Evening temperature

[Zaffy]

I inherited an elderly tortoise called Boris.
I look after Boris in mostly the same way his owner did.
Boris hibernates when he is ready and wakes up when he is ready, and in the latter case far too early for me, about January time. He then roams around the house doing his own thing waiting for spring. I pop him into the garden whenever the sun throws a bit of warmth.
I am not an expert, but I have an observation I would like to share. At night, even if Boris has chosen to roast himself by the wood burning stove, he will, when ready for bedtime, stomp off to the coolest part of the room, or house if a door is open, to sleep through the night and I wonder when tortoises are kept in contained areas, with sleep lamps etc., that these tortoises have that same opportunity to find a cool space.
In the wild, even in the hottest countries, night temperatures drop, so to me Boris' night sleeping arrangements makes sense.
Anyhow just a thought.

 

[Thomas tortoise]

You let him wonder the house???? There are many reasons not to let your tortoise do that but I forget the reasons I'm sure @Tom would gladly remind me about the reasons and tell you them.

 

[Tom]

I inherited an elderly tortoise called Boris.
I look after Boris in mostly the same way his owner did.
Boris hibernates when he is ready and wakes up when he is ready, and in the latter case far too early for me, about January time. He then roams around the house doing his own thing waiting for spring. I pop him into the garden whenever the sun throws a bit of warmth.
I am not an expert, but I have an observation I would like to share. At night, even if Boris has chosen to roast himself by the wood burning stove, he will, when ready for bedtime, stomp off to the coolest part of the room, or house if a door is open, to sleep through the night and I wonder when tortoises are kept in contained areas, with sleep lamps etc., that these tortoises have that same opportunity to find a cool space.
In the wild, even in the hottest countries, night temperatures drop, so to me Boris' night sleeping arrangements makes sense.
Anyhow just a thought.

What you explain above sounds reasonable, and it can work for a tortoise in the wild in its native environment, but in practice, your flawed logic leads to tortoise deaths. I'll explain...

When a tortoise is in a captive environment, even in their native environments in their country of origin, tortoises can't do what they need to do as far as moving around to differing types of cover and concealment. We see this in Southern California backyards with California desert tortoises. My friend saw it in Senegal Africa with his sulcata breeding and reintroduction program. They saw this in the Galapagos islands when they started captive breeding.

Here is a fine example: I live in a warm sunny climate and I raise sulcatas, among many other species. We get cold nights, even in summer. When I move them outside full time at around 10 inches in length, with a heated night box, it can takes weeks, and sometimes months, to get them to learn to go into their heated shelters at night. There are many times in fall or spring when we will have a warm sunny day in the 70s (22-25C) and the night time low temp will be dropping to near freezing. Sulcatas come from the tropics. They live underground most of their lives, avoiding the extreme temperatures at the surface. Ground temps in sulcata land fluctuate between 80 and 85 (27-29C) all year long, so this is the temperature their night boxes need to be set at. They can warm up to that temp in the sun on cooler days, or stay in the warm box if they want. Every night I go around and open every night box and do a head count to make sure everyone is in, and then I shut the door and latch it shut to keep them in over night. Then the boxes will be opened every morning. There are many times when these tropical tortoises will simply choose to go park in a corner or under a bush, instead of sensibly retiring to their warm quarters. If I let them make this choice, and didn't put them in their boxes, they would likely be dead by morning. Two or three nights of this would surely lead to sickness and eventual death, if it didn't get cold enough to kill them outright.

The point is: Your tortoise chooses where to sleep based more on factors of comfort and security, not temperature. These are wild animals, and their instincts tell them to park somewhere safe for the night because where they have evolved to live for millions of years, it is always warm enough, or they know where to go, and have the freedom to go there, in inclement weather. They don't have the powers of reason to figure out where the optimal temperatures are on the floor of a room in winter.

Your species is more cold tolerant than some other species from other parts of the world, so they can endure colder temps for longer periods of time. This is merely survival. Because the tortoise is still alive, does not mean this routine is "good" for it. Look at what fragile humans can sometimes survive. There is a difference between surviving less than optimal conditions and thriving in optimal conditions.

Loose on the floor is a recipe for disaster. Tortoises die in uncountable ways from this practice. Again. because your tortoise has survived to this point does not justify incorrect, dangerous, inappropriate housing for him.

Lastly, if the tortoise is loose on the floor and parked in a corner, coming and going as he pleases, that is not hibernation. Nor is it brumation. It is simply a tortoise surviving in cold conditions waiting for warmer temperature to return. You need the proper temperatures and a safe secure hibernacula to safely brumate your tortoise through winter. Leaving them to their own devices usually results in an untimely death, and we don't want that to happen to Boris. He needs an enclosure that is safe and kept at the correct temperatures for his species.

 

[Zaffy]

You let him wonder the house???? There are many reasons not to let your tortoise do that but I forget the reasons I'm sure @Tom would gladly remind me about the reasons and tell you them.

Yep. Boris is nearly 70 years old and he is outside

What you explain above sounds reasonable, and it can work for a tortoise in the wild in its native environment, but in practice, your flawed logic leads to tortoise deaths. I'll explain...

When a tortoise is in a captive environment, even in their native environments in their country of origin, tortoises can't do what they need to do as far as moving around to differing types of cover and concealment. We see this in Southern California backyards with California desert tortoises. My friend saw it in Senegal Africa with his sulcata breeding and reintroduction program. They saw this in the Galapagos islands when they started captive breeding.

Here is a fine example: I live in a warm sunny climate and I raise sulcatas, among many other species. We get cold nights, even in summer. When I move them outside full time at around 10 inches in length, with a heated night box, it can takes weeks, and sometimes months, to get them to learn to go into their heated shelters at night. There are many times in fall or spring when we will have a warm sunny day in the 70s (22-25C) and the night time low temp will be dropping to near freezing. Sulcatas come from the tropics. They live underground most of their lives, avoiding the extreme temperatures at the surface. Ground temps in sulcata land fluctuate between 80 and 85 (27-29C) all year long, so this is the temperature their night boxes need to be set at. They can warm up to that temp in the sun on cooler days, or stay in the warm box if they want. Every night I go around and open every night box and do a head count to make sure everyone is in, and then I shut the door and latch it shut to keep them in over night. Then the boxes will be opened every morning. There are many times when these tropical tortoises will simply choose to go park in a corner or under a bush, instead of sensibly retiring to their warm quarters. If I let them make this choice, and didn't put them in their boxes, they would likely be dead by morning. Two or three nights of this would surely lead to sickness and eventual death, if it didn't get cold enough to kill them outright.

The point is: Your tortoise chooses where to sleep based more on factors of comfort and security, not temperature. These are wild animals, and their instincts tell them to park somewhere safe for the night because where they have evolved to live for millions of years, it is always warm enough, or they know where to go, and have the freedom to go there, in inclement weather. They don't have the powers of reason to figure out where the optimal temperatures are on the floor of a room in winter.

Your species is more cold tolerant than some other species from other parts of the world, so they can endure colder temps for longer periods of time. This is merely survival. Because the tortoise is still alive, does not mean this routine is "good" for it. Look at what fragile humans can sometimes survive. There is a difference between surviving less than optimal conditions and thriving in optimal conditions.

Loose on the floor is a recipe for disaster. Tortoises die in uncountable ways from this practice. Again. because your tortoise has survived to this point does not justify incorrect, dangerous, inappropriate housing for him.

Lastly, if the tortoise is loose on the floor and parked in a corner, coming and going as he pleases, that is not hibernation. Nor is it brumation. It is simply a tortoise surviving in cold conditions waiting for warmer temperature to return. You need the proper temperatures and a safe secure hibernacula to safely brumate your tortoise through winter. Leaving them to their own devices usually results in an untiamely death, and we don't want that to happen to Boris. He needs an enclosure that is safe and kept at the correct temperatures for his species.

Tom, thank you for your interest.
I think you might like to re-read my post. Boris hibernates but always wakes up before spring has really got going.
Once a Boris wakes after hibernation, he cannot be ignored, his year has started, so he stays inside until the warmer weather, or the occasional bright day.
The point of my post was, that when I light the fire, Boris gravitates towards it, then wanders off to a cooler place at night, not a freezing place. This is his choice.
That's about it really. And I wonder if artificial conditions allow for cooler temps as happens naturally at night.
When I first took over Boris' care, I did try to contain him, and I bought a heat lamp but he never went under it and his distress was such, that he would turn himself upside down trying to get out. So I went back to looking after him like brother used to. Freedom is Boris' way of life.
Boris understands temperature, as do all animals. He will sunbathe on the lawn and when he gets too hot, he moves to the shade. Horses, cats, tortoises, snakes and every animal between will naturally do this.
In mild weather, when Boris is outside all day, he always comes in the house at night. When the sun goes down, he digs an indentation or wedges himself under a hedge. I leave him to do this because that's what tortoises naturally do. When he is fast asleep, I take him inside. I put him in a cardboard box which is on its side, so when he wakes up he can crawl out in his own time. His day has begun and I put him outside again, but not when the weather is cold. I would like to highlight that Boris is never left out in the freezing air. But a tortoise, like all animals should taste the outside. How I see it is, an animal that has never felt the sun on its back or breathed fresh air surely is missing out.
You say to me "Your tortoise chooses where to sleep based more on factors of comfort and security, not temperature." But surely, temperature is part of comfort.
Vet was pleased with his condition when I took him for a check up and he also liked his temperament. Said most tortoises that he sees tend to be aggressive.
I reckon Boris will outlive me and I hope my reply leaves you not quite so concerned about him.

 

[Zaffy]

PS My one line comment which says (Yep, Boris is nearly 70 years old and he is outside) was sent by mistake, I was trying to edit it and was deleting part of it and I must have pressed a wrong key and it got sent. It should have read (Yep, Boris is nearly 70 years old and he is indoors waiting for the warmer weather when he can go outside)

 

[Tom]

Yep. Boris is nearly 70 years old and he is outside

Once a Boris wakes after hibernation, he cannot be ignored, his year has started, so he stays inside until the warmer weather, or the occasional bright day.

Where are you and what species is Boris?

A properly brumated tortoise is safely contained and at the correct temperature. They don't wake until we wake them. They don't choose when to wake up. Your tortoise loose on the floor of the house is not hibernating.

The point of my post was, that when I light the fire, Boris gravitates towards it, then wanders off to a cooler place at night, not a freezing place. This is his choice.

Right. His choice. And I'm trying to tell you that tortoises do not choose wisely. Yes, they understand basking in the sun, and moving out of the sun into the shade when they get too hot, but they do not understand moving to a warmer area when they feel too cold.

And I wonder if artificial conditions allow for cooler temps as happens naturally at night.

Yes, if you are keeping them correctly, temperate species should be having a night drop every night. All of mine do.

When I first took over Boris' care, I did try to contain him, and I bought a heat lamp but he never went under it and his distress was such, that he would turn himself upside down trying to get out. So I went back to looking after him like brother used to. Freedom is Boris' way of life.

All tortoises do this when moved to a new area. In time they settle in. Most people don't use an appropriately sized enclosure, don't furnish it correctly, and this is part of the problem. Was your enclosure at least 4x8 feet? If it was that size or larger, Boris would have settled down and gotten used to it, given the chance.

Boris is not "free". He's contained on the floor in your house by your walls. It is too cold, too barren, and there are more than a dozen ways that this is likely to kill him. We see it here all the time, and I see it with my vet friends too. They tell me all about their cases of free-roaming tortoises getting sick, injured, or killed in all sorts of ways.

Boris understands temperature, as do all animals. He will sunbathe on the lawn and when he gets too hot, he moves to the shade. Horses, cats, tortoises, snakes and every animal between will naturally do this.

Wrong. Boris understands overheating in the sun. He does not understand that its too cold on the floor over in the corner when its dark. No tortoise does. None of my tortoise sit in the sun and bake their brains, but all of them will choose to sleep outside on a night that will be too cold when I first move them outside. Most of them enjoy the shelter and safety of their night boxes, and train themselves to go in at night on their own, but not because they understand that it will be too cold outside at night. Tortoises all understand how to move to the shade when they over heat, but they don't understand cold. Further, many tortoises will sit there and cook when people use heat mats under them in indoor enclosures. If all animals understand these concepts, why do they do that? Tortoises operate largely on instinct. Its up to use to help them and ensure they have the correct temperatures and conditions for their species in our captive environments in foreign countries. Loose on the floor is not the correct temperatures or conditions for any tortoise.

In mild weather, when Boris is outside all day, he always comes in the house at night. When the sun goes down, he digs an indentation or wedges himself under a hedge. I leave him to do this because that's what tortoises naturally do. When he is fast asleep, I take him inside. I put him in a cardboard box which is on its side, so when he wakes up he can crawl out in his own time. His day has begun and I put him outside again, but not when the weather is cold.

He would be much better off if you built him an insulated, temperature controlled box that he could use on cold days and nights. Again, loose on the floor is dangerous. Its a recipe for disaster. He should be safely contained in his own enclosure either outdoors or in.

I would like to highlight that Boris is never left out in the freezing air.

This did not need to be said. If you left him outside when it was freezing, he'd be dead. I never thought you did that.

But a tortoise, like all animals should taste the outside. How I see it is, an animal that has never felt the sun on its back or breathed fresh air surely is missing out.

I keep a lot of different types of animals. I understand what you are saying about animals enjoying the great outdoors, but no, not all of them need this or benefit from it. I agree that when possible most tortoise species should be outside as much as possible as adults, weather and climate permitting. Not true of "all animals", and also not true of all tortoise species. Kinixys, for example, often die when housed outside, regardless of climate and weather. Yet they thrive and breed when kept correctly in large indoor enclosures. I don't know why this is the case, but I know it is the case.

You say to me "Your tortoise chooses where to sleep based more on factors of comfort and security, not temperature." But surely, temperature is part of comfort.

Not for ectothermic reptiles. As explained previously. Temperature is part of comfort for birds and mammals. Even primates like us. Heck, especially for primates like us. Getting hot in the sun might make a tortoise feel "uncomfortable", but getting too cold at night in the dark is not a concept they grasp.

Vet was pleased with his condition when I took him for a check up and he also liked his temperament. Said most tortoises that he sees tend to be aggressive.

Vets know little about tortoises and tortoise care. There is no semester on tortoise care in vet school. Looking at the outside of a tortoise does not tell anyone if the tortoise is being house and cared for correctly. Most tortoises are aggressive? That's preposterous. Its very rare to see a tortoise that is aggressive toward people, especially when removed from its territory and taken to a vet's office. Turtles on the other hand will often try to turn around and bite, depending on the species, of course.

I reckon Boris will outlive me and I hope my reply leaves you not quite so concerned about him.

Sadly, no. Much of what you are doing is likely to kill him in one of many ways. The fact that my words are falling on deaf ears makes me more concerned, not less. I do not think Boris will outlive you if you don't make some changes. I'm not here to argue and upset you. I'm here to help tortoises. I've spent the time replying to your post because your tortoise needs help.

Here is the correct care for temperate species. I hope you'll give it a read and reconsider some of your practices:

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[Zaffy]

Boris is a Testudo Graeca Graeca. County of Buckinghamshire UK.

Boris does not hibernate loose on the floor. He hibernates in a cardboard box with newspaper in the cold attic room and is checked almost daily, until he wakes up.

So you agree with me and my main point of the post, which was when tortoises are kept in enclosed spaces with heaters and lights are they able to get away from those heaters and lights at night, because I notice that Boris seeks out a cooler place to sleep at night.

Contained areas. All tortoises do this when moved to a new area and then settle down. Or do they just give up?

Was the enclosure more than 4 feet x 8 feet? But of course. No way would I contain him in something so small other than when he is fast asleep hibernating. And outside in the first summer after brother's death, I wire fenced off a large area of the lawn and Boris just paced around the edge endlessly trying to escape. I can't stand to see caged animals pacing up and down, so the wire fencing went.

Why do you say my house is too cold? I live in a warm house.

You question why I mentioned that I did not leave Boris out in the freezing cold. I only mentioned it because you wrote about leaving tortoises out in the freezing cold. If I don't and you don't, then we agree on that.

I'll let my vet know your thoughts on his professionalism. Your vet friends sound excellent. If they live anywhere near Buckinghamshire, I would appreciate their address.

Boris won't outlive me? Well I am seventy and Boris is seventy. I'll take a bet if you like.

Now that I have answered your questions, can you please answer one question for me?
Boris has been in our family for seventy years. Please can you tell me how long you have owned your oldest tortoise?

You say free roaming tortoises get sick, injured, or killed in all sorts of ways. Please let me know these ways so that I am aware of how to avoid them because maybe for seventy years we have just been lucky. Although, I agree that there is risk in any sort of freedom. Like worrying when letting your dog off for a good run in the countryside, but a dog must run. Or like bringing up a child and wanting to keep them safe but caging them would never do so we set them free and hope.

Thanks for your feedback.

 

[Tom]

Boris is a Testudo Graeca Graeca. County of Buckinghamshire UK.

Boris does not hibernate loose on the floor. He hibernates in a cardboard box with newspaper in the cold attic room and is checked almost daily, until he wakes up.

Thank you for the info. Much easier to have a discussion when I know what species we are referring to.

What is the temperature in the attic? If it is staying consistently cold, he should not be "waking up" early.

So you agree with me and my main point of the post, which was when tortoises are kept in enclosed spaces with heaters and lights are they able to get away from those heaters and lights at night, because I notice that Boris seeks out a cooler place to sleep at night.

In most cases heat is not necessary at night in an enclosure for an adult greek tortoise. No one is telling you to keep the tortoise hot and under heat all the time. I've been recommending you keep the tortoise at the correct optimal temperatures day and not instead of leaving him to roam the cold and dangerous floor. The lights should be off at night, and heat, only if needed due to extreme cold indoors, should be controlled by a thermostat. There is no need to "get away from it" because it is the correct amount of heat, or no heat at all if the temperature is already correct for the species.

Contained areas. All tortoises do this when moved to a new area and then settle down. Or do they just give up?

Yes, of course they give up. They give up their futile attempts to get "home" to their old territory and they settle in to their new and hopefully pleasant enclosures. That is the point. Any time your remove a tortoise from where it has previously settled in, it will be antsy for a good week or two, and some give up and just hide. The older they are and the longer they've been in the same place, the longer the adjustment period is. AN adult like Boris could take more than a month to settle in and realize the new abode is now "home", but the solution to the distress about being transplanted is not to turn him loose on the floor of the house.

Was the enclosure more than 4 feet x 8 feet? But of course. No way would I contain him in something so small other than when he is fast asleep hibernating. And outside in the first summer after brother's death, I wire fenced off a large area of the lawn and Boris just paced around the edge endlessly trying to escape. I can't stand to see caged animals pacing up and down, so the wire fencing went.

Tortoises need a visual barrier. Wire fencing doesn't work unless you line it with something solid and opaque like plywood. If you had built an enclosure with proper materials, he would have paced up and down the same way that he does, or doesn't, pace up and down your current garden walls. If your garden does't have other pets and is dedicated to the tortoise, then the whole thing can be and often should be one big tortoise enclosure. 4x8 feet is the minimum indoor enclosure size, for winter and inclement weather. Outside housing is much better for an adult when weather permits, but the enclosure should be very large, and include a proper heated shelter. If you read the linked care sheet, you will see that the heated shelter is not kept "hot" for a temperate species like Boris, it just keeps the cold from getting too cold, and also provides them with some day time heat in the event of a cold cloudy day that occurs outside of brumation time.

You can't stand to see caged animals? You prefer to see them hit by cars, poisoned, mauled by dogs, escaped and lost, etc.. Animals are "caged" for their own safety and well being. Their cages should be large enough, interesting enough and properly designed to meet all their needs. Boris is still caged. His cage just has different walls than some other cages.

Why do you say my house is too cold? I live in a warm house.

Most people in the UK let their houses stay much colder than most people here in the US. Most people here in the US keep their houses around 18-21C in winter. Even when the house thermostat is set to these temps at eye level, it is usually 10-15degree colder down on the floor. The usual temp I've seen for UK homes in winter is around 10-12C. That is too cold for a tortoise, especially living on the floor with no way to warm up during the day, yet not quite cold enough to brumate safely. And a wood burning stove in an otherwise cold room is not a safe or effective way to heat a tortoise. What temperature do you keep your house at in winter? Have you checked the temperature on the floor?

I'll let my vet know your thoughts on his professionalism. Your vet friends sound excellent. If they live anywhere near Buckinghamshire, I would appreciate their address.

Please feel free to share all of this with your vet. I'll be happy to share what I've seen and what I've learned from all the vet mishaps, misdiagnosis, and accidental deaths due to ignorance of tortoises and their care requirements. This ignorance is rampant and worldwide, and lots of tortoises die annually because of it. I regularly consult my local vets on tortoise care and questions, and I'd be happy to do the same with yours.

My vet friends are here in the states. Animals have been my hobby and passion since I was a toddler, and my career since 1986. I have worked with a lot of vets over a lot of years. I've seen a lot of good and a lot of bad. Regarding tortoises, most of it has been bad. You can read all about it right here on the forum, if you would like to.

Boris won't outlive me? Well I am seventy and Boris is seventy. I'll take a bet if you like.

You say free roaming tortoises get sick, injured, or killed in all sorts of ways. Please let me know these ways so that I am aware of how to avoid them because maybe for seventy years we have just been lucky. Although, I agree that there is risk in any sort of freedom. Like worrying when letting your dog off for a good run in the countryside, but a dog must run. Or like bringing up a child and wanting to keep them safe but caging them would never do so we set them free and hope.

Boris is not likely to outlive you because of how you are housing and caring for him. I've seen countless examples in person of ways that free roaming tortoises have died, been injured, or gotten sick, and countless more right here on the forum. One swallowed a 2 inch sewing pin, but the owner doesn't sew or have any idea where it came from. There are X-rays showing all manner of ingested foreign bodies. One lady's tortoise stuck its head in the door crease and she smashed its head. One owner's tortoise walked out the front door that someone left open momentarily and they ran over their own tortoise. I've seen broken leg tortoise X-rays both from being accidentally kicked and stepped on. Ingestion of various poisons, cleaning product fumes, other pets and/or visiting pets maul them, cold temps bring on respiratory infections... the list is endless.

How to avoid all of these? Put your tortoise in a large, safe enclosure when indoors and heat and light it correctly. Very simple and very sensible. Yes, you have been very lucky to have gotten away with this for 70 years. Most people don't. This doesn't justify poor care. Lots of people do dangerous things and live to tell about it. Their miraculous survival doesn't mean that what they did, or are doing, is okay and a good way to go. How about cigarette smoking. My grandfather lived to be 82 years old and smoked most of his life. Does this mean smoking was not bad for him, and that its totally fine for other people to keep inhaling cigarette smoke daily? This isn't a case of letting your dog run in the countryside. I do that daily with my trained dogs. Containing a tortoise for its own safety and well being has nothing to do with raising a child in a cage. Even young humans have powers of reasoning and understanding that reptiles do not. Your tortoise can be perfectly content to live in an enclosure. How do I know this? Because all of mine do. I've breed over a thousand of them over the years and every single one of them have been safely confined.

Now that I have answered your questions, can you please answer one question for me?
Boris has been in our family for seventy years. Please can you tell me how long you have owned your oldest tortoise?

Yes I will. Happily. I've been keeping various chelonians since 1979 when I first begged my mother to get me a box turtle and she finally capitulated. In the mid 80s I went to work in a local pet store where I cared for several tortoise species, as well as all other normal pet store animals to include a host of reptiles, fish, birds, dogs, cats, and a wide variety of small mammals, and also brought many of these home to be my personal pets, including tortoises. My poor mother endured more aquariums and reptile cages in my teen years, than most people will see in a lifetime. It only got worse when I went off to college and had my own place. The current oldest tortoises in my collection would be my radiata girls at around 14 years old now. My South African leopards were picked up directly from the breeder right after they hatched in 2010. Those three females and two males provide me with around 200 eggs per year. My Sudan Sulcatas were acquired in 2012, and the female just deposited 23 eggs for me a few days ago. My Burmese stars are my youngest adults at 9 years old later this year, and I hatched 84 of their babies last year. This last one is very satisfying for me since they are functionally extinct and do not exist in the wild anymore. My babies have been dispersed to other breeders all over the country and this species will live on for many generations to come in private hands.

I realize this is much more info than what you asked for, but my point is to hopefully demonstrate to you that I have some credibility when I make the assertions I make. I followed all the typical wrong tortoise care advice for nearly 20 years before embarking on a journey of experimentation over 10 years ago that still endures to this day, to discover why "their" advice didn't work, and what does work, and why does it work. I've done dozens of these experiments, watched with interest as others performed their own experiments and reported their findings, and commiserated with tortoise keepers all over the globe to learn what I've learned. I know why what "they" say is all wrong because I did it that way for decades, and though we certainly don't know everything yet, we know a lot more about what does work and why. Immersed in tortoise care and tortoise research as I have been for decades, you see a few things along the way. I like to share what I've learned to help tortoises like Boris survive and have better lives. Sometimes I succeed in this goal, and sometimes I fail, but I will continue to try.

More questions are welcome.

 

[Zaffy]

I will take Boris for a check up with a herpetologist. I meant to last year, when I noticed that Boris' nails on his front legs were wearing unevenly, and wondered if he is favouring one leg. But herpetologists are a rare breed. The only one I have come across when searching the web is in Oxford, which is a bit of a trek away.

 

[Tom]

I will take Boris for a check up with a herpetologist. I meant to last year, when I noticed that Boris' nails on his front legs were wearing unevenly, and wondered if he is favouring one leg. But herpetologists are a rare breed. The only one I have come across when searching the web is in Oxford, which is a bit of a trek away.

There is no vet or herpetologist that is going to look at a tortoise in front of them and know whether or to is is healthy, free of intestinal impaction, and being cared for correctly. A "herpetologist" is no different than a vet. People know about the animals that they keep. The more of them they keep and the longer they keep them the more they know. You could do x-rays, a blood panel, and stool sample, and that will give you some info, but that still doesn't mean the tortoise is being housed, fed, hydrated correctly or being housed at the right temperatures. You are going to a lot of trouble and expense for these people to tell you the same thing we could tell you for free by looking at pictures and asking a few questions. The difference being that the people here actually have a lot of insight and knowledge based on years of actually keeping, raising and breeding tortoises.

Unfortunately, tortoise care info has been wrong for decades, and the same wrong info keeps getting passed down from generation to generation. Some of the worst care advice for some species comes from the breeders who breed them. Vets, book authors, "experts", and almost any internet source all repeat the same wrong info, usually based on mistaken assumptions of how they live in the wild, and differences between how wild adults live vs. the almost wholly unknown habits of babies in the wild. Vets and herpetologists learn care info for all the 100s of species available from the same wrong sources as everyone else. I know this because that is what I did decades ago. I read every book I could find (before the internet), talked to vets breeders and experts, and yet failed to grow a smooth natural looking tortoise for years. Each time I would explain the expert advice I had been given, that I always followed to a "T", and each time I was given some seemingly rational reason for the failure. At no time did anyone back then even hint at what was really going on, and in fact the advice given had nothing to do with the problems I and many other people were seeing, and often the wrong advice made things worse.

I was about ready to give up on keeping Chelonians in general when I finally started to piece together the missing pieces of this puzzle. My job took me all over the world. I started seeing things in person that completely contradicted all the conventional tortoise advice that I had been receiving from every source. It took years of study, research and experimentation to figure it all out, and as I said before, we've come a long way, but will always have more to learn.

Here are my points: Most of the care info out in the world is all wrong. Vets don't know any more than any of these tortoise "experts" that give out the wrong care info, because all of them are sharing and parroting the same wrong concepts that have been parroted for years. The people here on this forum, and people sharing the information on this forum is the only source I have found for good tortoise care info. There are many here like me that have been doing this for a long time, and there has been a collaborative effort of sharing our findings with each other for well over a decade now.

Why am I telling you all this? Because its been a long hard road with lots of pitfalls. I'd like to help other people avoided those common pitfalls, and instead have healthy thriving tortoises.

 

[Cindyo]

Well what do you know, I just noticed the same thing with my two elderly red ears, ages 42 and 52. I don't remember if it happened in other years. It may have but I don't trust my memory for details that happened a year ago.

First let me tell you about them. The younger is the son of the older and was hatched in our backyard, and I've had the father for 45 years, so I do feel qualified longtime turtle-caregiver too, and able to post a credible response, albieit a rambling one. I am 70 years old, and hoping to live another 15 years to outlive even the younger one. Although a grandmother and wife, the turtles are so dependent on me that they are my strongest drive to stay alive. My two fight viciously so can't be housed together, night or day, or even be in our backyard on a nice day. This fighting is something that developed gradually during their lifespan. Because of it they have to take turns in the backyard. They don't fight with my husband's box turtles and one likes to sit with the female box turtle in the yard. But I'm sorry to get so off the topic. It just feels good to share with another long-time turtle person.

Back to the topic: I live in California and our house is on average 69 degrees at night. Each of my elderly red-ears has a 10 gal. terrarium for 12 hours of dry-time and sleeping at night, each containing a heating pad. Each heating pad has a cloth cover and is operated under thermostatic control set for 83 degrees with a sensor beneath the heating pad. Upon the heating pad is laid a hand towel, upon which the turtle is placed at night. I tuck him in by placing him on his hand towel and cover him with a washcloth to keep him warm and comfy. I have turned on the heating system an hour before bedtime when I remember, to make it comfortable for bedtime. I have been doing this for as long as I can remember. I enjoy finding the warm and sleepy turtles on their heating pads when I collect them in the morning and carry them to their separate aquariums. But lately.....

Moving off their heating pads at night is something I just noticed recently, in about February, perhaps. They were cold in the morning. At first it had me concerned that something was wrong with the setup or with them. They seemed to be healthy enough though, and with their normal appetites, so I have been lately thinking of just turning the heating off at night if they aren't going to use it, to save energy.

I, too, suspect that the turtles are getting something out of their self-imposed cold time. Maybe it helps them avoid infections that do well with heat, like hospitals and clinics have taken to doing around here (brrr).

After thinking about this post I realize that I would do well to continue to offer them the option of heating themselves. Thanks for bringing this topic more into my focus. I was not really pondering it before so as to take action. I just now pushed one of the heating pads completely to the end of the tank to allow a little more space to get off it almost completely (they are big boys), if wanted. The other heating pad already was. The turtles have been fairly cold in the morning lately so they have found a way anyway. They still keep the washcloth on though. If they were still too hot they would have climbed out of it, so I guess things have been just right! Thanks for the opportunity to share.

Cindy

 

[Zaffy]

Cindy, thank you for your insights and thoughts. These creatures are so alien to us that although we try our best, there is always doubt that we do the right thing. But surely, when we have owned theses creatures for decades, and they are in good health, we must be doing something right. Observation and noticing what they choose to do, must help us to provide for them. Your little two are fortunate to have you.