Cgeyer
New Member
Tom:
The literature is there. You fail to realize it.
Carl
The literature is there. You fail to realize it.
Carl
Failure to Thrive
- Thread starter Cgeyer
- Start date
Carl: because you're new here you don't know what we've done to further our knowledge.
Tom used to raise and breed sulcatas and because of this he had many, many babies to experiment with. He performed side-by-side studies with his test subjects, showing the results here on the Forum as he went along. I saw with my own eyes, much better, far as I'm concerned, than reading about it in a dry old journal.
I appreciate that you took the time to start this thread. My mind is open, but so far, you haven't convinced me.
Tom used to raise and breed sulcatas and because of this he had many, many babies to experiment with. He performed side-by-side studies with his test subjects, showing the results here on the Forum as he went along. I saw with my own eyes, much better, far as I'm concerned, than reading about it in a dry old journal.
I appreciate that you took the time to start this thread. My mind is open, but so far, you haven't convinced me.
Cgeyer
New Member
I am not starting this thread to convince you
Did you start it for any reason other than trying to start something, like arguing? You have showed nothing of any proof of anything, not even that you have a clue about tortoises or own any.
Being a physician proves nothing!
Cgeyer
New Member
I think you have answered your own question.
Well if you already have such literature, why are you asking us to provide it? Please share what you have found. We are here to learn.
He has nothing Tom. He's bored and just wanted to start crap.
I suppose that is possible, but I am not so sure. Many before before him have asked for citations of scientific literature in the face of all this conflicting internet info, and most of them are incredulous when you tell them that there is no such info. No scientific "entity" has done any studies of different ways to raise baby tortoises and what the results are. I can recall the 2003 study that inadvertently, but clearly, showed that pyramiding is not related to protein intake, and clearly is related to humidity, but many people simply dismissed that study as "flawed" for a variety of reasons that they created in their own minds.
I've tried to thoughtfully explain the situation. I hope Carl will consider what has been said, and what we have all seen and experienced over the last decade. If he will do the experiments himself, he will see for himself first hand.
But he has nothing. Nothing to back up what he says and nothing relating it too tortoises. If he did, he'd show it. I think he's just one of the trolls that likes to start crap and then move on to the next forum. He's only a physician not a scientist and if his profile age is correct, he's likely retired and bored.
You can keep trying of course, but don't count on getting much from him.
etreal
Member
I am not a scientist or a breeder or an expert. I am just a pet owner that can share his experience.
Last year I got a male leopard tortoise to mate with my 22 years old female.
4 eggs hatched between January and February, including a pair of twins. I followed the recommendations on this forum, and the 5 of them are thriving (even the twins that were born weighting 14 grams!!!).
22 years ago I bought 6 hatchlings, and only the last one survived (Jacinta, my female).
I think there is a huge difference between both cases, that rules of nature cannot explain.
And for many of us, pet owners, what matters is to be able to enjoy a wonderful pet.
Thank you Tom, Yvonne, Wellington, Zeropilot, and all the others that help us on a daily basis in this forum!!!
Here is a Pick of the twins. Aren’t they nice?
Best regards to all of you!!!
Last year I got a male leopard tortoise to mate with my 22 years old female.
4 eggs hatched between January and February, including a pair of twins. I followed the recommendations on this forum, and the 5 of them are thriving (even the twins that were born weighting 14 grams!!!).
22 years ago I bought 6 hatchlings, and only the last one survived (Jacinta, my female).
I think there is a huge difference between both cases, that rules of nature cannot explain.
And for many of us, pet owners, what matters is to be able to enjoy a wonderful pet.
Thank you Tom, Yvonne, Wellington, Zeropilot, and all the others that help us on a daily basis in this forum!!!
Here is a Pick of the twins. Aren’t they nice?
Best regards to all of you!!!
Attachments
Cgeyer
New Member
Failure to Thrive
Failure to thrive means that a child is not growing as he or she should. Psychological, social, or economic problems within the family almost always play a role in this condition.
Failure to thrive: when to suspect inborn errors of metabolism - PubMed
Failure to thrive (FTT) is a common symptom, not a diagnosis, of a wide range of childhood diseases. Although FTT is usually caused by inadequate energy intake in diet or constitutional small size, organic pathology should be considered in some cases of FTT. This article is intended to guide...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
I've patiently explained twice why human medicine and even domesticated animals have little relevance in this discussion. We are talking about tortoises, not people. I did not fail to realize there is literature on human babies regarding this subject. I'm well aware of it as my own daughter was right on the verge of FTT for here first year or so, hovering in the 1-4% range. I kept asking the doctors to look at her two 100 pound 5 foot tall grandmothers and great grandmother, and her 4 foot 11 inch tall 115 pound grand father. We did not expect her to be in the top 90% of infant growth rates at any time.Failure to Thrive
Failure to thrive means that a child is not growing as he or she should. Psychological, social, or economic problems within the family almost always play a role in this condition.www.hopkinsmedicine.org
I have many more, but quid pro quoFailure to thrive: when to suspect inborn errors of metabolism - PubMed
Failure to thrive (FTT) is a common symptom, not a diagnosis, of a wide range of childhood diseases. Although FTT is usually caused by inadequate energy intake in diet or constitutional small size, organic pathology should be considered in some cases of FTT. This article is intended to guide...
Do you have peer reviewed articles on the results of different strategies of raising hatchling tortoises? I do not, but I'd love to see them if they exist. What I do have is thousands of first hand case studies that have passed through my own hands over more than 3 decades.
Cgeyer
New Member
Signing off for several days.
Cgeyer
New Member
Nature is the genetics. Nurture is the environment
Hello Carl: One problem with studying "failure to thrive" in the human baby is that human babies are injected on day one of life with a Hepatitis B vaccine, which by the way is totally ridiculous, because Hep B is spread through blood (IV drug users) and sexual contact. By the way, the two Hepatitis B vaccine studies that were done, followed the 170 babies tested for only 4 and 5 days respectively. Mothers are all tested for Hep B during pregnancy. More and more evidence is being exposed that the whole vaccine industry may be causing more problems than it prevents. It is very hard to be open minded when we have been completely brain washed through medical school that vaccines are all "safe and effective". There is not a vaccine on the childhood schedule that has been tested against a true placebo, most are tested against another vaccine that has never been tested against a true placebo (Turtles all the way down).
I have been raising Leopard Tortoises (SPb/SPp Mixes) for only about 5 years, averaging about 140 babies each year. I do it all exactly like @Tom and @Markw84 recommend. I get nearly 100% hatch rate and one of my mama's consistently has at least one set of twins each year. Usually only one twin is viable at hatching, but I have raised two sets that both survived. I sell my babies at 8-12 weeks old and they are amazing big active babies. I have however, had two babies over these 5 years, which I named Tiny Tim and Tiny Tim 2, which were, what I would describe, as failure to thrive. These babies appeared perfect when they hatched and were both hatched on appropriate days of incubation, and neither were twins. I closely observed these babies noting that the defining difference with these babies was that neither baby ever ate anything and I provided all types of greens. I soaked the babies in "baby carrot food" baths hoping to stimulate their appetites. I separated the babies from their clutch mates seeing no improvement. I put them back with clutch mates hoping to stimulate eating. Their environments were always perfect, but neither one ever ate. They obviously never gained weight and both died about 2 1/2 months of age. Another observation I made with these two babies was that when I would soak them, they both would want to submerge their heads for just too long. It was as if they thought they were "turtles". I had to be very careful while giving them their daily soaks because of this. It was heartbreaking for me to watch them slowly die, no matter what I did. These 2 "failure to thrive hatchlings" were obvious even before they left the brooder box, because they never nibbled on anything. The "failure to thrive" hatchlings are very obvious very early on and it is hard to imagine anyone selling one to a customer. I believe there is some form of genetic defect involving an "inborn error of metabolism" in the true FTT. On a side note, last year I had an amazing baby that I believe was truly a "dwarf". This baby ate wonderfully, ended up a little smaller than its clutch mates, but had a strange shape to the shell. It was in a "bell" shape, so naturally her name was Bell. I ended up giving this baby to a couple who were both Vet techs, who wanted to purchase three babies. All the updates they send me show she is thriving and doing well. She was actually very cute. I do believe however, that the majority of hatchling deaths are the result of poor husbandry.
I understand this concept. My point to you is that the genes of these non-domesticated animals are fine, with the exceedingly rare exceptions that have been mentioned here on this thread. The problem is the nurture, or lack thereof. We here on TFO are trying to correct this sad situation, now that we have a better understanding of what was wrong previously, and what works best now.
jeff kushner
Well-Known Member
Interesting discussion.
I figure it's never a bad idea to exchange information, just be polite in receiving it, like a gift...even if you plan of tossing it in the trash once you're out of sight(come on, I'm not the only one here with a cheap aunt)
Far too often, I've read "studies" that failed simple scientific method than you can shake 3 sticks at but I'm still open to their ideas........but for my new friend, you will not find a more talented group when it comes to all types of turtles, regardless of higher education, period. There are guys here working with Uni's to breed critically endangered species....that role is simply not given to plebes. You find hatch rates exceeding most Zoo's anywhere else, that ain't by accident.
I read a real interesting article on the effects of screen time and young children.....wonder if in a few more months we'll see a correlation between moms screen time and some "defect" in her baby?
Finding ones humility can ingratiate you into a group....you know that.....
jeff
I figure it's never a bad idea to exchange information, just be polite in receiving it, like a gift...even if you plan of tossing it in the trash once you're out of sight(come on, I'm not the only one here with a cheap aunt)
Far too often, I've read "studies" that failed simple scientific method than you can shake 3 sticks at but I'm still open to their ideas........but for my new friend, you will not find a more talented group when it comes to all types of turtles, regardless of higher education, period. There are guys here working with Uni's to breed critically endangered species....that role is simply not given to plebes. You find hatch rates exceeding most Zoo's anywhere else, that ain't by accident.
I read a real interesting article on the effects of screen time and young children.....wonder if in a few more months we'll see a correlation between moms screen time and some "defect" in her baby?
Finding ones humility can ingratiate you into a group....you know that.....
jeff
It's great to have Jeff's input on this thread. When Carl returns, (and I hope you will, Carl,)I think he will be pleased to discover that not only has his thread Thrived exponentially, but it has adapted, evolved and is now beginning to mutate!
Tammy, why don't you take your cup of tea and go sit on your porch?!
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2012
- Messages
- 716
Might as well wade into an argument, lol. Every tortoise baby (less than a year old) I have sent for necropsy - a total of 3 so far - has died of a disease or infection. And in each case, it was a different pathogen. I regret not sending others, because I don’t know why those particular hatchings died. I have observed “failure to thrive” cases in both tortoises I’ve bought and ones I have hatched. The ones I hatched were set up from birth using methods similar to what Tom recommends.
I strongly suspect that the rate of infections or diseases in such cases is being grossly underestimated. Most people don’t send them for necropsy to find out. Overall “hatchling failure” might be a catch-all for a variety of causes of death (husbandry or disease). Congenital issues are likely a minority of cases. In cases where congenital issues are common or a large number of hatchlings are just “weak”, I would consider a problem with the mother (e.g. disease or poor nutrition) or perhaps an egg incubation problem (e.g. too hot, or lacking temp fluctuation, etc).
I have also heard the argument that “only the strongest hatchlings are meant to live” phrased in multiple ways by different people, even from well-regarded organizations. I find it often is a rather insidious excuse used to justify a hands off approach - wherein some percentage of hatchlings are sacrificed to die off “naturally” in exchange for less husbandry effort being expended by the keeper.
At the end of the day, even breeders putting in tons of effort and using the “best” methods still lose hatchlings sometimes, especially with delicate species. I think most of these deaths will prove to be preventable, if the causes can be sufficiently understood.
Steve
I strongly suspect that the rate of infections or diseases in such cases is being grossly underestimated. Most people don’t send them for necropsy to find out. Overall “hatchling failure” might be a catch-all for a variety of causes of death (husbandry or disease). Congenital issues are likely a minority of cases. In cases where congenital issues are common or a large number of hatchlings are just “weak”, I would consider a problem with the mother (e.g. disease or poor nutrition) or perhaps an egg incubation problem (e.g. too hot, or lacking temp fluctuation, etc).
I have also heard the argument that “only the strongest hatchlings are meant to live” phrased in multiple ways by different people, even from well-regarded organizations. I find it often is a rather insidious excuse used to justify a hands off approach - wherein some percentage of hatchlings are sacrificed to die off “naturally” in exchange for less husbandry effort being expended by the keeper.
At the end of the day, even breeders putting in tons of effort and using the “best” methods still lose hatchlings sometimes, especially with delicate species. I think most of these deaths will prove to be preventable, if the causes can be sufficiently understood.
Steve
