Hatchling Sulcata Problems - urgent

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Nic0

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Hello!
My fiancé and I recently purchased a hatchling sulcata at a rep show. This is our fourth tortoise, so we have some experience with torts. The first week we had it, it was very active, friendly, and had a great appetite. But after another week, it became sluggish and refused to eat. We also noticed strange wart-like bumps popping up all over the softer skin around the neck and legs, but it seemed to be shedding these growths out and hasn't developed any on its new skin. We visited a vet and he suggested we tweak our light setup to provide more warmth so we did, but it has been two weeks now without much improvement.

Setup:
We have it in a plastic tub that's roughly 3' by 2'. We changed our substrate to coconut coir to retain some moisture. The tort has a hide big enough to turn around it and a large shallow water dish it can climb in and out of. We have a red basking spot providing a bask temp of 100-110 at the most and then a smaller light that helps keep the rest of the cage at 90-100 during the day. At night we've been keeping the red basking light on to keep the temps up.

Diet:
We started it on Mazori tortoise pellets and it was eating them in the beginning along with grass and mixed greens. We also soak it every day for at least an hour in warm water, sometimes 2.

We are really at a loss as to what else we can do and just really want to know what's wrong. If you need any more information just let me know. Any help is much appreciated!
 

Nic0

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Oh and we also do have a UVB tube 10.0 light running all day.
 

Tom

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I have only seen lesions like that one other time. Same lethargy and lack of appetite too. Necropsy revealed cryptosporidiosis. In mammals this is usually easily treatable. In reptiles there is no known cure and nothing works. It is very difficult to diagnose and will not show up in a fecal. It can be found with a gastric lavage, but even then it sometimes doesn't show. Necropsy is the only sure way to diagnose it. I researched this a lot and even talked to the guy at the Baltimore Zoo who studied this bug for years. This tortoise will not get better and will be a living spreader of this organism. It is highly contagious and spreads through fecal contact. It can be spread by the tiny substrate flies that move from one enclosure to the next.

This bug is apparently common in wild russians, stars and pancakes. They carry it and are often asymptomatic. If its spreads to any boids or pythons, it can wipe out your entire collection. I too saw it in a group of young sulcatas. It did not kill them, just slowed them down dramatically and halted their growth.

I recommend immediate euthanasia and incineration of everything this tortoise has come in contact with. Bowls, substrate, cage decorations, hides, etc. Bleach does not kill it either. You must use a 10-20% dilute ammonia solution, but really, just chuck the enclosure and get a new one.

This seller needs to know what he's got and what he's spreading. This is a big deal. Where are you? Where was the show? Others need to be warned. PM me if you don't want to talk about it publicly. I suspect I know where this tortoise originated.
 

Sulcata_Sandy

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Metronidazole won't treat it in Tortoises???? It's not that uncommon of a parasite in mammals.

I'm so so sorry this happened! Please keep us posted. I'm in shock
 

Nic0

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For the good of everyone, this tort was bought at a rep show in Hamburg PA from someone who wasn't an established breeder.
I'm really shaken up considering we have several other reptiles. It would really help if someone had a reference picture of the lesions mentioned before so I could at least try for a definite diagnoses.
 

Baoh

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Take it to a veterinarian. Not random people who are not fit to make diagnoses and who would freely do so over the internet without first having a professional examination performed.


SenjiSandy said:
Metronidazole won't treat it in Tortoises???? It's not that uncommon of a parasite in mammals.

I'm so so sorry this happened! Please keep us posted. I'm in shock

No, however, Alinia could have some pretty decent efficacy. Mammals that are not immunocompromised can usually purge it on their own.

Assuming the proper tests (multiple fecal analyses, acid-fast stains, certain other (FL) microscopy techniques, maaaaaaaybeeeee PCR, and stuff like http://www.techlab.com/product_details/t30407.shtml aka Quik Chek) were ordered and the offending organism was found to actually be in the Cryptosporidium genus.

Which has not happened.

But, hey, anybody can just kill the sick tortoise and set their stuff on fire without an examination and proper diagnosis because someone has/had a Crypto infection (which was blamed on an innocent party) and -for some reason- did not send his collection up in smoke. For some reason.
 

Nic0

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We did take it to a vet a couple weeks ago, and I brought up the growths/lesions, whatever you want to call them, and he didn't seem concerned. I'm definitely going to call him in the morning. I don't mean to sound cold, but I really don't want my others reps at risk so I will euthanize it if I have to.

Does anyone know if the lesions on this beardie are from the same parasite? These look pretty similar to what I'm seeing on my tort.
http://old.trustedpartner.com/images/library/000087/mouth2.jpg
 

Sulcata_Sandy

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I'd probably have a veterinarian do a fine need biopsy/aspirate and send a set of slides to their reference lab. ANY veterinarian can do this...reptile experienced or not. We do these daily on cats, dogs, rodents. I've never done an FNA/FNB on a reptile, but it wouldn't intimidate me to do so especially on a possibly life threatening disease/parasite.
The pathologist at the reference lab will give you a written report in 12-36 hours, with microscopic findings, differential diagnosis or probable diagnosis, and treatment plan.

Euthanasia may very well be the final outcome, but lets get a diagnosis vs an experienced (and possibly correct assessment). Tom, I value your experience!! You've been there, done that, bought the TShirt when it comes to tortoises.

Metronidazole (trade name Flagyl) or Fenbendazole (Trade name Panacur or SafeGuard) treat most parasites.
Albon, which is a sulfa drug, treats a few other parasites such as coccidia. May be worth hitting him with those empirically as a last ditch effort to save him.

Lastly, I agree with Tom, toss out the substrate and enclosure and start over. This could be devastatingly contagious and can reinfect.
 

Nic0

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I'm new and all my replies seem to still be caught up in the censoring stages, but I do plan on calling the vet tomorrow. I hate to be cold hearted, but I really don't want to invest a whole lot more money because I have already paid for one vet visit. However, the peace of mind another could provide would be worth the money. But overall, I'm trying to think in the best interests of my other pets. Its a sticky spot. If anyone could provide me with pictures of the lesions this parasite causes it would really help.
 

johnreuk

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I agree with Baoh completely. The best thing you could possibly do is present your tortoise to a vet experienced with chelonian experience.
Good luck!
John
 

Yvonne G

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Hi Nic, and welcome to the Forum!

I'm so sorry you have bought what seems to be a sick tortoise. In my opinion, you should print out what Tom and Baoh have posted here and take it to your vet.

We can give you our experience, but in order to really know what is going on with the tortoise, it has to be seen in real life, not just the written word.

Good luck. I hope it turns out for the best.
 

Nic0

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Thank you for all the input and advice! I'll keep you all posted and let you know what the vet recommends.
 

Nic0

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So today there seems to have been improvement in the little tort. It's in my fiancé's care while I'm up at school, and he said today while taking a soak, it had a big poop and then began nibbling on food. Could it have just been experiencing constipation? I realize the "lesions" are still an issue, but my fiancé says there haven't been any more that have popped up lately. Are there any kind of strange skin conditions that Sulcatas are prone to? Or do juveniles just sometimes have strange sheds? I still plan on talking to the vet, but I just don't know what to think.


I FINALLY found a picture of what these lesions look like. Anyone seen this before? These are pretty close to what my little one is dealing with, but it seems to have shed out all of them.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/attachment.php?aid=42125
 

Baoh

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What is the source of the photo?
 

Nic0

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This was from a thread a few months back that I found while digging around today. After weeks of searching, this is the only picture I've found that looks like what I'm dealing with. No conclusion was ever made in this previous thread, but I did ask the OP if they figured it out and haven't heard back yet.
 

Baoh

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Please provide a link to said thread when you have a spare moment.
 

sibi

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Why do you want to know? Do you think it's the dreaded disease? Have you seen these lesions before?

Baoh said:
What is the source of the photo?
 
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