variations of the pectoral scutes in both ssp. After seeing hundreds and even growing them up "just to see". If they touch in one spot on the midline or in two places, it doesn't mean anything, its phayrei. They can almost touch or touch on one side, still phayrei. The pectoral scute version of telling them apart is not 100% accurate. M.emys emys normally has a greenish color, BUT not always. If the tortoise is an adult,phayrei has a much more pronounced upper beak. M.e.e are close to even.* (taxon changes for Manouria emys. in press) Again this is for adults and there are variations. Of the two phayrei obtains a much larger adult size....but, a small male phayrei and a big female emys emys could be the same adult size! The two subspecies have an over lapping range in Thailand and Burma (newly discovered* McKascle per. comm. 2014) There is not a named midland subspecies but I suspect one. In captive collections in the USA there are no phayrei represented from their northern range north of Burma. No Manouria have been exported out of India since before 1974. They were not smuggled out of India like Star and other tortoises for the Pet trade. There was simply no market for them. So very few people in the USA bred them only a few "intergrades" reported. We know of Yvonne's and the USA/AZA Stud book reports "hybrids" (their word") intergrades in the 90's. (a Manouria Hybred would M.e. X M. impressa) I don't think many people at all ever bred them intentionally but as we can tell by the discussion we are having there has always been some confusion about them. A Hybrid/intergrade would be my last desperate guess if there was some question about it. Now if this isn't confusing enough their common name is really a mess. Phayrei babies are born a light walnut brown then turn a slate black in about a year, while emys emys are born a very light power gray and turn Brown/greenish tint. in weeks to months. Once again there is a lot of variation in color/shades but that's the way it is here 98% of the time with many breeders of both ssp. One more little diddy M.e.e have a lot of white toes and white splotches of white skin under their neck and inside leg sockets. I'm working on a paper with David Lee on the Manouria Taxonomy. I am getting some good information from Lonnie Mc Kascle in Burma with the TSA and hoping to get some blood work from the field confirming this subject. Thanks Vic

 

[emysbreeder]

Photo mystérieuse

Photo mystérieuse

(Google translator: Photo Mysterious)

johndesiles....A very nice adult phayrei. Note: over hanging upper Mandible* (Morgan Lee in press) and the 5th. Central Carapace not worn down. (does not always hold up for several reasons)
(Google translator: Photo Mysterious)[/QUO

 

[Yvonne G]

Vic: If no one has ever said it, let me say it, "I'm so very glad to have you as a member here on the Forum!!!" Thank you for your insight.

 

[emysbreeder]

Vic: If no one has ever said it, let me say it, "I'm so very glad to have you as a member here on the Forum!!!" Thank you for your insight.

Since the topic suggest , I will post something related as well .

View attachment 63998

So mine a M.e.e or M.e.p or M.e.? ( intergrade )

Cheers[/QUOTE phayrei Vic Morgan

 

[emysbreeder]

Sorry to disappoint - that girl is a local WC back in 2006 or 2007 ( local as in borneo island ) no known Mep range nearby . So chances of intergrade is nil , maybe just a genetic or diet or some other factor In between !

But she is the only 1 that has it ( out of the so many I came across or own ) and I can say not genetic because none of her progeny has it .

Cheers

Did you get them in a market place or near a market but loose in nature. emysbreeder

 

[johndesiles]

Hello emysbreeder
Thank you very much for your message, you thus think that my mysterious manouria is good Phayrei c is good ca?
This you want I can give you complementary(additional) photos
Thank you has you, you are me of a big help

 

[bouaboua]

Very educational read. Thank you all.

 

[johndesiles]

Hello
I am French, and in spite of the translator it n is not evident to understand(include) for me.
The translation of emysbreeders indeed says that my manouria is indeed a phayrei c is that?
Thank you for otre understanding help and
Jonathan