Hatchling pricing?

[ShadowRancher]

So I'm visiting my parent after finals and they have a reptile show in this weekend, it was a little disappointing on the tortoise front (there was an adult pair of beautiful sullys and red foots both that I, of course, can't afford ). There was however one little blonde beauty of a sully hatchling that I'm rather enamored of, she was in a dry ten gallon with about 12 of her brothers and sisters and a couple little redfoots... I understand show housing so I was willing to forgive them that because they a looked pretty healthy. But I flagged down the girl and asked how much her sullys were and she puttered around for a minute, asked me to point out which breed I wanted again then was like "OHH it's 85 or 100 I can't tell which is which" that really turned me off. Not just the price which I think is pretty steep (I think it's safe to assume the sulcatas were 85) but that she didn't seem to know anything about tortoises, and then just sort of stood there and stared blankly when I started enquiring about background info.

I really want to get a couple more sullys and have them be about Levi's size but is it worth it to go back tomorrow and (hopefully) talk to someone else to see if anyone at the table is knowledgeable and maybe talk them down a bit... I feel like charging 85 is negating any benefit of getting one in person at a show rather than having to ship.

Thoughts?

 

[Laura]

look into a rescue.. they have adults... in need of new homes...
either way.. its not wise to put any new ones with your current right away.. and due to temperments, they may not get along now or inthe future.. do you have the funds to house and feed and heat 3 large torts?
just a thought....

---

and yes.. i think that price is a bit high.. but... and if they arent sure what they are?? Id walk away...

 

[Tom]

Oh Ana. There are SOOOO many GOOD places to buy a new baby from. Why would you even consider buying one from somebody who is housing them all wrong and potentially infecting them with pathogens from other continents? Babies can literally dehydrate over night in those kind of conditions. There is some color variation in baby sulcatas, but usually a very light colored hatchling means it has not seen the sun. My hatchlings get a nice sun tan going within their first week or two.

Please read this and then buy from somebody who at least starts them right. I have some for sale right now and, if you don't like me, there are lots of other good breeders here on the forum.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Hatchling-Failure-Syndrome#axzz1g7U5VNQ2

 

[jaizei]

Supply and demand. There weren't many people selling tortoises so they were able to charge more, though that price didn't seem that high to me. Unless you're living in tortoise meccas like California, Florida or Arizona, that price isn't too bad. I think the last show I went to had Sulcatas for $75.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by 'a dry ten gallon'? What type of substrate? And as long as they were all captive bred, I don't see the harm in having them in the same enclosure at the show.

Why would you even consider buying one from somebody who is housing them all wrong and potentially infecting them with pathogens from other continents?

I'm curious what 'pathogens from other continents' you are talking about, especially in hatchlings that are most likely captive bred.

 

[ShadowRancher]

look into a rescue.. they have adults... in need of new homes...
either way.. its not wise to put any new ones with your current right away.. and due to temperments, they may not get along now or inthe future.. do you have the funds to house and feed and heat 3 large torts?
just a thought....

---

and yes.. i think that price is a bit high.. but... and if they arent sure what they are?? Id walk away...

---

Yes to resounding agreement with that second bit... I just needed someone else to say Otto me so I could resist any little hatchling (I'll admit I hav a bit of a problem with walking away from them)
As for the first bit we already sort of covered that conversation, remember? And I decided that I don't think I'm quite ready for a potentially special needs adult.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-About-multiples#axzz1gC0NZ4rL

---

Oh Ana. There are SOOOO many GOOD places to buy a new baby from. Why would you even consider buying one from somebody who is housing them all wrong and potentially infecting them with pathogens from other continents? Babies can literally dehydrate over night in those kind of conditions. There is some color variation in baby sulcatas, but usually a very light colored hatchling means it has not seen the sun. My hatchlings get a nice sun tan going within their first week or two.

Please read this and then buy from somebody who at least starts them right. I have some for sale right now and, if you don't like me, there are lots of other good breeders here on the forum.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Hatchling-Failure-Syndrome#axzz1g7U5VNQ2

Yeah you are definitely right...like I said to Laura I may have a teensy problem with walking away from hatchlings I didn't realize you (or any member) had hatchlings right now. And I totally like you, I have a crush on all of your torts...I may have stalked through most of your info posts as my favored procrastination tool last week :shy:

 

[chairman]

If you think that you might be in the market for an adult sulcata that does not have "special needs", I have seen these guys on faunaclassifieds for a while. They are located in SC and would probably cost less to purchase for their posted price than it would to have a rescue shipped to you. http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287006 I can't vouch for the seller, but it isn't like you'd be buying sight unseen.

 

[Baoh]

I'm curious what 'pathogens from other continents' you are talking about, especially in hatchlings that are most likely captive bred.

To each his own, but I have been having great difficulty infecting my tortoises with pathogens from other continents. Maybe I am not trying hard enough.

 

[dmarcus]

When I go to a reptile show and ask a question, if the person at the booth seems confused and can't answer the easist of questions I walk away fast. When I buy now, I want to know how the tortoise was kept and thats important to me even more than the actual price..

 

[Tom]

Baoh and jaizei, I went nearly 20 years dodging that bullet using the same blissfully ignorant logic as you. All it will take is one single infection and you will both change that tune.

No one, and I mean NO one, has all the "bugs" cataloged. If you consider every amoeba, flagellate, protozoan, bacterium, mycobacterium, fungus, virus, the myriad of worms, parasites and a whole host of other nasties that exist all over the globe, not to mention what they pick up from who knows where in captivity, it is a daunting and scary thing.

If on the other hand you DON'T consider all those things, and every time you have gambled so far you have not lost, then the world of possible tortoise infection is a much brighter place.

Ask yourselves, after dealing with reptiles of all sorts from all over the world on a professional commercial level for the last 26 years, having a college education in parasitology and biology, having a microbiologist with 13 years of vet tech experience for a wife, knowing some of the people who STARTED the reptile import business 40-50 years ago, do you think I am stupidly repeating something I read in a book or on the internet? Or is it possible that I MIGHT have seen and experienced some things that you might not have, YET? This is not a Pi**ing contest. I am trying to tell you that just because it hasn't happened to you yet, does not mean it won't. And when it does, it can be pretty bad.

Reminds me of something I see all the time with my dog aggression clients. After an episode of unexpected (unexpected by the pet owner, not me) aggression, the first thing that almost everyone says is, "He's never done THAT before..." Likewise in the tortoise world, you've never had an infection run through your colony, UNTIL the day you have an infection run through your colony...

 

[EricIvins]

Baoh and jaizei, I went nearly 20 years dodging that bullet using the same blissfully ignorant logic as you. All it will take is one single infection and you will both change that tune.

No one, and I mean NO one, has all the "bugs" cataloged. If you consider every amoeba, flagellate, protozoan, bacterium, mycobacterium, fungus, virus, the myriad of worms, parasites and a whole host of other nasties that exist all over the globe, not to mention what they pick up from who knows where in captivity, it is a daunting and scary thing.

If on the other hand you DON'T consider all those things, and every time you have gambled so far you have not lost, then the world of possible tortoise infection is a much brighter place.

Ask yourselves, after dealing with reptiles of all sorts from all over the world on a professional commercial level for the last 26 years, having a college education in parasitology and biology, having a microbiologist with 13 years of vet tech experience for a wife, knowing some of the people who STARTED the reptile import business 40-50 years ago, do you think I am stupidly repeating something I read in a book or on the internet? Or is it possible that I MIGHT have seen and experienced some things that you might not have, YET? This is not a Pi**ing contest. I am trying to tell you that just because it hasn't happened to you yet, does not mean it won't. And when it does, it can be pretty bad.

Reminds me of something I see all the time with my dog aggression clients. After an episode of unexpected (unexpected by the pet owner, not me) aggression, the first thing that almost everyone says is, "He's never done THAT before..." Likewise in the tortoise world, you've never had an infection run through your colony, UNTIL the day you have an infection run through your colony...

Have you considered all the Pathogens your Tortoises are exposed to by keeping them outside? Does that deter you from keeping them outside anyway?

 

[Tom]

Have you considered all the Pathogens your Tortoises are exposed to by keeping them outside? Does that deter you from keeping them outside anyway?

Yes, frequently. This is an easy one to figure out with a simple risk vs. benefit formula. The health benefits of being outside far outweigh the risks of picking up local pathogens.

What is the tremendous health benefit derived from mixing species? Do you think there is no risk? Do we really need to nit-pick over extremes and technicalities, or can we agree that mixing species is generally not good advice.

 

[Tony the tank]

I can see that the keeping species that have different husbandry requirements is not good practice...What I cannot see how keeping them separated by a few feet deters the spread of infection...

Unless we use extreme precautions.. Which is just not feasible for the average keeper... Every time we have contact with anything we always take and leave something...

 

[Tom]

I can see that the keeping species that have different husbandry requirements is not good practice...What I cannot see how keeping them separated by a few feet deters the spread of infection...

Unless we use extreme precautions.. Which is just not feasible for the average keeper... Every time we have contact with anything we always take and leave something...

This is true Hector, but most of the nasties are transmitted trough direct contact with bodily fluids (eating off of the same leaf or drinking from the same water bowl) or feces. According to the exotics vet that I learned from, a 6' air space between enclosures is sufficient for preventing the spread of most diseases and parasites and is the "industry standard" for quarantine facilities. Of course common sensical husbandry practices are still needed.

I'm not advocating sterile, lab-like conditions for pet tortoises. Quite the contrary, I think the acquired immunity from living on real dirt with all of its microbes is a good thing. I am simply sharing my opinion that mixing species is risky, I don't recommend it and I would not buy a tortoise from someone who does it. The OP asked for opinions about this seller's prices and practices. This is mine.

D'marcus makes an excellent point that I wholeheartedly agree with. The price of a tortoise $10 or $20, one way or the other, is totally insignificant for an animal that will live for decades. What is significant is how that tortoise has been cared for. The typical sulcatas comes out of a beef jerkey maker style set up and many of them perish months down the road because of this. In contrast, if they have been kept correctly and hydrated, they usually thrive.

 

[Baoh]

Baoh and jaizei, I went nearly 20 years dodging that bullet using the same blissfully ignorant logic as you. All it will take is one single infection and you will both change that tune.

No one, and I mean NO one, has all the "bugs" cataloged. If you consider every amoeba, flagellate, protozoan, bacterium, mycobacterium, fungus, virus, the myriad of worms, parasites and a whole host of other nasties that exist all over the globe, not to mention what they pick up from who knows where in captivity, it is a daunting and scary thing.

If on the other hand you DON'T consider all those things, and every time you have gambled so far you have not lost, then the world of possible tortoise infection is a much brighter place.

Ask yourselves, after dealing with reptiles of all sorts from all over the world on a professional commercial level for the last 26 years, having a college education in parasitology and biology, having a microbiologist with 13 years of vet tech experience for a wife, knowing some of the people who STARTED the reptile import business 40-50 years ago, do you think I am stupidly repeating something I read in a book or on the internet? Or is it possible that I MIGHT have seen and experienced some things that you might not have, YET? This is not a Pi**ing contest. I am trying to tell you that just because it hasn't happened to you yet, does not mean it won't. And when it does, it can be pretty bad.

Reminds me of something I see all the time with my dog aggression clients. After an episode of unexpected (unexpected by the pet owner, not me) aggression, the first thing that almost everyone says is, "He's never done THAT before..." Likewise in the tortoise world, you've never had an infection run through your colony, UNTIL the day you have an infection run through your colony...

I appreciate your illogical and unscientific position regarding a scientific topic. The appeal to authority fallacy was an especially nice touch. Stating something as fact does not make it a statement of fact.

I mix. You do not. I have no problem with your practice. I also do not feel the need to evangelize.

 

[Tom]

Your attempt to over intellectualize a simple subject does nothing to validate your feelings on the matter, nor does it invalidate scientific fact.

I DO have a problem with your practice as it is potentially dangerous and damaging to tortoises. It is also a problem when you try to make seem like its totally fine and with out substantial risk to newbies who might be swayed by your command of the english language in your attempts to make yourself sound more intelligent. If making people aware of potential risks to the health of their animals is evangelizing, then color me guilty.

If you wish to debate the subject further, or share more of your insight in to my debate techniques, may I suggest you do it in your own "debatable" thread?

 

[Baoh]

Your attempt to over intellectualize a simple subject does nothing to validate your feelings on the matter, nor does it invalidate scientific fact.

I DO have a problem with your practice as it is potentially dangerous and damaging to tortoises. It is also a problem when you try to make seem like its totally fine and with out substantial risk to newbies who might be swayed by your command of the english language in your attempts to make yourself sound more intelligent. If making people aware of potential risks to the health of their animals is evangelizing, then color me guilty.

If you wish to debate the subject further, or share more of your insight in to my debate techniques, may I suggest you do it in your own "debatable" thread?

It is not complex to me, but the underpinnings of the Biology are to neophytes. You have provided no scientific facts and the onus is on the individual making the claim to support his or her argument with supporting evidence. Such is logical defense.

You state that it is potentially dangerous and damaging to tortoises. So is keeping them at all or letting them interact with their environments. It comes to down to acceptable levels of risk. I never said it would be "totally fine" for everyone, nor do I claim the sky is falling when two tortoises of different species so much as exist in the same state.

I do not need to simply sound intelligent. Ideas have their own merits.

As for derailing this thread, I agree. However, you broached the topic in this thread. Mind you, I am well aware of mycoplasma and herpetic viral issues and do not mix anything and everything without evaluation. However, if you would like to specify the myriad xenogeneic pathogens these captive born tortoise species are spreading to each other like an epidemic to support your concerns, please share with verifiable data instead of hearsay.

 

[Tony the tank]

Wow...All of a sudden the place is full of sesquipedalian.... Am I going to have to get a dictionary since this is way above my decoder ring

 

[Baoh]

By the way, as partial amends to the OP, I consider that a reasonable show price. Also, the person manning the booth may not be the owner and not everyone is as up to date or as knowledgeable as we tend to consider ourselves to be. With that said, I prefer to give my business to folks whose setups and care I consider better.

My ranking is like this

1) Availability in the context of a condition (species, sex, and health)

2) Individual excellence (conformation, exceptional quality in appearance)

3) Price

4) Seller

It has to really be a nasty seller in terms of reputation, attitude, and/or history for #4 to come into play for me if one through three are met for a difficult to find animal. That said, sulcata babies are never difficult to find in the US, so you have a lot of selection you can go through if you want. I would focus on external health of the animal. This is often easier to judge in person. Internal health, outside of the overwhelmingly obvious stuff, is not typically going to be determined at a glance. Take your time and find the one that "speaks" to you. It is meant to be a lifelong pet and buddy (and/or breeder for those so inclined). Best of luck with your future chelonian companion.

 

[Yvonne G]

I'm afraid I owe Ana (shadowrancher) a great big apology, as do the other moderators (but I can only speak for myself). I didn't read this thread because I am not up on the prices of tortoises. I read it just now because someone told me Tom was in the hot seat again.

This is everyone's official warning. This thread is about buying hatchlings at a reptile show. And while Ana DID ask for your thoughts on some things she saw at the show, we have taken the thread WAY off on a tangent.

If anyone would like to continue the discussion in the debatable section, please do, but not here on Ana's thread.

Thank you.

 

[ShadowRancher]

Well that's what I get for not being online for a few days
thanks for the relevant info Im just going to leave the rest because I only have one species anyway
I ended up being able to restrain myself and came home with no new hatchlings. And no worries Yvonne, there were probably better places for the topic but it evolved accidentally here and nothing was directed at me, so I'm cool