Why Do Rescues Do This

[TylerStewart]

You need to contact TylerStewart in Las Vegas; maybe you guys could meet halfway somewhere, as he is always able to find homes for Sulcata tortoises, and the market in Nevada is not saturated as it must be in Phoenix. I hope you find homes for all of those Sulcata so they don't have to live in crowded pens anymore.

How nice of you to volunteer to take care of these critters. Here's a couple of threads that have been devoted to the Sulcata "problem" here on this forum: http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-9550.html , http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-12290.html , http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-13923.html

I touched base with this "rescue" about going down there and taking a large number of sulcatas off their hands as soon as this weekend. The reply I got was that they adopt out male sulcatas only, and at the cost of $5 to $10 per pound based on how they look.... So basically, an 80 pound good looking male would go for $800, ugly ones for $400. This was the price given to me when I offered to pick up a large quantity.

I have always offered to take in any unwanted sulcatas in my area.... I have never offered to pay adoption fees. I have plenty of space for adult sulcatas; I'll even go pick them up in Phx at my cost. I am not even against paying a reasonable adoption fee... Problem is, these are not reasonable adoption fees. They're apparently "in demand" enough that they're asking and/or getting top dollar for them. This is the problem: the word gets out that there's no homes for them, and people get all emotional about it and get upset at people breeding sulcatas. Someone please let me know when dozens of adult sulcatas that are really abandoned, unwanted, or mistreated are actually available.

 

[-EJ]

RE: Of Sulcatas

My first question is they were taken in for free... why not adopt them out for free?

Second question... why are they only adopting out only males?

The 'adoption fee' is basically the going rate for people selling them on popular classifieds.

If you can't afford to adopt them out for what you take them in for you are not doing anyone a favor or are you 'helping' the cause.

I ask the shipping party to pay shipping both when I receive the animal and when I ship it out.

I think these 'rescues' have found the ultimate scam.

BTW...to the op... who is the vet that put you onto this place?

 

[TylerStewart]

RE: Of Sulcatas

I meant no disrespect to ihaveaquestion3 at all, just that this is exactly what I've said in past threads on this topic. These rescues don't want to just find them a good home - they want to find a good home with a kick back to keep them in business. Like EJ said, if you can't afford to feed them, quit collecting them. If you can take in donations in the meantime, take in donations. But if you're genuinely trying to find them good homes, you would jump at the opportunity to pass several dozen of them to a tortoise guy in Las Vegas that's capable of giving them lots of space, don't you think? I'd probably keep some, sell some.... But I'm not claiming to be a rescue either. I am also not asking for donations, or wanting in any way to be tied to the government or any of the agencies.

I can't remember the last time I saw a big male sulcata sell for nearly $1,000 (which, by weight, some of his would sell for). It's not even the "going rate;" they're priced higher than that. Reasonable adoption fee? Say, what, $50 per tortoise? And I pick? I'll be there Saturday.

Females aren't available for adoption - probably because he's "selling" babies on their website at $50ea. Funny how that all works.

 

[Neal]

RE: Of Sulcatas

EJ, I don't have the answers for you as I only volunteered there last Saturday and am not officially associated with PHS. The purpose of this thread isn't to question the integrity of PHS only to relay my experience. As I suggested, visit the web site for all the information. If you have issues or questions about PHS I would suggest starting a new thread. I'd be happy to discuss my experiences and information of my vet with you in private if you'd like? Just email me [email protected].

 

[Tom]

RE: Of Sulcatas

Tyler, I have shared your experience and agree with you completely on this issue. Keep fighting the good fight and exposing this fraudulent non-sense. I've got your back.

 

[Neal]

At this point I don't have an established opinion about this subject, I would like to hear more of why people think that it's such a bad thing as I don't see that quite so clearly. I get that asking $5 - $10 per lb for a tortoise someone received for free may be pushing it. Did anyone ask them why they charge this amount? Where exactly does the money go?

I have to consider that this is a not - for profit business, the money received from adoptions goes directly back into the organization or so it claims which I have no reason to doubt at this point. According to the website, because it is a reletivley new facility they are not eligable for federal funding, so the money has to come from somewhere.

They have ample room for provided for the tortoises, and the resources to take adaquate care of them..i.e. volunteers, on site vet, etc... So I would say that they are in no hurry to find all these tortoises a proper home. They make no claims to WANT to find homes for these tortoises, only that they have already provided them a home so as far as I see it they have the right to charge whatever they want. This may be where I am mistaken, but is a rescue facility obligated to find homes for the animals they take in? They do offer the tortoises they have for sale, just like a pet shop, but just because they are a rescue can they not do that? These tortoises have Already been rescued, so they become property of the Phoenix Herpetological Society (or whatever facility) right?
What obligation do they have to offer these tortoises to the public?

My questions are for informative purposes, I think based on the answers I can share my opinion so please don't respond attacking my inquiries as if I shared my opinion, I REALLY would like to know what those answers are.

 

[Kristina]

Here is where I think that the semantics of "rescue" again come in to play.

Are these tortoises really rescued? Or are they being collected? Bred for profit?

Species:
Baby African Sulcatta Tortoises
Sex:
Too young to determine sex
Size:
Various. Hatchlings available for adoption.
Adoption Fee:
$50 per tortoise

I got this right off their website. This is exactly why they don't adopt out females. The females are providing their cash crop.

If the excuse is that they are a relatively new facility and not yet eligible for funding, there is a simple answer to that too. I don't get federal funding. I don't get donations. That is why I only take a few animals at a time.

I admittedly don't often agree with anything EJ says, but, it is pretty dang simple - don't take in animals you can't afford to care for. If having 200 sulcatas means you have to put some of them up for sale (at those prices, I REFUSE to say adoption) for that kind of money to raise funds to feed 200 tortoises, then perhaps you should not HAVE 200 tortoises.

I am not personally attacking you either, ihaveaquestion, but your original post was pertaining to the sulcata "overpopulation" problem and what could be done to rectify it. Well, for one, this "rescue" could stop selling the babies it breeds. Actually, STOP BREEDING them sounds better.

 

[TylerStewart]

Well, and just so it's clear, my grief isn't pointed at the guy in Phoenix any more than several other so-called rescue groups. To me, when someone establishes themselves as a "rescue," the goal should be "take in unwanted animals (free) and find them good homes (free, or with minimal fee to cover recent costs, vet, etc)." Using the guy in Phoenix for an example, it says - Financially supported through donations from the public, foundations, corporations and board members of the Phoenix Herpetological Society. Which of these categories do the adoption fees fit into? I have no problem with someone just selling a tortoise - by all means, I encourage it, but I doubt if the public would easily forfeit their tortoises into a place that they knew was going to be reselling them for hundreds of dollars. They give them up because they think at a non-profit place, the tortoises won't be sold; they'll be passed into a suitable home. The "non-profit" status also brings in a large amount of donations that would otherwise not be given if the "sale" prices were out in the open. There are other rescues that do the same thing, it's not just the Phx one. I'm glad that people like Yvonne don't charge adoption fees - that's really how a rescue should be set up. I'd donate time or money into someone like her long before someone selling off the spare animals yet calling themselves a sanctuary.

Basically the conversation that took place was me saying that I had heard he had large quantities of sulcatas there, and I offered to take multiple to Las Vegas and find them homes. I explained who I was and what I do. The response was basically just that there were just males available at those prices - not much else.

 

[Neal]

Here is where I think that the semantics of "rescue" again come in to play.

Are these tortoises really rescued? Or are they being collected? Bred for profit?

Species:
Baby African Sulcatta Tortoises
Sex:
Too young to determine sex
Size:
Various. Hatchlings available for adoption.
Adoption Fee:
$50 per tortoise

I got this right off their website. This is exactly why they don't adopt out females. The females are providing their cash crop.

If the excuse is that they are a relatively new facility and not yet eligible for funding, there is a simple answer to that too. I don't get federal funding. I don't get donations. That is why I only take a few animals at a time.

I admittedly don't often agree with anything EJ says, but, it is pretty dang simple - don't take in animals you can't afford to care for. If having 200 sulcatas means you have to put some of them up for sale (at those prices, I REFUSE to say adoption) for that kind of money to raise funds to feed 200 tortoises, then perhaps you should not HAVE 200 tortoises.

I am not personally attacking you either, ihaveaquestion, but your original post was pertaining to the sulcata "overpopulation" problem and what could be done to rectify it. Well, for one, this "rescue" could stop selling the babies it breeds. Actually, STOP BREEDING them sounds better.

Do you know that the reason they are selling the tortoises is because they can't afford them? They don't indicate that on their web page, nor did they make any mention of that while I was there.

There are people that will pay those prices...I just don't see why anyone would have an issue with them doing that. If they have another way of making money why wouldn't they take advantage of that? It's business, if you don't like the idea of them selling tortoises then don't buy from them. They don't go on Kingsnake and advertise, so you have to do the work to find them. I think it's fair to say their main goal is to provide a home themselves for these tortoises (and other animals) and if you want one of their animals, you have to pay a fee, otherwise they will be OK in a good home.

I'm quite thick skinned and not trying to avoid personal attacks, its just I know things get misinturpreted on these types of forums, and I was just making inquiries.

The "overpopulation" thread made by me, was my opinion and it seems that topic has been here before and I don't wish to drag it up again, perhaps I should have looked more into it before I posted but like I said I am new. But, do they share my opinion of the sulcata "overpopulation"? I only shared my opinion as well as my veterinarian who also volunteers there, and is not an official part of the organization to my knowledge.

---

Just to clarify in my last paragraph I meant "they" being PHS, or other rescue operation for that matter.

---

With regards specifically to The Phoenix Herpetological Society (as this is the organization the origin of this debate was about) Their goals do not claim to "find homes" for all the animals they take in, only to provide a sanctuary. They only mention they relocate native animals which of course sulcatas are not, they're desert tortoise adoption program is more like an adoption as far as fees go. They sell the sulcatas for whatever reason, which is legal, ethical or not is debateable...it is not their primary goal or any goal from what I could determine. It's just something they are willing to do for those who want a tortoise.

 

[Kristina]

Do you know that the reason they are selling the tortoises is because they can't afford them? They don't indicate that on their web page, nor did they make any mention of that while I was there.

No, they do not make a direct indication of that fact. But a rescue should not have to sell animals, that is not the purpose of a rescue.

There are people that will pay those prices...I just don't see why anyone would have an issue with them doing that. If they have another way of making money why wouldn't they take advantage of that? It's business, if you don't like the idea of them selling tortoises then don't buy from them.

My issue isn't with them selling tortoises. My issue is that they are calling themselves a RESCUE and selling tortoises. You are right, it is business. Therefore it should be called what it is. If they are helping animals, fine, I commend them for that. But breeding babies and selling animals is plain and simple NOT the purpose of a RESCUE. Why is it that humane societies require their pets spayed and neutered? It is to help control the population of unwanted dogs and cats. So if there are so many unwanted tortoises out there that they are in need of rescue, would not it be more ethical to promote responsible ownership rather than breed MORE baby tortoises that can go out in the world and become abused and unwanted?

And it isn't like we are talking Spider tortoises, or Stars, or Egyptians, but SULCATAS, which have the largest clutch size and are the throw away pet of the tortoise world, right up there with Red Eared Sliders and Green Iguanas. I just took in two baby Igs that are in BAD shape. I would never, EVER consider raising up those babies and breeding them!!! It is just wrong! In fact, they will be GIVEN to a suitable home as soon as they are healthy.

I did adopt my original three Hingebacks. I do intend on breeding them. But how many CB Home's Hingebacks have you ever ran across? I have never found a single one. I am taking an animal that has been stripped from it's natural habitat and trying to give them a footing here in our world. And you can be sure I will be VERY selective about who gets my babies. But I don't consider my Hingebacks "rescues." I adopted the first three, and bought the other three. Yes they could have potentially gone on to owners that had no clue how to take care of them, but they are not rescues. And they are not Sulcatas. It makes a HUGE difference.

 

[egyptiandan]

No issue with them selling animals, just that it is quite illegal to be set-up as a non-profit company and be "selling" animals. They slip through with saying it's an adoption fee. But they aren't "rescueing" the hatchlings, they are breeding them.
We have had this discussion before about this exact same "rescue". They are a business pure and simple and are sliding under the non-profit radar.

Danny

 

[Neal]

Do you know that the reason they are selling the tortoises is because they can't afford them? They don't indicate that on their web page, nor did they make any mention of that while I was there.

No, they do not make a direct indication of that fact. But a rescue should not have to sell animals, that is not the purpose of a rescue.

There are people that will pay those prices...I just don't see why anyone would have an issue with them doing that. If they have another way of making money why wouldn't they take advantage of that? It's business, if you don't like the idea of them selling tortoises then don't buy from them.

My issue isn't with them selling tortoises. My issue is that they are calling themselves a RESCUE and selling tortoises. You are right, it is business. Therefore it should be called what it is. If they are helping animals, fine, I commend them for that. But breeding babies and selling animals is plain and simple NOT the purpose of a RESCUE. Why is it that humane societies require their pets spayed and neutered? It is to help control the population of unwanted dogs and cats. So if there are so many unwanted tortoises out there that they are in need of rescue, would not it be more ethical to promote responsible ownership rather than breed MORE baby tortoises that can go out in the world and become abused and unwanted?

And it isn't like we are talking Spider tortoises, or Stars, or Egyptians, but SULCATAS, which have the largest clutch size and are the throw away pet of the tortoise world, right up there with Red Eared Sliders and Green Iguanas. I just took in two baby Igs that are in BAD shape. I would never, EVER consider raising up those babies and breeding them!!! It is just wrong! In fact, they will be GIVEN to a suitable home as soon as they are healthy.

I did adopt my original three Hingebacks. I do intend on breeding them. But how many CB Home's Hingebacks have you ever ran across? I have never found a single one. I am taking an animal that has been stripped from it's natural habitat and trying to give them a footing here in our world. And you can be sure I will be VERY selective about who gets my babies. But I don't consider my Hingebacks "rescues." I adopted the first three, and bought the other three. Yes they could have potentially gone on to owners that had no clue how to take care of them, but they are not rescues. And they are not Sulcatas. It makes a HUGE difference.

How do we know that they are breeding the babies? Couldn't it be that they take in some female sulcatas who lay eggs, then charge a minimal adoption fee for the babies? $50 is a reasonable adoption price for a baby sulcata that normally sells for $100, atleast from the adds I've seen.

Maybe they do discourage breeding which is why they don't give out the females to people who might breed them. There are two seperate pens, perhaps they keep the males in one and females in the other, I didn't ask so I don't know.

My arguments are that people were quick to attack this "rescue" without ALL the information, I don't have all the information, I just don't see how your arguments indicate this facility is wrong in selling the sulcatas, or why this is a debateable topic. Because I have visited the facility and beleive it to be a good sanctuary and all that it claims to be, I am debating this. As I said I don't have a formulated opinion so if it does turn out that this organization is breeding sulcatas and selling them, but telling people that there is a sulcata problem then I would agree that they are frauds.

---

No issue with them selling animals, just that it is quite illegal to be set-up as a non-profit company and be "selling" animals. They slip through with saying it's an adoption fee. But they aren't "rescueing" the hatchlings, they are breeding them.
We have had this discussion before about this exact same "rescue". They are a business pure and simple and are sliding under the non-profit radar.

Danny

Dan, do you know that they are actually breeding them? I can't find the link to the previous discussion, would you happen to have a link of the thread? I'll keep looking though...interesting post, I was not aware it was illegal for a non-profit to sell the animals. It does sound a little sneaky.

 

[Kristina]

How do we know that they are breeding the babies? Couldn't it be that they take in some female sulcatas who lay eggs, then charge a minimal adoption fee for the babies? $50 is a reasonable adoption price for a baby sulcata that normally sells for $100, atleast from the adds I've seen.

Um, why aren't they destroying the eggs? If they take in a female Sulcata and it lays eggs, they could in the least feed those eggs to their monitors, or just tear them open and destroy them.

Here are a few Kingsnake ads, also, less than $100 for baby Sulcatas

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=752270

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=757426

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=765965

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=757152

 

[Neal]

How do we know that they are breeding the babies? Couldn't it be that they take in some female sulcatas who lay eggs, then charge a minimal adoption fee for the babies? $50 is a reasonable adoption price for a baby sulcata that normally sells for $100, atleast from the adds I've seen.

Um, why aren't they destroying the eggs? If they take in a female Sulcata and it lays eggs, they could in the least feed those eggs to their monitors, or just tear them open and destroy them.

Here are a few Kingsnake ads, also, less than $100 for baby Sulcatas

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=752270

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=757426

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=765965

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=757152

Perhaps that opens up a different debate, if its wrong of someone to destroy the eggs or let nature do its thing. But why would they destroy the eggs?

My point was that I didn't see how it was an issue for them to charge any amount they wanted to for the tortoises they have. Dan's post cleared that up though, so I can see where the other side of the issue is. Informative it has been, perhaps they are just a business plain and simple, but the important thing is they do take in animals that otherwise would not have an acceptable home. Not that it rights any wrongs, but the animals having a good home is the more important thing regardless of the organizations business dealings.

 

[Kristina]

Perhaps that opens up a different debate, if its wrong of someone to destroy the eggs or let nature do its thing. But why would they destroy the eggs?

Letting nature take it's course makes no sense. These are not Desert torts, or Texas torts, or Florida Gophers, and they have no place in the "nature" of the United States. They are outsiders, imports, transplants. There is nothing more UN-natural than that!

Why would they destroy the eggs? Because as I said before, if these people really wanted to be proactive about the "overpopulation" of unwanted Sulcatas, they wouldn't make more! So you destroy an egg. It's an EGG. I didn't say shove baby tortoises in the freezer.

 

[Tortuga_terrestre]

Oh my...oh my.. That dreadful overly used word. RESCUE!!!!

 

[egyptiandan]

If you have adult males and females together, than you are breeding them. Like Kristina said, it's easy enough to destroy eggs.
Here is the thread http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-5029.html?highlight=society

Danny

 

[Kristina]

I remember that thread clearly.

 

[Neal]

If you have adult males and females together, than you are breeding them. Like Kristina said, it's easy enough to destroy eggs.
Here is the thread http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-5029.html?highlight=society

Danny

I get that, I just wanted to know if you knew for a fact that they were housed together? As I mentioned there are two pens, perhaps one for the males one for the females...just a thought, unlikely I know with so many animals.

---

Perhaps that opens up a different debate, if its wrong of someone to destroy the eggs or let nature do its thing. But why would they destroy the eggs?

Letting nature take it's course makes no sense. These are not Desert torts, or Texas torts, or Florida Gophers, and they have no place in the "nature" of the United States. They are outsiders, imports, transplants. There is nothing more UN-natural than that!

Why would they destroy the eggs? Because as I said before, if these people really wanted to be proactive about the "overpopulation" of unwanted Sulcatas, they wouldn't make more! So you destroy an egg. It's an EGG. I didn't say shove baby tortoises in the freezer.

Ok true it makes no sense, but maybe what I should ask is whats the difference with destroying eggs and shoving baby tortoises in the freezer? Thats another topic though and I only bring it up to provide another view.

 

[chadk]

Sounds like they would best be described as: "sanctuary + breeder + flipper". Not really a 'rescue' in the sense of the word that most would use. And if what they are doing is illegal, I hope they get busted.

FYI - 'flipper' is someone who takes in a pet who is being adopted out to a 'good home' only for free or very low fee, pretending to be a good home, only to snatch it up and turn around and sell it for profit. Really, it is good business... buy low, sell high. But I just don't like it when folks aren't up front about what they are really doing.