Franklin and the vet

[Skyler Nell]

So, I took Franklin to the Vet yesterday.
I went to the one list here on the tortoise forum, for Anaheim CA and wasn't to happy
The place was dirty, and filled with cats running around.

He explained that Franklin was in dire shape, which i don't see how that could be true since I see him running all over his cage, eating like a pig and using the little tortoises' room. The vet said he thought Franklin had a Vitamin A deficiency, parasites and URTI. Is that even possible?

I feel like a bad mom right now, or like we went to a bad vet, he wanted to give him a Vitamin A shot, which I disagreed to because Franklin is soo so tiny, and I didn't trust the vet to much at that point, I said "You want to give a injection to a tortoise that tiny?" and he said "no maybe you're right." after that I just couldn't wait to get Franklin out of there.

He gave me Baytril, and dewormed Franklin. So Donatello and Franklin are being kept seperately for now. I wouldn't recommend this Vet to anyone else in the Southern CA area!

 

[Orpexo]

I had a similar experience with a vet not long ago. Turns out not many vets know tortoises well enough, even if they know reptiles in general. Give us a pict of Franklin with his weight and size, our experienced members would contradict the vet and your 'bad mom' feeling will go away in no time

What's URTI?
The vet allready dewormed Franklin? did he use panacur or something else? Did he tell you to do it again in 12 days?

 

[Kristina]

Good call on the Vit. A shot. I would never ever ever allow a vet to administer one, to any size tortoise.

I am sorry you had a bad experience I hope Franklin feels better soon.

 

[Skyler Nell]

To be honest, I'm not exactly sure.
I kept asking questions before he did everything but I got hardly any answers! URTI- upper respiratory tract infection.
He never even weighed Franklin, wouldn't that be needed to figure out how much to dilute the Baytril?
I was just so upset after leaving, he was so rough, I though little Franklin's neck would snap! I kept saying wait, and stop and the Vet was actually annoyed with me
He told me that I could administer the baytril orally (because I said no to that injection as well), if I thought it was so easy.
It was, I just sat Franklin on my leg and held out a piece of endive, he opened his mouth to bite it and he bit down on the syringe (not sharp) instead. Then he ate up all his food, much less traumatizing then how the vet did it!
Franklin was definitely pouting yesterday! He forgave me after some pumpkin.

---

thanks for letting us know about this vet skyler. Im familiar with which one you are talking about and being in long beach I was relying on them being my safest/closest herp vet. Looks like Ive gotta find another "just incase" place.

I have visited tri-city vet hospital.
Also in Anaheim, a little pricier, and the vet told me she wasn't an expert but had hatched and raised tortoises. She was great!
I think they would be a good add to the vet list

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Tell one of the moderators the name of that Vet and get it removed from the list. I am the one who put the list together and I just called and made sure they all saw exotics, but there was no way for me to know if they were good or not. So I apologize for that one.
Good call on the Vit A shot. Never allow that for a tortoise no matter what size. Baytril tastes pretty bad so he may wise up in the future and not take it so well. I hope he gets better soon. Baytril also gives them an upset tummy so be prepared for him to stop eating maybe...

 

[Annieski]

If it is really a URI---wouldn't you have seen some symptom? If you continue with the Baytril--I would also up the day and night temps a bit, for at least until the antibiotic is finished. My experience with Mortimer and a URI---Vet said it was perfectly ok to put "liquid" antibiotic on food to make sure it got in him. And yes, after a couple of doses---he caught on---so I made sure I had a piece of prickly pear to disguise the taste. Good luck!

 

[sara]

I know giving shots to a baby isnt good for them , so I also wouldnt alow it. But are all shots bad even for the older ones? I have herd vit. A isnt good to give as a shot, what are others to be aware of? I also have a hard time finding a vet for Bert. I believe the closest is 2 hrs away in colorado.
Being nieve about tort and vet care, what should i be aware of? I guess it wouuld be the same if I had to use a vet for the horses or dogs. Guess its best to go on my instinct if i feel comfertable or not with that vet. wish they taught more about that in vet school.

---

To be honest, I'm not exactly sure.
I kept asking questions before he did everything but I got hardly any answers! URTI- upper respiratory tract infection.
He never even weighed Franklin, wouldn't that be needed to figure out how much to dilute the Baytril?
I was just so upset after leaving, he was so rough, I though little Franklin's neck would snap! I kept saying wait, and stop and the Vet was actually annoyed with me
He told me that I could administer the baytril orally (because I said no to that injection as well), if I thought it was so easy.
It was, I just sat Franklin on my leg and held out a piece of endive, he opened his mouth to bite it and he bit down on the syringe (not sharp) instead. Then he ate up all his food, much less traumatizing then how the vet did it!
Franklin was definitely pouting yesterday! He forgave me after some pumpkin.

---

thanks for letting us know about this vet skyler. Im familiar with which one you are talking about and being in long beach I was relying on them being my safest/closest herp vet. Looks like Ive gotta find another "just incase" place.

I have visited tri-city vet hospital.
Also in Anaheim, a little pricier, and the vet told me she wasn't an expert but had hatched and raised tortoises. She was great!
I think they would be a good add to the vet list

---

aww, Franklin is a little love bug!! and he looks pretty good munching down on that leaf!!

 

[Orpexo]

out of topic but I'm curious about something, does Franklin or Donatello play with the ball we can see on the picture or just ignore it?

 

[Angi]

If he does have a vitamin A defitincy maybe some shredded carrot swould help. I don't think it could hurt even if he isn't lacking vit. A. I use a potato peeler to shred carrots. I don't feed them very often

 

[Yvonne G]

I was curious why you took him to the vet? I looked back over your previous posts and didn't see anywhere that you said he was ill or showing any symptoms.

I don't like to use an antibiotic unless I'm darned sure there is something in the tortoise that requires the use of an antibiotic. Baytril is the best one for a respiratory infection, but if the tortoise doesn't have a RI, I don't think the antibiotic should be used. And the only way, the ONLY WAY to tell if the infection is present is by doing a smear, testing it and looking at it through the microscope. If your vet didn't do that, then you don't know for sure if the infection is present.

Desert tortoises are the absolute easiest tortoises to treat of all of them. They open their mouths for you with the slightest pressure. They keep their heads out so you can administer to them...not closing up tightly. If you truly DO feel that there is an infection, then the oral Baytril is quite easy to do on a desert tortoise.

By the way, Franklin is just too precious!!

 

[Kristina]

Swollen eyes, and runny nose is why she took him to the vet. She tried bumping up the temp and doing baby food soaks for at least a week prior, and there was no improvement.

http://tortoiseforum.org/Thread-just-want-to-make-sure-opinions-needed

 

[Skyler Nell]

Kristina- Thanks!

Yvonne- Do you think I should stop the Baytril until I can go to another vet? I'm not sold that it is a URTI.

Orpexo- They actually do! I don't often see it, when I touch it or roll it towards them, they'll run over. And it's always moved all over the enclosure

Personally, I think parasites is the more likely cause. Can parasites cause their immune system to be down?? Because Donatello was originally the one sick, a long time before I even got Franklin. I took him to the vet and he was treated for URTI, although no tests were taken to prove he actually had that. He was given Baytril, but his environment was altered at the same time. He went from nearly dead, in a 10 gallon glass tank, to alive and thriving after change in diet, a large tortoise table, new lighting and frequent trips outside. Franklin was healthy until he was introduced to Donatello. Then they both have the same symptoms:
Swollen eyes
Slightly runny poo
Very slightly runny nose
Both are still eating and active!

---

Kristina- Thanks!

Yvonne- Do you think I should stop the Baytril until I can go to another vet? I'm not sold that it is a URTI.

Orpexo- They actually do! I don't often see it, when I touch it or roll it towards them, they'll run over. And it's always moved all over the enclosure

Personally, I think parasites is the more likely cause. Can parasites cause their immune system to be down?? Because Donatello was originally the one sick, a long time before I even got Franklin. I took him to the vet and he was treated for URTI, although no tests were taken to prove he actually had that. He was given Baytril, but his environment was altered at the same time. He went from nearly dead, in a 10 gallon glass tank, to alive and thriving after change in diet, a large tortoise table, new lighting and frequent trips outside. Franklin was healthy until he was introduced to Donatello. Then they both have the same symptoms:
Swollen eyes
Slightly runny poo
Very slightly runny nose
Both are still eating and active!

 

[Laura]

If you do the warm water soaks with the Bird Vitamins in it.. he should get enough that way...

 

[Skyler Nell]

is any kind of bird vitamins okay?
The vet said that only avi-con brand would work...
But I think he was just trying to get me to buy from him...
Any input?
Thanks for all your help so far!

 

[Yvonne G]

Any brand of liquid, water-soluble bird vitamins is ok to use. You do what you feel comfortable doing. I don't want to be the one to tell you to not use the Baytril. I'm NOT a vet and I didn't see your tortoise.

I can only give you my opinion, and that is if it were my tortoise I wouldn't use Baytril unless the correct test was done to be sure there was an infection present.

Like Laura said, you can get vitamins into him through soaking in warm water. And with the swollen eyes, I'd even add a bit of either squash or carrot human baby food to the soaking water. That will eliminate the puffy eyes.

 

[Madkins007]

You may want to read the Respiratory Infections for Tortoise Keepers article I posted yesterday. Swollen eyes and nasal discharge are the main signs of Upper Respiratory Tract Disease (URTD).

The bad news is that Desert Torts are ESPECIALLY susceptible to this very hard to treat disease. The main bacteria involved, Mycoplasa, cannot really be treated with any known antibiotic, and the main infection makes secondary infections very likely.

You mentioned tests- it is very difficult to culture Mycoplasma. Most of the diagnosis will be the combination of a susceptible species, puffy eyes, and eye or nose discharge. Being a young tortoise also makes this very likely.

The main treatment plan is to reduce the pathogen load in the tortoise with proper medication, reduce the pathogen load in the habitat with quarantine and a thorough cleaning/disinfection, and boosting the immune system with low stress, warmth, etc.

URTD's are VERY INFECTIOUS and tortoises housed together will almost certainly pass the infection back and forth between them.

If you are in California, you may want to contact the California Turtle and Tortoise Club, www.tortoise.org. They generally have a lot of good info on Desert Tortoises, vets, etc. they might be able to help you with.

(All medical info in this note came from Mader's "Reptile Medicine and Surgery")

 

[Olympia]

I am reading this thread and fell very much guilty. Our experience with Olympia was so bad at the beginning when she just arrived, and I didn't know about this forum at that time. According to what I read here, it seams that we did all possible mistakes. We took her to the vet, which diagnosed Olympia with RI, by listening to her lungs. She did give her a shot of antibiotic, actually 3 ones, we had to come back for another 2 each week. And also found parasites in her feces and with Gavage technique inserted medication to her stomach. Was all these wrong of her to do???? Did I choose a bad vet?

Olympia, compare to Franklin did have bad symptoms, she didn't eat or move and had eyes infection, she could hardly open her eyes. When we arrived to the vet, it seems like a nice place, clean and friendly and the vet her self has tortoise at home, so I felt like I could trust her. And also I am very new to all this. Was I so wrong to agree for injections??? Is my vet not so good as I thought?

I have to say that the antibiotic treatment helped a lot and I even think saved Olympia's life, but may be a less aggressive treatment would have helped as well???

Michal

I was curious why you took him to the vet? I looked back over your previous posts and didn't see anywhere that you said he was ill or showing any symptoms.

I don't like to use an antibiotic unless I'm darned sure there is something in the tortoise that requires the use of an antibiotic. Baytril is the best one for a respiratory infection, but if the tortoise doesn't have a RI, I don't think the antibiotic should be used. And the only way, the ONLY WAY to tell if the infection is present is by doing a smear, testing it and looking at it through the microscope. If your vet didn't do that, then you don't know for sure if the infection is present.

Desert tortoises are the absolute easiest tortoises to treat of all of them. They open their mouths for you with the slightest pressure. They keep their heads out so you can administer to them...not closing up tightly. If you truly DO feel that there is an infection, then the oral Baytril is quite easy to do on a desert tortoise.

By the way, Franklin is just too precious!!

 

[Skyler Nell]

I am reading this thread and fell very much guilty. Our experience with Olympia was so bad at the beginning when she just arrived, and I didn't know about this forum at that time. According to what I read here, it seams that we did all possible mistakes. We took her to the vet, which diagnosed Olympia with RI, by listening to her lungs. She did give her a shot of antibiotic, actually 3 ones, we had to come back for another 2 each week. And also found parasites in her feces and with Gavage technique inserted medication to her stomach. Was all these wrong of her to do???? Did I choose a bad vet?

Olympia, compare to Franklin did have bad symptoms, she didn't eat or move and had eyes infection, she could hardly open her eyes. When we arrived to the vet, it seems like a nice place, clean and friendly and the vet her self has tortoise at home, so I felt like I could trust her. And also I am very new to all this. Was I so wrong to agree for injections??? Is my vet not so good as I thought?

I have to say that the antibiotic treatment helped a lot and I even think saved Olympia's life, but may be a less aggressive treatment would have helped as well???

Michal

No, it's not always a bad choice! It was just the wrong one for me because Franklin seemed otherwise healthy! If Olympia couldn't eat or move around that was probably your only option! Good choice
I'm going to take Donatello in to the old vet and see if we can get him tested and what not (since he is bigger).

Madkins007- What is your opinion about the Baytril, now that I've started the course, should I continue it?
It's very hard on him, he doesn't move around nearly as much after he gets it. I feel so bad.

Anyone?? Opinions on this?? PLEASE!!

 

[Yvonne G]

I am reading this thread and fell very much guilty. Our experience with Olympia was so bad at the beginning when she just arrived, and I didn't know about this forum at that time. According to what I read here, it seams that we did all possible mistakes. We took her to the vet, which diagnosed Olympia with RI, by listening to her lungs. She did give her a shot of antibiotic, actually 3 ones, we had to come back for another 2 each week. And also found parasites in her feces and with Gavage technique inserted medication to her stomach. Was all these wrong of her to do???? Did I choose a bad vet?

If your tortoise improved after your vet visit, then you did the absolute right thing in taking the tortoise to that vet. You can't compare your tortoise to someone else's just from reading about it online. Thank goodness your tortoise is ok!