Food Amount /Pyramiding

[llamas55]

This is the amount of food my redfoot got today (and ate in about 2-3 minutes!)...it is 2-3 leaves, a tiny blob of squash, a dab of strawberry, tiny slice of fig she ignored as it is her first, a wee dab of banana she gets no more than monthly....and she formerly would have gotten a slice of frozen bean and maybe 1-2 kernals of corn. So what do I need to cut back on, or have I now by deleting the higher cal corn and bean?
She gets weekly a crumb of egg yolk or piece of wet dog food. I HATE seeing this pyramiding. I skip maybe one day every 7-10 days or just give her a leaf or two. She is 1.5# maybe 3-4 years old and her bottom shell is 5".
As an aside, she stopped the eye tearing as everyone said, when I raised the humidity this week. temp still too low except on her flat heating area...I have to solve the ceramic bulb melting the shower curtain cover.
THANKS all. Patricia/MN
and ps do you really think they don't care if they are alone, as most suggest?

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the guy who sent her to me from CA (forgetting to mention her plastron was eaten away) did not know
I think we're going to need better head shots, will post more later.
thanks, Patricia
View attachment 3333View attachment 3333

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Is this a good enough head shot to show which shape she is, red foot or cherry head?
thanks all

 

[Redfoot NERD]

My 10+ years of raising redfoots has shown that the diet is NOT the culprit here! [ I wish there were some way to shut down or shut up those that "claim" that diet effects the condition of a redfoot's carapace! ]

The lack of "ambient" HUMIDITY does it!

Although your diet is far from most desireable.. they are most forgiving and will 'spring-back' to new health once their diet is in order.

READ everything we have put together in the 'redfoot' links in my signature below. If someone elses caresheet does not show the results of what they prescribe.. they must not be very sure of it - it doesn't work - or they don't care! Make sense?

Typical early '05 hatchlings raised on our caresheet..

You can prevent FURTHER pyramiding.. not fix it.

Hope this helps...

NERD

BTW.. that IS a redfoot from Brazil.. AKA 'cherryhead'.. and is a redfoot tortoise!

 

[llamas55]

all right, thanks Terry....so now that her humidity is 85% it should go better as far as no further pyramiding
(and it looks like missing plastron shell from when I got her from shell rot that I arrested with betadine will not replace either>)
***I thought basically on all the care sheets food was about 1/3 fruit 1/3 veggies and 1/3 leaves? not so? and be careful on the protein for not too much?*** I was trying to cut back on the caloric things because I misunderstood the pyramiding.
so a cherryhead from Brazil? thanks.
I am listening hard to the posts and care sheets, so hope I'm improving fast!

 

[tortoisenerd]

Also if you just got her, this pyramiding is from her previous conditions. Sounds like humidity is on track. Terry has great diet advice.

 

[matt41gb]

What kind of substrate are you using? It looks too damp which I'm thinking your red foot isn't receiving enough air exchange in his enclosure. Mold and bacteria love that kind of environment. They don't have to be wet all the time. Your red foot really doesn't look that bad pyramiding wise. Just do what Terry suggests and you should be good.

 

[llamas55]

the pyramiding has just begun.
it IS too moist in there now as of this week, trying to correct the bad humidity by adding lots of sphagnum so now I have to get her shell contact areas dryer, but her eyes did stop running and she acts happier. It is dry in half her hidey hole log tunnel where the plastic heating pad is half in the hide and half out, but the vivarium is far from correct yet, and I've had her 18 months. She did have a smooth shell when I got her.
I did look at Terry's food size samples but would like them for every day and a few more.
I'm reading and re-reading tips like crazy to see what to do next, as she came with horrible shell rot, the plastron almost gone, 18 mos. ago
Do other people's cherry heads grow at about one oz. a month also?
THANKS for comments all, they are SO helpful.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

The cypress in the 2nd pic looks real wet because that pic was taken in the 'nest-box'.

NERD

 

[Jacqui]

Be sure to read the information at:
http://redfoottortoise.com/
and other good sites are out there too. My major advice is not to just learn from one site, none are perfect. I know I like to give a mixture of food, not just fruit one day, greens the next, plus I like a lot of variety in my tortoises diets.

I can recommend this site because as a test, I have been for the last few years raising a Redfoot (which I bought from Joe) and followed his care sheets. He is showing no pyramiding.

As to a site being "bad" because it may not show as many pictures of their tortoises, maybe like me, they just aren't major photo takers? Or maybe just don't have them posted on the site, but would love to show you some if you ask.

Myself, I am lerry of those who are always bragging on themselves. My belief is if your ideas are good, they will not need to be constantly bragged about or others knocked down. Just my opinion, take it for what it's worth.

 

[llamas55]

Jacqui which care sheets are Joe's where are they posted?
been looking at so many my head is reeling!
thanks, P

 

[Jacqui]

http://redfoottortoise.com/ That is Joe's site.

Sounds like a wonderful caretaker searching around and reading several sites and threads on care for your special young charge! It will slowly get clearer and easier as you go and start trying things and tweaking them to come up with what works best for your tortoise and yourself, too.

 

[terryo]

It is so hard for someone just geting started. There is so much conflicting advice. Two years ago I was in tears reading all the care sheets out there. Some people incorporate all the care sheets and that works for them....
I went on a forum a few weeks ago and gave someone advice as to why her guy was starting to pyramid....told her it wasn't the food and it was the lack of humidity. Boy...I will never give any advice like that again. I almost got thrown off the forum...Everyone posted against this advice and said it was everything combined...food...humidity...UVB...I really felt like an idiot. Sorry, Terry K. nothing against you, and you know I always use your care sheets...but as I have to agree with Jacqui...only because there are many long-term breeders out there that disagree with each other. Very scary IMO.

 

[Jacqui]

It is so hard for someone just geting started. There is so much conflicting advice. Two years ago I was in tears reading all the care sheets out there. Some people incorporate all the care sheets and that works for them....
I went on a forum a few weeks ago and gave someone advice as to why her guy was starting to pyramid....told her it wasn't the food and it was the lack of humidity. Boy...I will never give any advice like that again. I almost got thrown off the forum...Everyone posted against this advice and said it was everything combined...food...humidity...UVB...I really felt like an idiot. Sorry, Terry K. nothing against you, and you know I always use your care sheets...but as I have to agree with Jacqui...only because there are many long-term breeders out there that disagree with each other. Very scary IMO.

It's a shame that so much of what we know, is still more guesses. Takes so many years to really do experiements with long range results. Can only hope some day we may have more concrete answers rather than the usual "it depends".

Terry, do not stop giving advice! You are not an idiot! You gave good advice and what is currently the leading best guess for the leading cause. They were right too, just maybe they could have been kinder in how they replied to your post?

I do know how ya feel. I get a few "slaps" when I disagree with Terry K (plus folks feel I "hate" him, which is far from the truth. Don't tell him this, but I actually do respect him, which is why I am okay with challenging his ideas). I think that by giving other ideas and thoughts, we actually get more thoughts and better care for our animals out there for everybody. Which isn't that the entire point?

 

[Redfoot NERD]

It is so hard for someone just geting started. There is so much conflicting advice. Two years ago I was in tears reading all the care sheets out there. Some people incorporate all the care sheets and that works for them....
I went on a forum a few weeks ago and gave someone advice as to why her guy was starting to pyramid....told her it wasn't the food and it was the lack of humidity. Boy...I will never give any advice like that again. I almost got thrown off the forum...Everyone posted against this advice and said it was everything combined...food...humidity...UVB...I really felt like an idiot. Sorry, Terry K. nothing against you, and you know I always use your care sheets...but as I have to agree with Jacqui...only because there are many long-term breeders out there that disagree with each other. Very scary IMO.

You are right TerryO.. Some of the 'sites out there will eat you alive because you "question" or bring light to something they are doing!

Regardless how much I try to help by including pics of results FOR THE "NEW" KEEPERS.. I eventually get grief and accused of bragging. How many times have I said that there are as many different ways of caring for redfoots as there are those that claim they are caring for them?

"This is how I do it...... these are the results"! See links in my signature.
That makes me a BRAGGADOCIO.... ?

Terry K

 

[Madkins007]

As far as the amount of food- it is best to keep Red-foots a little hungry, but a 1.5lb Red-foot needs about 20 calories a day if it is just sitting there, about 40 if it is active and growing.

I don't figure out the calories in each meal I serve, but every so often I do just to make sure I am not too far high or low.

For the foods you listed, the calories are:
- Dandelions- 23 calories in about 1 cup of chopped leaves
- Squash- 19 calories in about 1 medium squash
- strawberry- 4 calories in a medium berry
- fig- 37 calories in a medium fig

I'm guessing your meal there was about 20ish calories or less as a sheer guess. You can throw some greens in there and be fine, as well as keeping him busy for longer.

(Calorie calculator, per Dr. Mader, "Reptile Surgery and Medicine" and others: weight in kilograms to the -0.75th power (yes, a negative power) times 32 (or, (weight/kg.^-0.75) x 32) gives you the resting calorie needs. You increase this 50 to 100% for active, growing, breeding, laying, etc. tortoises. Food values from www.elook.org)

 

[terryo]

Comments are my opinion based on my years (+20 yrs) experience/lots of reading/research. Take anything I say with a grain of salt, as you should with anybody. Try things that sound correct, tweak things, never stop trying to improve the world you create for your animals.
Wow! One of the best things I've ever read. I love it!


This is how I do it...... these are the [u](my) [/u]results"! See links in my signature.[/u]
One of the best things you've ever said...you should include that in your signature..all the time.

 

[llamas55]

Silly me, that was Joe's link you gave, and read it- thanks
I think my diet is correct, unless oxalyis plant (looks like clover with little yellow leaves) has oxalic acid - she loves it
I am glad she dislikes beet greens after reading his menu
mostly have to figure out the humidity which is up, but so is ground moisture, and see what is "a chameleon drip"

 

[Madkins007]

Drips are what they sound like- a hanging jug or something with a small hole in the side so it slowly drips. For chameleons, they are usually set to drip on a plant for drinking water. For tortoises, they can be set to drip on a warmed surface, or into a plant, or into a spongy material that is warm enough to evaporate it back into the air.

You can buy dripping jars, or make it yourself with a container that has a screw-on lid. Drill a small hole near the bottom, fill the jar, put the lid on tight. It should not drip since no air is getting back in to replace the lost water. Slowly loosen the lid and the drip should start up. Adjust the lid to control the drip flow. You can get fancier by adding tubing, valves, etc. but this is the basics.

 

[llamas55]

perfect Madkins007 I get it, and will make one with a canning jar. It beats a really soggy substrate, guaranteed to rot poor Tommi Tortoise's shell

 

[Madkins007]

A glass canning jar might be hard to drill a SMALL hole into, but a lot of plastic jars, water bottles, milk jugs, etc. work nicely. With a lot of them, you can even make the hole with just a strong pin.

 

[llamas55]

Hey Madkins I just found this calorie count, it looks like I am way underfeeding, as she the 1.5#er is fairly active. how much squash then, I've done maybe half a thimble full (I was scared over-feeding was the reason she was pyramiding, I now think low humidity and who knows what else). Do people think aloe vera is non poisonous? I see 4 free ones on freecycle.org and want to start humidifying with plants.
so 40 calories a day for a 1.5 growing girl? ok then, I'll try and figure it out. still a few dandelions out there if I look hard, Nov. in MN and all

As far as the amount of food- it is best to keep Red-foots a little hungry, but a 1.5lb Red-foot needs about 20 calories a day if it is just sitting there, about 40 if it is active and growing.

I don't figure out the calories in each meal I serve, but every so often I do just to make sure I am not too far high or low.

For the foods you listed, the calories are:
- Dandelions- 23 calories in about 1 cup of chopped leaves
- Squash- 19 calories in about 1 medium squash
- strawberry- 4 calories in a medium berry
- fig- 37 calories in a medium fig

I'm guessing your meal there was about 20ish calories or less as a sheer guess. You can throw some greens in there and be fine, as well as keeping him busy for longer.

(Calorie calculator, per Dr. Mader, "Reptile Surgery and Medicine" and others: weight in kilograms to the -0.75th power (yes, a negative power) times 32 (or, (weight/kg.^-0.75) x 32) gives you the resting calorie needs. You increase this 50 to 100% for active, growing, breeding, laying, etc. tortoises. Food values from www.elook.org)