General questions regarding breeding, conservation, and assurance colonies

DigitalArtDad

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There are sooooo many radiateds being produced compared to Egyptians. They're really easy to obtain, and they're really quite common in the wild. If they weren't common, then poachers wouldn't be able to collect 10,000 of them and put them in a house. The reason why they are listed as an endangered species because they are commercially exploitable and people are poaching them left and right, and there is huge POTENTIAL for them to become extinct in the wild if things keep going the way they are going. But in the U.S., they are firmly established, many people are breeding them, and I imagine it's a challenge for some people to sell their offspring because the market is their state only. Egyptians aren't very fecund, very few people are working with them, and they are nearly extirpated in the wild. Of those two, I'd definitely recommend Egyptians. And they're small too!

-Tom
Well in MO they are not represented in the slightest from what I've found and near impossible to get a hold of. My concern wasn't populating MO with them though just a personal frustration lol. Although I do think there's an argument that can be made for supply and demand when we talk about declining species. It's good to know they are well represented though. I remember reading in the last 20 years their population dropped by 80% in the wild and reading up on the crap show that is politics in Madagascar didn't fill me with too much confidence that they would turn it around.

Still very interesting stuff and I'm loving this feedback thank you so much ill consider all of this as I continue researching
 

zovick

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As one who has worked with Radiated Tortoises since the 1960's (hatched the first CB ones in this country and have bred 3 generations of 100% CB Radiateds), plus been a founding participant in the AZA Species Survival Plan (SSP) for the species before the AZA decided it did not need any private people to participate any longer in 2004, I can tell you that you will get nowhere with Radiated Tortoises and zoos in this country. The AZA has just about forbidden their member zoos to do anything with private people any longer, and this means all species, not just Radiated Tortoises.

Perhaps if a zoo had the last specimen of one sex and a private person had the last specimen of the opposite sex, of a given animal the AZA might make an exception, but other than that, private people are simply out of luck with 99.9% of AZA institutions today.

Then you have the problem with the USFWS and its current mindset regarding CBW Permits, which is that private owners don't need CBW Permits and should not have them. Numerous people I know who used to have CBW Permits for Radiated Tortoises have had their renewals denied in the past 3 years. USFWS just does not want private people to be able to sell any endangered species, so the permits are being denied for Radiated Tortoises and other species as well.

The Egyptian Tortoises would be a much better choice, since they require no CBW Permit. That being said, though, AZA still is not going to get on board with a private owner unless there is no other choice as I mentioned earlier.

I hate to be negative when you have such good intentions, but unfortunately I have been there personally and am just trying to honestly tell you the way things are currently. I basically started three of the AZA SSP programs and studbooks (Radiated Tortoise, Burmese Star Tortoise, and Spider Tortoise) while I was working with John Behler and the New York Zoological Society (now called the Wildlife Conservation Society) and today I cannot even participate in them due to the shortsightedness of the AZA.
 

DigitalArtDad

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As one who has worked with Radiated Tortoises since the 1960's (hatched the first CB ones in this country and have bred 3 generations of 100% CB Radiateds), plus been a founding participant in the AZA Species Survival Plan (SSP) for the species before the AZA decided it did not need any private people to participate any longer in 2004, I can tell you that you will get nowhere with Radiated Tortoises and zoos in this country. The AZA has just about forbidden their member zoos to do anything with private people any longer, and this means all species, not just Radiated Tortoises.

Perhaps if a zoo had the last specimen of one sex and a private person had the last specimen of the opposite sex, of a given animal the AZA might make an exception, but other than that, private people are simply out of luck with 99.9% of AZA institutions today.

Then you have the problem with the USFWS and its current mindset regarding CBW Permits, which is that private owners don't need CBW Permits and should not have them. Numerous people I know who used to have CBW Permits for Radiated Tortoises have had their renewals denied in the past 3 years. USFWS just does not want private people to be able to sell any endangered species, so the permits are being denied for Radiated Tortoises and other species as well.

The Egyptian Tortoises would be a much better choice, since they require no CBW Permit. That being said, though, AZA still is not going to get on board with a private owner unless there is no other choice as I mentioned earlier.

I hate to be negative when you have such good intentions, but unfortunately I have been there personally and am just trying to honestly tell you the way things are currently. I basically started three of the AZA SSP programs and studbooks (Radiated Tortoise, Burmese Star Tortoise, and Spider Tortoise) while I was working with John Behler and the New York Zoological Society (now called the Wildlife Conservation Society) and today I cannot even participate in them due to the shortsightedness of the AZA.
I'm still new to this and won't pretend to know as much as a lot of people here such as yourself but thats what I've been running into as well. Which is exactly what led me hear to ask such a question. It seems counter productive to saving an endangered species to make it almost impossible for others to work with them whatsoever. As I mentioned above I think there's an argument to be made about supply and demand when it comes to this. I understand protecting it and not letting just any ya who off the street start farming an endangered species but at a certain point they have to ask themselves if the "cure" they have come up with to saving them is doing more harm than good. If someone has done the work, acquired the proper permits, and has maintained healthy colonies with regular check ups then I see no reason why they would turn away these breeders and torts.

Radiated are one of the most expensive tortoises I've come across if you're fortunate enough to be able to purchase one. I believe that is because of the rarety of them in the US which in turn would lead to them being poached more in the wild and exported here. Obviously they're exported other places and poached for more reasons than the pet trade but I would think we still have an effect on that value. If they were more common and easier to obtain the price would go down, making them less valuable. Supply and demand? I have nothing to back that up just simple assumptions I've made from my own research.

Also.. eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! Dr. William Zovickian responded to my comment!!! Day made thank you so so much sir!
 
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Tom

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Find species you like to work with and do your best. Don't worry about zoos or wild re-introductions for CB animals in the US. Never going to happen.

Breed the heck out them and keep good records. Try to get a bunch of unrelated animals to start with, so you can have some diverse genes.

Good luck and see you at TTPG.
 

DigitalArtDad

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Find species you like to work with and do your best. Don't worry about zoos or wild re-introductions for CB animals in the US. Never going to happen.

Breed the heck out them and keep good records. Try to get a bunch of unrelated animals to start with, so you can have some diverse genes.

Good luck and see you at TTPG.
Thanks I appreciate it! I already signed up to the TTPG news letter. I'm not sure if I'll be able to attend this year with locking down a new job and trying to buy a new house in that same time frame but it is definitely a must for me now.
Still early in the beginning steps of my ultimate goal of breeding but will continue researching and updating. I'm sure I'll have plenty more questions along the way too lol.
 

zovick

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I'm still new to this and won't pretend to know as much as a lot of people here such as yourself but thats what I've been running into as well. Which is exactly what led me hear to ask such a question. It seems counter productive to saving an endangered species to make it almost impossible for others to work with them whatsoever. As I mentioned above I think there's an argument to be made about supply and demand when it comes to this. I understand protecting it and not letting just any ya who off the street start farming an endangered species but at a certain point they have to ask themselves if the "cure" they have come up with to saving them is doing more harm than good. If someone has done the work, acquired the proper permits, and has maintained healthy colonies with regular check ups then I see no reason why they would turn away these breeders and torts.

Radiated are one of the most expensive tortoises I've come across if you're fortunate enough to be able to purchase one. I believe that is because of the rarety of them in the US which in turn would lead to them being poached more in the wild and exported here. Obviously they're exported other places and poached for more reasons than the pet trade but I would think we still have an effect on that value. If they were more common and easier to obtain the price would go down, making them less valuable. Supply and demand? I have nothing to back that up just simple assumptions I've made from my own research.

Also.. eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! Dr. William Zovickian responded to my comment!!! Day made thank you so so much sir!
Just want to make some points.

First, there is no rarity of Radiated Tortoises in the US today. There are several breeders who produce plenty of them yearly and many more who produce smaller numbers yearly. A couple of my friends who sell a lot of them (or did before the numbers of buyers started being reduced by new buyers not being able to get CBW's) recently did an estimate of the US population of Radiated Tortoises and came up with the number as being approximately 10,000.

Second, with that number of animals in the US already, there is no market for smuggled animals here currently, and there hasn't been one in the US for about 20 years or more. A person would be crazy to try to smuggle a Radiated Tortoise into the US when they are so readily available here today.

The CBW Permit situation will most likely lead to a lot of unreported sales being made within the US, especially since without the permits, there is no mandate for the owners of the Radiated Tortoises to report anything they do with their tortoises to the USFWS. As fewer and fewer people have CBW permits, the USFWS will gradually lose track of all the animals and the transfers which are taking place which must be reported yearly by all permit holders. The USFWS personnel are so short-sighted that they cannot see this on the horizon, but I assure you that this is already happening now.
 

2turtletom

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As one who has worked with Radiated Tortoises since the 1960's (hatched the first CB ones in this country and have bred 3 generations of 100% CB Radiateds), plus been a founding participant in the AZA Species Survival Plan (SSP) for the species before the AZA decided it did not need any private people to participate any longer in 2004, I can tell you that you will get nowhere with Radiated Tortoises and zoos in this country. The AZA has just about forbidden their member zoos to do anything with private people any longer, and this means all species, not just Radiated Tortoises.

Perhaps if a zoo had the last specimen of one sex and a private person had the last specimen of the opposite sex, of a given animal the AZA might make an exception, but other than that, private people are simply out of luck with 99.9% of AZA institutions today.

Then you have the problem with the USFWS and its current mindset regarding CBW Permits, which is that private owners don't need CBW Permits and should not have them. Numerous people I know who used to have CBW Permits for Radiated Tortoises have had their renewals denied in the past 3 years. USFWS just does not want private people to be able to sell any endangered species, so the permits are being denied for Radiated Tortoises and other species as well.

The Egyptian Tortoises would be a much better choice, since they require no CBW Permit. That being said, though, AZA still is not going to get on board with a private owner unless there is no other choice as I mentioned earlier.

I hate to be negative when you have such good intentions, but unfortunately I have been there personally and am just trying to honestly tell you the way things are currently. I basically started three of the AZA SSP programs and studbooks (Radiated Tortoise, Burmese Star Tortoise, and Spider Tortoise) while I was working with John Behler and the New York Zoological Society (now called the Wildlife Conservation Society) and today I cannot even participate in them due to the shortsightedness of the AZA.

Bill you're right it's a "if we need you we'll use you world". Lauren Augustine did a nice presentation on the Cuora bouretti/galbinifrons/picturata studbook at the 2019 TTPG conference...and there are plenty of private keepers' animals in the AZA studbook. Because without those animals, there isn't a program. Just this week news broke that the Columbus Zoo was acquiring big cats from backyard breeders- and they announced they'd be shutting that practice down...but just another example of if a Zoo needs animals, it will get them from wherever they can and the institutional policy excuse is just that- an excuse to shew away well meaning private breeders.
 

TeamZissou

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Egyptians used to be a lot more widespread within Egypt. The usual habitat destruction and collection for the trade has reduced their numbers so much in Egypt that now they are being smuggled in from Libya. Trucks containing thousands of Egyptians get stopped and discovered. They often contain T.g. cyrenaica as a sort of 'by-catch'. Large groups like this end up having a lot of disease and usually can't be released. The Omayed biosphere reserve is one location within Egypt where they go. I imagine that any reintroduction would happen through that organization, or they would simply stay on the preserve.

The problem with reintroduction of any species is that they are prone to be re-poached unless they are placed in a heavily guarded preserve. The Turtle Conservancy's image of the man in camo holding a beautiful yniphora in one hand, and a machine gun in the other comes to mind. Having more captive bred animals out there would reduce incentives for poachers, but its highly dependent on the location of countries demanding the poached animals. Even if breeders in the US produce tons of Egyptians, there's no easy way to send them to wherever the demand is coming from such as Europe, the middle east, Asia, or even Egypt. As Bill already mentioned, there is not much of a market for smuggled animals of either Radiated or Egyptians in the US, which is good, and an indication that people are breeding enough of both. So, I see breeding programs as a means to reduce pressure on wild populations rather than the somewhat romantic idea of an 'assurance colony' that will someday be used to repopulate the wild, whenever poaching ends (if ever).

One potential problem with Egyptians in the US is that the number of founding stock is small. Most of the animals imported in the 90's died shortly after arriving to the US. @PA2019 surveyed several longtime breeders and estimated that most of the Egyptians in the US today originated from as few as 25 individuals. This is worrisome from a genetic diversity standpoint. The only saving grace is that reptile inbreeding is different than mammals. Tom has said in the past that it takes something like 99 generations to get inbreeding in reptiles. So maybe it's virtually impossible if you start with only 25? Either way it is concerning. Is it a reason not go down the Egyptian road? I hope not.

If you haven't done so, I would get all of the TC's "The Tortoise" magazines and read them. They have a lot of great info about the status of the illegal trade as well as conservation activities. I would also recommend Schramm and Biedenweg's book on Egyptians.
 

DigitalArtDad

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I've been reading mind numbing conservation legislation for Missouri all night and am digesting all of this great information here. It's one gut punch after another with you guys lol. Just kidding! I appreciate the honesty very much and this is some of the most informative information I've come across on the subject.
 

zovick

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Bill you're right it's a "if we need you we'll use you world". Lauren Augustine did a nice presentation on the Cuora bouretti/galbinifrons/picturata studbook at the 2019 TTPG conference...and there are plenty of private keepers' animals in the AZA studbook. Because without those animals, there isn't a program. Just this week news broke that the Columbus Zoo was acquiring big cats from backyard breeders- and they announced they'd be shutting that practice down...but just another example of if a Zoo needs animals, it will get them from wherever they can and the institutional policy excuse is just that- an excuse to shew away well meaning private breeders.
In the beginning, it was the same with Radiated Tortoises, Burmese Stars, etc. There were very few animals in the country, so both zoo's and private breeders' animals were listed in the studbooks, and specific breeding pairs were suggested by the studbook keepers to keep the bloodlines as diverse as possible. As time went by, the zoos eventually had enough animals to sustain the desired genetic diversity, space was becoming a problem for them, and certain zoos and private breeders were told they were not to breed their animals (except once every 5 years) in many cases. This did not sit well with me or most private breeders that I know/knew. The zoos did not mind this not breeding for 5 years folly because they had less young tortoises for which to find room and provide care, etc., and as a result, their workload was lightened. Anyone who has bred tortoises knows that you can't just separate the pair for 5 years, put them back together and voila, get more babies immediately. It was a bad idea, but was supported by the AZA for the reasons I mentioned.

Another big problem with zoos and private breeders both being in the same breeding program is that in many cases, the animals must be swapped around between facilities to get the best genetic diversity. Most private breeders do not want to send their animals to a zoo for several years for breeding. I did so, but at a very great cost to myself. I had 1.1 Astrochelys yniphora (which I personally legally owned) adults both die in separate incidents while they were "out on loan" to certain institutions. I was never able to replace them, and forever lost my chance to breed that species.

Likewise, zoos are reluctant to send their prized animals to any place other than another AZA institution for fear of theft, disease, or just losing their chance to be "the first to breed" any given species. Since my good friend John Behler died in 2006, relationships between the AZA zoos and private individuals have deteriorated steadily, at least as far as chelonian conservation is concerned. John always recognized the value of the private sector, which today's leaders do not.
 
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DigitalArtDad

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Egyptians used to be a lot more widespread within Egypt. The usual habitat destruction and collection for the trade has reduced their numbers so much in Egypt that now they are being smuggled in from Libya. Trucks containing thousands of Egyptians get stopped and discovered. They often contain T.g. cyrenaica as a sort of 'by-catch'. Large groups like this end up having a lot of disease and usually can't be released. The Omayed biosphere reserve is one location within Egypt where they go. I imagine that any reintroduction would happen through that organization, or they would simply stay on the preserve.

The problem with reintroduction of any species is that they are prone to be re-poached unless they are placed in a heavily guarded preserve. The Turtle Conservancy's image of the man in camo holding a beautiful yniphora in one hand, and a machine gun in the other comes to mind. Having more captive bred animals out there would reduce incentives for poachers, but its highly dependent on the location of countries demanding the poached animals. Even if breeders in the US produce tons of Egyptians, there's no easy way to send them to wherever the demand is coming from such as Europe, the middle east, Asia, or even Egypt. As Bill already mentioned, there is not much of a market for smuggled animals of either Radiated or Egyptians in the US, which is good, and an indication that people are breeding enough of both. So, I see breeding programs as a means to reduce pressure on wild populations rather than the somewhat romantic idea of an 'assurance colony' that will someday be used to repopulate the wild, whenever poaching ends (if ever).

One potential problem with Egyptians in the US is that the number of founding stock is small. Most of the animals imported in the 90's died shortly after arriving to the US. @PA2019 surveyed several longtime breeders and estimated that most of the Egyptians in the US today originated from as few as 25 individuals. This is worrisome from a genetic diversity standpoint. The only saving grace is that reptile inbreeding is different than mammals. Tom has said in the past that it takes something like 99 generations to get inbreeding in reptiles. So maybe it's virtually impossible if you start with only 25? Either way it is concerning. Is it a reason not go down the Egyptian road? I hope not.

If you haven't done so, I would get all of the TC's "The Tortoise" magazines and read them. They have a lot of great info about the status of the illegal trade as well as conservation activities. I would also recommend Schramm and Biedenweg's book on Egyptians.
This may seem like a dumb question im just trying to get the full scope.. When you say breeding programs what are you referring to? When I think of breeding programs my mind thinks either for selling in the pet trade, assurance colonies, or for donating to zoos/ nature centers and that sort of thing. Is there another purpose for breeding programs I'm missing?
There's 2 reasons I wanted to pursue my goal. First is because I don't want to see these species go extinct and if I could ha e a hand in helping I think that would be great obviously. The second is because I'm fascinated with all aspects of their life cycle and to be able to hatch an egg of my own I think would be amazing. Also I know with all animals a breeding animal is a good sign of a healthy animal.
I figured if I'm going to try and breed them I want to do it with a purpose and not just my own personal zoo. Originally I was against selling them and still kind of feel bad about it. No offense to any breeders here. The more I look into this though it seems the pet trade does have a hand in conservation as I've mentioned supply and demand.
Also looking into breeding laws from what I can tell, I'm no lawyer, the only paperwork I would need is if I'm going to sell them. Unless I'm breeding a native species to Missouri. Is that correct..?
Sorry for all the questions.. finding this information in black and white is proving difficult. I plan on contacting USFWS as well to see if they can give me some more specific information but figured I woukd try here first
 

ZenHerper

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Every state is different. Contact your Wildlife (Natural Resources) people directly.

At a certain point, for large sales operations, the USDA gets involved.

Where I live (last I looked), the state predicates large/professional/non-casual seller licensing on USDA approval/inspections.

It's easiest and best to get with your state folks for up-to-date info and support.
 

DigitalArtDad

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Every state is different. Contact your Wildlife (Natural Resources) people directly.

At a certain point, for large sales operations, the USDA gets involved.

Where I live (last I looked), the state predicates large/professional/non-casual seller licensing on USDA approval/inspections.

It's easiest and best to get with your state folks for up-to-date info and support.
Ya I've been looking at my state legislation and I can find specifics for native species but when it comes to exotic it reads like it's basically free game unless it's a few specific species, endangered to US, or a class 2 wildlife. Sounds like I need to just call them to find out.
On a side note reading over these missouri legislations is comical as well as confusing. No bear wrestling for instance, comical. Or the fact that I can only have 5 snapping turtles but I can fish for 2 a day if I wanted and do as I will with them as long as it's not keep them.. It's all so confusing lol
Thanks
 

TeamZissou

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How did Radiated, yniphora, Bolsons, Galapagos, and the others end up on the ESA while other CITES I Burmese star, Egyptians, etc did not? I can see how the ESA acts as a deterrent for smuggled animals since Americans in America would be prosecuted. Was there a time when Radiated were being smuggled into the US in large num
This may seem like a dumb question im just trying to get the full scope.. When you say breeding programs what are you referring to? When I think of breeding programs my mind thinks either for selling in the pet trade, assurance colonies, or for donating to zoos/ nature centers and that sort of thing. Is there another purpose for breeding programs I'm missing?
There's 2 reasons I wanted to pursue my goal. First is because I don't want to see these species go extinct and if I could ha e a hand in helping I think that would be great obviously. The second is because I'm fascinated with all aspects of their life cycle and to be able to hatch an egg of my own I think would be amazing. Also I know with all animals a breeding animal is a good sign of a healthy animal.
I figured if I'm going to try and breed them I want to do it with a purpose and not just my own personal zoo. Originally I was against selling them and still kind of feel bad about it. No offense to any breeders here. The more I look into this though it seems the pet trade does have a hand in conservation as I've mentioned supply and demand.
Also looking into breeding laws from what I can tell, I'm no lawyer, the only paperwork I would need is if I'm going to sell them. Unless I'm breeding a native species to Missouri. Is that correct..?
Sorry for all the questions.. finding this information in black and white is proving difficult. I plan on contacting USFWS as well to see if they can give me some more specific information but figured I woukd try here first

By 'breeding programs' I meant captive breeding for the trade, as in the personal breeding programs that members of the forum undertake. Producing more captive bred tortoises reduces the incentives for poachers to go collect them from the wild in theory, since there should be less demand.
 

zovick

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This may seem like a dumb question im just trying to get the full scope.. When you say breeding programs what are you referring to? When I think of breeding programs my mind thinks either for selling in the pet trade, assurance colonies, or for donating to zoos/ nature centers and that sort of thing. Is there another purpose for breeding programs I'm missing?
There's 2 reasons I wanted to pursue my goal. First is because I don't want to see these species go extinct and if I could ha e a hand in helping I think that would be great obviously. The second is because I'm fascinated with all aspects of their life cycle and to be able to hatch an egg of my own I think would be amazing. Also I know with all animals a breeding animal is a good sign of a healthy animal.
I figured if I'm going to try and breed them I want to do it with a purpose and not just my own personal zoo. Originally I was against selling them and still kind of feel bad about it. No offense to any breeders here. The more I look into this though it seems the pet trade does have a hand in conservation as I've mentioned supply and demand.
Also looking into breeding laws from what I can tell, I'm no lawyer, the only paperwork I would need is if I'm going to sell them. Unless I'm breeding a native species to Missouri. Is that correct..?
Sorry for all the questions.. finding this information in black and white is proving difficult. I plan on contacting USFWS as well to see if they can give me some more specific information but figured I woukd try here first
There is a matter of semantics here.

To amateurs, a "breeding program" generally means that the person accumulates some individuals of the species he/she wishes to breed and begins trying to reproduce them. That is their "breeding program". Whether or not there is success, it is still that person's breeding program.

To professional herpetologists, a breeding program generally means being part of a Species Survival Plan (SSP) or similar established breeding program for which there is a studbook maintained by a studbook keeper. The studbook lists all of the animals in the program and their parents (if known). In this way, inbreeding can be avoided or at least controlled by the studbook keeper by directing the participants which animal to breed, when to breed it, and to which other animal to breed it. Many times, animals are sent to distant zoos to be bred or not bred at all to avoid producing too many offspring with the same exact parents.

Most private owners will not cooperate with programs such as that described above because in the backs of their minds, they would like to be able sell some of their offspring to recoup their initial investments. Additionally, most private owners have no desire to send their animals to someone else to be bred, or to avoid breeding their animals altogether, etc., etc.
 

ZenHerper

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Ya I've been looking at my state legislation and I can find specifics for native species but when it comes to exotic it reads like it's basically free game unless it's a few specific species, endangered to US, or a class 2 wildlife. Sounds like I need to just call them to find out.
On a side note reading over these missouri legislations is comical as well as confusing. No bear wrestling for instance, comical. Or the fact that I can only have 5 snapping turtles but I can fish for 2 a day if I wanted and do as I will with them as long as it's not keep them.. It's all so confusing lol
Thanks
Common Snappers are not protected in NJ (prolific little dinosaurs).

I'm guessing the MO regs are permitting folks to catch them for food, but not keep large numbers as pets/breeders.

I don't think bears can be permitted here. But no clear prohibition against wrestling them...
 

TeamZissou

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How did Radiated, yniphora, Bolsons, Galapagos, and the others end up on the ESA while other CITES I Burmese star, Egyptians, etc did not? I can see how the ESA acts as a deterrent for smuggled animals since Americans in America would be prosecuted. Was there a time when Radiated were being smuggled into the US in large num


By 'breeding programs' I meant captive breeding for the trade, as in the personal breeding programs that members of the forum undertake. Producing more captive bred tortoises reduces the incentives for poachers to go collect them from the wild in theory, since there should be less demand.

My apologies, a partial question that I had typed up got stored by the forum and accidentally got included with my other reply. It was too off topic so I never asked it.
 

DigitalArtDad

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There is a matter of semantics here.

To amateurs, a "breeding program" generally means that the person accumulates some individuals of the species he/she wishes to breed and begins trying to reproduce them. That is their "breeding program". Whether or not there is success, it is still that person's breeding program.

To professional herpetologists, a breeding program generally means being part of a Species Survival Plan (SSP) or similar established breeding program for which there is a studbook maintained by a studbook keeper. The studbook lists all of the animals in the program and their parents (if known). In this way, inbreeding can be avoided or at least controlled by the studbook keeper by directing the participants which animal to breed, when to breed it, and to which other animal to breed it. Many times, animals are sent to distant zoos to be bred or not bred at all to avoid producing too many offspring with the same exact parents.

Most private owners will not cooperate with programs such as that described above because in the backs of their minds, they would like to be able sell some of their offspring to recoup their initial investments. Additionally, most private owners have no desire to send their animals to someone else to be bred, or to avoid breeding their animals altogether, etc., etc.
Thank you for specifying! This forum is giving me a lot to think about. Luckily I have plenty of time to work all this out. I guess my main concern is just being responsible with whatever I do
 

DigitalArtDad

Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2021
Messages
36
Location (City and/or State)
SAINT JOSEPH
Common Snappers are not protected in NJ (prolific little dinosaurs).

I'm guessing the MO regs are permitting folks to catch them for food, but not keep large numbers as pets/breeders.

I don't think bears can be permitted here. But no clear prohibition against wrestling them...
Well if you wrestle any bears make sure to record it. Haven't seen any good bear wrestling action since the state banned it. /s
 
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