House different species aquatic turtles together

[enchilada]

Just curious. Why I rarely see any debate on mixing different species aquatic turtles together?
it is a very common practice among pet turtle owners. Of course the basic rule is dont mix them if the size difference is too large : i've seen accidents such as big snapping turtle chopped off another small turtle's head.

so wheres the "pathogen/parasite/"mystery bugs" people when they see turtles mixed together?

 

[wellington]

I'm assuming it's because we don't have many turtle people on here. Mostly tortoises, hence tortoise forum. Not that we don't like turtles and not that we don't want their owners, we just mostly have tortoises then turtles. I however, would not mix species of any animal, unless they were able to be fixed so no breeding as in dogs and cats.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

I wondered this myself when setting up my turtle tank. I even asked the question here on this forum and was told it didn't matter with aquatics as longs as they were similar.. ??
I housed RES with Southern Painted and even shared info about them and photos here. I never heard any comments about separating them.

I always kept my tortoises separate and now the painted lives alone...but I'd still like to know what the difference was :shy:

 

[Turtlepete]

There are entire forums out there dedicated to turtles. While you won't find anyone condoning mixing species from different continents, like African and Asian's, the turtle community is not nearly as opposed to the idea.
I'm probably going to regret this….
I don't know how to say this without stepping on toes (though thats not my intention), but there have been way to many statements I've seen made on this forum, just in my short time here (although, I've read this forum for a long time before I joined), that are not necessarily true, nor "accepted scientific 'truth' ". But they are made loud enough, and argued about enough, that it just gets accepted as "the Truth". And when people tell you that "all your turtles/tortoises will die if you house them together", whether it's truth or not, it scares people to the point that they don't do it, and at some point, accept it. If someone were ever to come along and try to disprove it, then it's still an uphill battle against an entire community that's been brainwashed to think a specific way.
Basically, this specific community, on this forum, has a certain mindset. Yet another reason you should take your information from more then one forum, and more then what source, regardless of what that source is.

What I'm saying is, there are probably individuals among this forum that have convinced people of mixing species being the bubonic plague, but none of those kind of people among the turtle community. That I know of, at least. Just a guess. .

I think what Team Gomberg mentioned is an excellent example of exactly what I'm trying to say. Turtles are just as sensitive (I assume?) to pathogens/diseases/bacteria/mystery bug's as tortoises are.
Plus, I can't say I've heard any turtle hobbyists tell tale's of how they've seen entire collections die to mystery bugs. Maybe they have, but I haven't seen it like it is among this community.

I also should mention, different species of turtles ranges' overlap and are often sympatric with each other much more then happens with tortoises. Most tortoises are the only species within their given range (I think? Haha), where-as many species of turtles will be native to a single river.

If there is another answer to this though, some biological reason as to why turtles aren't as susceptible to this and we don't need to worry as much, then I'm all ears. I really don't know.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

Now that you mention it.."many species are native to a single river" ..is what I was told when I asked before.
Honestly, after that I never put much more thought into it. I only dealt with the few turtles and dug mostly into tortoises.

 

[jaizei]

Plus, I can't say I've heard any turtle hobbyists tell tale's of how they've seen entire collections die to mystery bugs. Maybe they have, but I haven't seen it like it is among this community..

I know of instances where it's happened but it's usually chalked up to a quarantine problem (lack of). Which is what I think the problem is when talking about tortoises. Mixing species is blamed but I view it as a failure to properly quarantine/vet animals. This is why I often qualify it when I say that I believe that species can be mixed responsibly.

 

[Turtlepete]

I know of instances where it's happened but it's usually chalked up to a quarantine problem (lack of). Which is what I think the problem is when talking about tortoises. Mixing species is blamed but I view it as a failure to properly quarantine/vet animals. This is why I often qualify it when I say that I believe that species can be mixed responsibly.

Sounds like an excellent answer to me. .

 

[Yvonne G]

Well, Pete, I think you just answered the question. There are several species of water turtle that inhabit the same range, while (except for SA) there are no tortoises that share a habitat.

I have always held that over time, years and years, tortoises have evolved to live symbiotically with their pathogens. Each group of tortoise has evolved thusly, and if you put a tortoise from one continent with a tortoise from another continent they might make each other sick, with emphasis on the "MIGHT."

Turtles have probably evolved with the same pathogens because their territories overlap, so its not as important to keep them separate, except for the instance that was alluded to above - turtles from different continents.

Also, now that we are seeing more and more captive bred tortoises its getting to be not quite as important with tortoises too, as long as you have the proper quarantine.

 

[enchilada]

what about spider tortoise and radiata? are they overlap in range?

 

[Turtlepete]

what about spider tortoise and radiata? are they overlap in range?

Good question. I don't believe that they do, anymore at least. Perhaps in the past, when their ranges were larger, and the species weren't wiped off of the majority of what their range was several centuries ago. It is an interesting question though. Definitive range information on the species is probably poor. Also I would consider the possibility of the species being pushed out of their historical range on the search for a better habitat, being that so much of their range has been destroyed. All just a guess. I'd definitely love to know if someone has a good answer to it though.

I think that the ranges of some Psammobates and Homopus may overlap, or at least thats what it looked like in a documentary I watched on them. But those species aren't even present in the hobby….or the America's, for that matter. Not something any hobbyist is ever going to have to worry about, haha.

 

[Anthony P]

I keep most of my animals indoors, where I feel more precaution should be taken when introducing different species, or even animals of the same species together. Indoor keeping almost always means smaller enclosures, so you can see the threat to an animal's health in such conditions.

Outdoors, I think you can get away with a little more. I recently visited a respected breeder's facilities and was impressed by everything I saw. Outdoor ponds with huge fenced areas around said ponds. More aquatic species can be kept with more terrestrial species, being left to fill their niche in the provided environment. This way, you could keep box turtles, with wood turtles, with pond turtles, if the enclosure is indeed huge.

Now, blanket statements like "Don't ever mix species" is a good rule of thumb or beginners, who only keep their turtles in aquariums anyway, but for hardcore keepers with thoughtful outdoor accommodations, other important factors enter the mix. For example. what species you are thinking of mixing, quarantine, source of the animals, time of importation, blah, blah, blah.....

Just my two cents

 

[Redfoot NERD]

TO ANSWER THE "MYSTERY BUGS", ETC. QUESTION ASKED.. RIGHT HERE.. and NOT taking issue to what Turtlepete or anyone has said about not being opposed to mixing species..!

First of all it amazes me that someone has to ask about size difference.. SORTA LIKE EXPECTING A 3RD GRADER TO QUARTERBACK AGAINST GREEN BAY PACKERS DEFENSE!!!

THIS REPLY WAS STARTED BEFORE ANTHONY POSTED..

The typical reply I get is.. "They are captive hatched so there's no danger".. dream on!

You don't want to hear about the horror stories of long time turtle keepers [ self included.. since 1975 ] that have lost $$$$ ( that's thousands of dollars ) and 5++ years of work.. because different species of turtles AND tortoises were in the same building - breathing the same air!!!

Please forgive me for this honest and realistic reply / rant.

 

[Turtlepete]

Terry, I think thats pretty interesting. But how was it attributed to the animals being near each other….? In specific? If it's from breathing the same air, your talking about airborne bacteria/airborne illness….I guess pinworm eggs can become airborne, but pinworm's also don't discriminate between species…..I just have a little trouble imagining this. How, specifically, did you determine that their death/illness was specifically due to being in the same room/breathing the same air?
You've been doing this a lot longer then I have, so I'm all ears to hear about it. It definitely makes me curious.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Come on Pete.. " breathing the same air" was rhetoric.. you know I meant possible "cross-contamination" potential! It may have been a foreign airborne somthing.

When someone says different species .. that to me means different continents or bodies of water - since some how tortoises got "mixed" into this water turtle thread I used the example of African and South American tortoises breathing the same air. How do I know / think that the tortoise mix was the culprit? - no other specie had been a part of anything for 15 years.. and the mix of continent "bugs" / substrate requirements of the African tortoises INSIDE wiped the redfoots out.. even though the humidity requirements were the same.

But we're talking about water turtles here. And "cross-contamination" potential is the issue with them also.. whether directly or indirectly.

Why do you think Gerards wears those blue gloves that he does? It sure isn't his husbandry practices! The issue is the same .. the principle is the same .. regardless what anyone believes or is brainwashed to believe.. in no way changes the issues or the principles.

Cross contamination whether specie induced or "man-induced" still compromises the health of our turtles or tortoises.

 

[Turtlepete]

Come on Pete.. " breathing the same air" was rhetoric.. you know I meant possible "cross-contamination" potential! It may have been a foreign airborne somthing.

I didn't. I'm no pathologist, so I was sort of open to the idea that perhaps there are airborne pathogens that were the cause of the scenario you described? But still, how did cross-contamination occur from being in the same building? Do you mean the animals were kept together? Or were they cross-contaminated from something like not washing your hands when doing maintenance on the different enclosures? I'm just trying to understand the scenario you describe better. I'm not accusing you of anything, and I hope you don't feel that way.

I don't think species from different continents should ever be mixed either. I guess it might have been confusing, but Enchilida asked this same question on that thread regarding keeping same-genus species together. Then made this thread. My post was kind of referring to that. Mixing species of the same genus, that occur in the same parts of the world. I most certainly wasn't talking about different continent species.

The problem for me, is that I've heard a dozen people mention their stories of "entire collections being wiped out" from these a.k.a "mystery bugs". But I've yet to see a single person present ANY proof of this. I'm a very inquisitive person, and I have a hard time believing anything that someone I don't know tells me, without seeing some sort of proof. I don't feel like they're telling the truth, simply because, if the evidence was so abundant, why not try to present some of it? In my experience, if someone refuses to produce evidence, it's typically because it isn't there, or they just don't have access to it, and use the claim of "evidence" to make their opinion more credible. Which is what I was referring to by "brainwashing".

So, how does it compromise their health, in the instance of keeping same-genus species together? Again, most of my post was referring to that other thread, which I was hoping Enchilida would understand. As I stated there, there are MANY conditions that would need to be met for me to possibly consider it safe to try with my own animals. Anthony sort of mentioned the same thing, that it could be done under certain conditions. But if those conditions were meant….Then I can't see the harm.

 

[enchilada]

what about genus Manouria and Indotestudo Elongata? do they overlap?

 

[Anthony P]

what about genus Manouria and Indotestudo Elongata? do they overlap?

I don't know if I would mix tortoises and aquatics that would share the same space. I'm just not sure. I have seen zoos do it, though.

 

[Benjamin]

I housed my five manouria emys emys with my 1.2 elongata for years without incident.

 

[Yvonne G]

I'm not sure, but I THINK those two TORTOISE species might have overlapping territories.

Let's get back to the water turtle question please, and leave tortoises out of the discussion.

 

[Yellow Turtle]

Now this picture below show turtles from different continent being housed together.