dmarcus said:If there is a demand for it, then it's going to happen.
dmarcus said:If there is a demand for it, then it's going to happen.
dmmj said:Male ***? I have been called that before.
Neltharion said:I find the crossbreeding of dogs and the crossbreeding of tortoises to be something of an apples and oranges comparison. Different breeds of domesticated canine are the result of generations of breeding and line breeding through human intervention. Crossbreeding different breeds of dogs is simply tampering with the linebreeding already done by man. Dogs are nowhere near endangered.
Different species of tortoises, on the other hand, are in many cases endangered. Likely in many cases, species of tortoises will be extinct in the wild and the remaining specimens will exist only in zoos and private keepers. Although not ideal in a 'perfect world' scenario, captive specimens will be the last remnants of these species. Responsible keepers will ensure that these bloodlines remain pure.
Which gets back to Matt's original question, is the world all about money? For some people, yet it is.
Tell your mom there are goldendoodles in rescue that are homeless and would love to be adopted!! There is every kind of dog in rescue waiting for a home, from heinz 57 mutts to designer crossbreeds to purebreds.matt581 said:yes ik they do. My mom wants a goldendoodle there 600+ even go up to 1800 range if not more. What im trying to say that poor tortoise is living alot longer than a dog will. Nothing on mixed dogs i love them.
Yes, it is different than a mixed dog. Dogs are purebreds because we messed with it and did that. If we left dogs alone in nature and they reproduced on their own we would end up with a 40 lb. nondescript brown dog with a curly tail and upright ears. And that would be the wild dog. We only have poodles, shih tzus, labs, goldens because we manipulated their breeding. Left on their own in the wild, a leopard tortoise mates with another leo and a sulcata mates with another sulcata.Laura said:I dont agree with it,, but is it any different then a labmix dog?
of course the price.. it amazes me what people will pay lots of many for..
designer dogs... $1200 for a Mutt? that was these are and some people like that sort of thing..
i love mutts.. but some cross breeding should be left alone.. like Ligers... lion tiger mixes...
Tom said:Neltharion said:I find the crossbreeding of dogs and the crossbreeding of tortoises to be something of an apples and oranges comparison. Different breeds of domesticated canine are the result of generations of breeding and line breeding through human intervention. Crossbreeding different breeds of dogs is simply tampering with the linebreeding already done by man. Dogs are nowhere near endangered.
Different species of tortoises, on the other hand, are in many cases endangered. Likely in many cases, species of tortoises will be extinct in the wild and the remaining specimens will exist only in zoos and private keepers. Although not ideal in a 'perfect world' scenario, captive specimens will be the last remnants of these species. Responsible keepers will ensure that these bloodlines remain pure.
Which gets back to Matt's original question, is the world all about money? For some people, yet it is.
I agree. To phrase it in my own words. All dogs are the same species. All dogs are man made and highly manipulated for thousands of years. These two types of tortoises are totally different species.
... And before anyone comments that sulcatas and leopards are not endangered, they are. Not sure on the leopards, but sulcatas are already extinct in two countries within their range and probably more, but study is very dangerous and difficult as well as expensive, in some of those countries. In Senegal, they were down to only 40 left in the wild before some recent reintroductions. While we may have an abundance of sulcatas here, they really are highly endangered in their wild territory.
Tom said:I have no idea on the leopards. On the sulcatas, I only know what my friend from Senegal has told me. He knows they are extinct in at least two countries and he suspects a few more, but can't safely get in there to survey. In his country they were down to forty, but through an enormous effort he has now done several reintroductions. I can't remember the exact number, but I think he has released several dozen subadults since 2006. He as actually seen hatchlings now, so things seem promising in his protected park area.
Terry Allan Hall said:Len said:Are the mix breeds able to reproduce or are they mules?
I'd assume that they're ordinarily not viable, like a male ***/female horse mule, but on very rare occasions female mules have given birth to viable offspring (also, in 2003, researchers at University of Idaho and Utah State University produced the first mule clone)...and there has been documented tigon females (tiger/lion hybrid) reproducing.
So, who knows if a female leo/sulcata hybrid occasionally can, as well. They haven't been around long enough to know beyond a doubt.
EricIvins said:Terry Allan Hall said:Len said:Are the mix breeds able to reproduce or are they mules?
I'd assume that they're ordinarily not viable, like a male ***/female horse mule, but on very rare occasions female mules have given birth to viable offspring (also, in 2003, researchers at University of Idaho and Utah State University produced the first mule clone)...and there has been documented tigon females (tiger/lion hybrid) reproducing.
So, who knows if a female leo/sulcata hybrid occasionally can, as well. They haven't been around long enough to know beyond a doubt.
You will find that most Reptile\Amphibian Hybrids are very Fertile.......Mules are not a good example of Hybrid viability, and comparing them to a Tortoise is like comparing a lawn mower to a Ferrari........
EricIvins said:I'd also like to point out the Hypocrisy that this thread does bring up -
How many mixed Sulcatas and Leopards do we have in captivity right now? There isn't just one type of Sulcata, or one Leopard type........
They all differ in their various locales, and some are going to be brought up to species status in the next few years......
So? We can complain left and right about these Hybrids, but not about the many that have been produced for years under the guise of "Pure" animals? Really?
Tom said:I have no idea on the leopards. On the sulcatas, I only know what my friend from Senegal has told me. He knows they are extinct in at least two countries and he suspects a few more, but can't safely get in there to survey. In his country they were down to forty, but through an enormous effort he has now done several reintroductions. I can't remember the exact number, but I think he has released several dozen subadults since 2006. He as actually seen hatchlings now, so things seem promising in his protected park area.
Tom said:It would be nice to just go ahead and release our extra ones back into the wild, but it is just not prudent or practical.
1. There are at least three different "types" in the wild. No one is calling them subspecies yet, but there are definite geographical variations. The vast majority of the ones over here are simply mutts. As they were imported from various areas within their range, they were all lumped together over here. We love them. Work great for us as pets, but not suitable for release back into the wild. DNA testing might reveal some true bloodlines still lingering here in the states, but that seems unlikely to ever happen.
2. There is a reason they are extinct or nearly extinct in the wild. This is a very complex, multi-facted problem and there is no simple solution to it. Unless what drove them to this point is identified and eliminated, releasing more would be pointless.
3. Who knows what creepy crawlies they have been exposed to and are carrying around over here. All the exposure to other tortoises and other animals could have them carrying ticking time bombs that we don't even know about yet. Look at the mycoplasma with the CA desert tortoises.
4. It is VERY expensive, time consuming and logistically difficult to re-release animals into the wild. Many many hoops must be jumped through first to get the myriad of necessary tests and approvals done.