I have a sick baby Sulcata and I'm not sure what to do!

[Gary/Daisy]

Hello everyone,

I have two baby sulcata tortoises named Daisy and Gary. They're both about six-eight months old. About two weeks ago, I noticed Gary's shell was getting quite soft compared to Daisy's, so we took him to the vet. The vet diagnosed him with calcium deficiency, an upper respiratory infection, and parasites. I was devastated to hear that his chances are 50/50, but we're doing everything we can to help him. We've been giving him daily calcium and we've been force feeding him daily with food the vet gave us. He's finished with his medications regarding the infection and parasites, but he's not seeming to get better. If anything, maybe worse. Our other one, Daisy, on the other hand is as lively as ever, so we know she's alright. We've been putting calcium on their food daily and giving them daily soaks.

Now, onto our concerns about Gary. It's been over two weeks since his vet visit, and he's yet to eat anything besides when we force feed him. He has no interest in food, even if we put him in it. He sleeps all the time and he's not very alert. He almost acts like he's blind. He has no response to sight at all and it seems as though he doesn't want to or is incapable of opening his eyes. If he does open them, which usually only happens when we soak him, it's not all the way and he still acts as though he can barely see anything. What should we do? What could be causing this?

Info on their habitat: We have both of the tortoises in a fifty gallon stock stank. The tank is filled with a mix of cypress mulch and organic soil. They have two different hides, a rock in their basking area, which is usually at about 110-120 degrees, and they have some succulent plants in there. The center of the tank is the basking area, so outside of the basking area, it's about 80 degrees. The tank is open, so it's difficult to keep the whole area hot. We keep a red night light on to make sure it's still semi warm at night, but we keep our house cold, so it can get down to 65 degrees. They have two different UV lights. One is a thirty inch, 17 watt light, and the other one I'm not sure about. It's not a standard coiled bulb, but it's one of those bulbs that wraps in almost a narrow, long "U" shape and there's two of them on one bulb.

Any information is greatly appreciated!!

 

[motero]

Bulling, to cold and to hot, coiled bulbs are bad, Tons of info here on this forum on these topics.

 

[Yoda0916]

As stated above, change the U shaped UVB bulb and either get a linear reptisun 10.0 or a MVB bulb. As far as Gary's symptom of not being able to open his eyes it sounds like some vitamin deficiency. I went through this with Yoda when I first got her. Daily soaks with 50/50 carrot baby food and water. I also started feeding her Mazuri and Repashi grassland tortoise food on top of the usual leafy stuff. That worked for me, good luck!

 

[wellington]

Separate them ASAP. Most likely the healthy one has parasites too. Keep the sick ones enclosure temp at 85 day and night with a basking temp of 95-100 and get a humidity in there of 80%. Soak daily and add baby food puréed carrots and flavorless pedialyte to the soak water. Keep the water warm the whole time. You can do this by soaking in a shallow bowl and place the bowl on the warm end of its enclosure by the basking light but not under it. Give just a small pinch of calcium every other day. Too much is as bad as too little and most torts don't like the taste and won't eat. Be sure your temps are measured at tort level and you have a proper UVB light placed at the height the bulb suggest and do not use any of the CFL coil types.

 

[Gary/Daisy]

Separate them ASAP. Most likely the healthy one has parasites too. Keep the sick ones enclosure temp at 85 day and night with a basking temp of 95-100 and get a humidity in there of 80%. Soak daily and add baby food puréed carrots and flavorless pedialyte to the soak water. Keep the water warm the whole time. You can do this by soaking in a shallow bowl and place the bowl on the warm end of its enclosure by the basking light but not under it. Give just a small pinch of calcium every other day. Too much is as bad as too little and most torts don't like the taste and won't eat. Be sure your temps are measured at tort level and you have a proper UVB light placed at the height the bulb suggest and do not use any of the CFL coil types.

We gave them both medication for parasites and are finished with their doses. Should we still separate them?

 

[wellington]

Yes, still separate. Tortoises should not be kept in pairs. With one sick, it really should be by itself so it's not in fear of being bullied.

 

[dmmj]

if the one is to have a chance of surviving you need to separate as soon as possible and keep them separate

 

[Tom]

Hello and welcome to the forum. Sorry its under these circumstances, but glad you found us, because you've been given some bad care info. I hope we can help make things better for your tortoises.

You will quickly discover that there is a lot of contradictory care info of this species out in the world. Most breeders do not start them correctly, and most of the care info out in the world for this species is out-dated, based on incorrect assumptions about their lives in the wild, and just plain wrong. In most cases the wrong heating and lighting info is given, the wrong substrate is recommended, and the wrong diet is suggested.

Here is the correct care info:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/

Where are you? Did your tortoises get sunshine over the summer? How often do you soak them? Where did you get them and how were they started as hatchlings? With the answers to these questions we can begin to narrow down what is going on there.

Here are some things that I see that need immediate attention. Other posters already mentioned some of these too:
1. Basking area is too hot.
2. 80 is good, but if its dropping below that on a cool night, it is too cold.
3. No soil for substrate. You can't know what the soil in a bag from the hardware store is made of. Could be anything, including composted toxic plants.
4. No red bulbs for night time. This tropical species needs it dark, but still warm. Ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on a thermostat best accomplish this.
5. It is near impossible to maintain the correct temperatures and humidity with an open topped enclosure for this species.
6. Tortoises should never be housed in pairs. Groups can sometimes work, but not pairs. When people do this, one or both always suffers for it.

Read those threads and see what is different in your care routine. I'm giving you this info as someone who has been keeping, breeding and raising 100's of babies of this species since 1991. I followed all the wrong advice and did all the wrong things and through decades of trial and error, I figured out what was really needed. Literally 1000s of people all over the world are now doing it this way now and all have the same ideal results that I now achieve. In time, you will also learn what I/we already know, but we'd like to save you a lot of time and also save your tortoise from what will happen if the typical advice is followed. Please feel free to come back and ask all of your questions. We don't mind clarifying and explaining any or all of this new info.

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi, and welcome to the Forum!

It's so much easier to tend to a sick baby when you set him up in a smaller, hospital tank. You can use a 10 gallon aquarium for this. Fix it so the temperature is 80-85F all over the whole tank, day and night, (at ground level) and then cover the whole shebang, lights and all.

Every day place the baby in a 50/50 mixture of warm water and Gerber's strained carrots and leave him in there for at least a half hour. If you use a small enough container, you can place it back into the tank to keep it warm for the half hour. This is not a 'fix' but it helps get some nutrients into him while he's not eating. After doing this soak for three days you will notice that his eyes open and stay open. Once that happens, he should start eating.

Don't use too much calcium. If they can see/smell it, they tend to not eat. Just a small pinch over the food about three times a week, then mix up the food so the calcium isn't globbed into one spot.

 

[Gary/Daisy]

Hi, and welcome to the Forum!

It's so much easier to tend to a sick baby when you set him up in a smaller, hospital tank. You can use a 10 gallon aquarium for this. Fix it so the temperature is 80-85F all over the whole tank, day and night, (at ground level) and then cover the whole shebang, lights and all.

Every day place the baby in a 50/50 mixture of warm water and Gerber's strained carrots and leave him in there for at least a half hour. If you use a small enough container, you can place it back into the tank to keep it warm for the half hour. This is not a 'fix' but it helps get some nutrients into him while he's not eating. After doing this soak for three days you will notice that his eyes open and stay open. Once that happens, he should start eating.

Don't use too much calcium. If they can see/smell it, they tend to not eat. Just a small pinch over the food about three times a week, then mix up the food so the calcium isn't globbed into one spot.

Hello!

Thank you so much for this response. I do have a few questions, though.

Is using the red light ok for them at night? I've been lurking on this website for a while now and a lot of people say it's ok, but a few say it's not. I've also seen quite a bit on how it's ok if the basking temperature is what we have it at now, but now I've had people telling me it's way too hot. We use a 50 gallon stock tank for them and we'd rather not have to buy a whole new habitat for them, so what are your recommendations for making their habitat with the one we have suitable for them?

 

[Gary/Daisy]

Hello and welcome to the forum. Sorry its under these circumstances, but glad you found us, because you've been given some bad care info. I hope we can help make things better for your tortoises.

You will quickly discover that there is a lot of contradictory care info of this species out in the world. Most breeders do not start them correctly, and most of the care info out in the world for this species is out-dated, based on incorrect assumptions about their lives in the wild, and just plain wrong. In most cases the wrong heating and lighting info is given, the wrong substrate is recommended, and the wrong diet is suggested.

Here is the correct care info:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/

Where are you? Did your tortoises get sunshine over the summer? How often do you soak them? Where did you get them and how were they started as hatchlings? With the answers to these questions we can begin to narrow down what is going on there.

Here are some things that I see that need immediate attention. Other posters already mentioned some of these too:
1. Basking area is too hot.
2. 80 is good, but if its dropping below that on a cool night, it is too cold.
3. No soil for substrate. You can't know what the soil in a bag from the hardware store is made of. Could be anything, including composted toxic plants.
4. No red bulbs for night time. This tropical species needs it dark, but still warm. Ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on a thermostat best accomplish this.
5. It is near impossible to maintain the correct temperatures and humidity with an open topped enclosure for this species.
6. Tortoises should never be housed in pairs. Groups can sometimes work, but not pairs. When people do this, one or both always suffers for it.

Read those threads and see what is different in your care routine. I'm giving you this info as someone who has been keeping, breeding and raising 100's of babies of this species since 1991. I followed all the wrong advice and did all the wrong things and through decades of trial and error, I figured out what was really needed. Literally 1000s of people all over the world are now doing it this way now and all have the same ideal results that I now achieve. In time, you will also learn what I/we already know, but we'd like to save you a lot of time and also save your tortoise from what will happen if the typical advice is followed. Please feel free to come back and ask all of your questions. We don't mind clarifying and explaining any or all of this new info.

Hello!

Thank you for your response! I definitely have a few questions.

We have them in the 50 gallon stock tank and we'd rather not buy a whole new habitat, so what are your recommendations as far as making what they have now suitable for them? For example: How do we cover their habitat? What should the temperatures and humidity be? I've been a long time lurker on this website and I've seen a lot of things saying my basking temp for them is ok and the red light is ok to.

 

[Markw84]

Hello!

Thank you for your response! I definitely have a few questions.

We have them in the 50 gallon stock tank and we'd rather not buy a whole new habitat, so what are your recommendations as far as making what they have now suitable for them? For example: How do we cover their habitat? What should the temperatures and humidity be? I've been a long time lurker on this website and I've seen a lot of things saying my basking temp for them is ok and the red light is ok to.

I will speak to the red light. I know there are many reptile keepers who still choose to use red lights at night to heat. In my opinion, we are finding way too much research that now shows tortoises have much better color vision than humans. They can see wavelengths that are invisible to us. Red light in particular is shown as a key trigger in circadian rhythms for all types of vertebrates. (circadian simply means "around a day" so the urges we feel of when to sleep, wake, peak activity, etc.) Tortoises also are being found to be extremely color and UVA sensitive in choosing foods. Circannual rhythms (around the year) are also triggered by UVA and other wavelength intensity - triggering brumation and breeding, etc.

So why do some say they have used red or blue lights and everything is fine? I think even humans can get used to sleeping with the light on all night, but that doesn't mean it is the best option. We have seen long term effects of those who do this, and the opposite with long term effects, depression, etc from those in extreme northern latitudes where not enough full spectrum light is available.

There is just too much evidence that this is not optimal. So with such an easy, inexpensive, long-lasting option as a CHE (Ceramic Heat Emitter) available, why expose your tortoise to the red light at night? Simply put a CHE in where the red light is now.

 

[Yvonne G]

As far as setting up a separate enclosure - you really, really need to place that sick baby in a smaller, hospital tank, and get him away from the other tortoise. Long term, for after he's well again? Well, that's up to you, but more often than not, two tortoises in one enclosure ends up with a dominant and a submissive and the submissive rarely fares well. In fact that MIGHT just be why you have one sick one and one well one now.

 

[Gary/Daisy]

As far as setting up a separate enclosure - you really, really need to place that sick baby in a smaller, hospital tank, and get him away from the other tortoise. Long term, for after he's well again? Well, that's up to you, but more often than not, two tortoises in one enclosure ends up with a dominant and a submissive and the submissive rarely fares well. In fact that MIGHT just be why you have one sick one and one well one now.

We separated them as soon as we saw these messages! I've done three carrot/water soaks with him and his eyes still won't open, though. We have a follow up vet appointment tomorrow, so hopefully something will come out of that.

 

[Stuart S.]

Hope your little one gets better soon! Keep up the hard work!

 

[Bee62]

How warm it is in the enclosure of the sick baby ?
Place him directly under the basking lamp. What did he do ? He should open his eyes when he is getting warm.

 

[Gary/Daisy]

How warm it is in the enclosure of the sick baby ?
Place him directly under the basking lamp. What did he do ? He should open his eyes when he is getting warm.

The cool side of the enclosure is normally between 80 and 90 degrees. We've set him under the lamp multiple times and he'll usually stay in the same spot and "sleep", but sometimes he'll move to the more humid side of his habitat

 

[Bee62]

Gary/Daisy said

The cool side of the enclosure is normally between 80 and 90 degrees. We've set him under the lamp multiple times and he'll usually stay in the same spot and "sleep", but sometimes he'll move to the more humid side of his habitat

That sounds not good.
Please tell us what the Vet. had said.
Fingers are crossed for your little one.

 

[Bee62]

News ?

 

[Jesika]

I 100% agree with everything Tom posted. One thing I don't like is pedialyte soaks, I've heard way too many horror stories about it. Also something that has been glanced over is what kind of succulent plants are in their enclosure and what are you feeding them on a daily basis? Also just one more thing is I 100% agree with not housing them in pairs.