Hmmmmmmm. The gist seems to be that inadequate moisture inhibits proper bone growth.
The gist seems to be that inadequate moisture inhibits proper KERATIN growth.Hmmmmmmm. The gist seems to be that inadequate moisture inhibits proper bone growth.
Craig:
I think we will always see minor differences in "perfectly" kept individuals, no matter what we do. We will not see the dramatic pyramiding, but will get slight pyramiding in some. I believe that may have to do with genetics, just as different individual humans have very different growing fingernails - some thick and hard, other almost paper thin. I've heard enough women complain about that in reference to keeping their nails!
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I don't know!!When you say genetics, what do you mean? Are you saying if both parents have severe pyramiding the chances of offspring to grow smooth are slim, Or are you saying what both parents should have looked like if cared for correctly would be genetic. When does pyramiding become genetic?
food for thought thanksALFALFA,=This legume is very high in protein, and although a little will not harm a tortoise, it is best avoided.
BROCCOLI,=Broccoli contains goitrogens that interfere with thyroid activity and could damage the liver and kidneys. Therefore, although Broccoli is not actually toxic, you are advised to not feed it to your tortoise.
KALE,= Kale has a high calcium content and only half the oxalic acid of dandelions, making it a potentially nutritious food.
Unfortunately, like all the brassicas, it is also high in goitrogens (which interfere with iodine uptake, resulting in thyroid problems). However, Kale also has a high iodine content, which lessens the goitrogen effect and it is therefore acceptable to feed to your tortoise in moderation, especially in winter with non-hibernating tortoises, when fresh weeds are scarce.
SPINACH=Spinach contains a high level of calcium, but it also contains oxalic acid which binds with calcium in the diet and prevents the tortoise from absorbing and using it. In addition, it possesses a high level of calcium oxalate crystals which contribute to the formation of kidney stones. Some of the calcium oxalate is in the form of needle-shaped crystals called raphides, and when consumed in large amounts these can irritate the skin and mucous membranes in the mouth and throat.
So although Spinach is not toxic as such, and small amounts are unlikely to cause a tortoise any great damage, given the potential it has to limit calcium intake and cause internal irritation, we do not recommend that people feed it to their tortoises.
and the odd STRAWBERRY =
Older leaves develop toxins, so only offer young leaves as part of a varied diet and never the fruit, unless your tortoise is a tropical fruit-eating species. Contains tannins.
Often in the past, feeding canned dog or cat food was recommended as well as other misguided information was passed down to keepers to the point that even many zoos were caring for their tortoises incorrectly.
One of the wonderful aspects of this tortoise community here at the forum is that we all equally share our pains and our gains regarding the raising of tortoises. For instance in regard to an idea you postulated concerning feeding wild hatchlings and this putting their growth food ratio all catty-wompus and out of sorts I need to point out that most tortoises in their native range are endangered either critically or at the least at a threatened level. This in and of itself would produce the very situation you would be providing by offering abundant food to hatchlings, (less competition for food resources=more proper food for the remaining native tortoises. Food/growth ratio all thrown out with the trash. Yet we still don't find real wild tortoises with pyramiding present.
My conclusion is that pyramiding is caused by a lack of hydration which leads to the death of cells on the outside ring of the scutes. This repeated live/die cycle continues until the cells just keep piling up on each other creating a pyramid. Hope this helps you figure it out. Remember, I've never seen a smooth sulcata smoke tobacco, but this doesn't convince me that pyramiding is caused by tortoises that do not smoke so I won't be teaching any of mine to pick up the habit soon to remain smooth. I'm hopping spelling and grammar we're all good in this thread, it's much too long for me to proof read it all.
Hmmmmmmm. The gist seems to be that inadequate moisture inhibits proper bone growth.
Even if genetics plays a part, I don't think it's pyramiding itself that is genetic, but maybe just succeptabilty to pyramiding.When you say genetics, what do you mean? Are you saying if both parents have severe pyramiding the chances of offspring to grow smooth are slim, Or are you saying what both parents should have looked like if cared for correctly would be genetic. When does pyramiding become genetic?
I've noticed this as well. Surly there is a good biological explanation, but for the life of me I can't think what it is.Does anyone know why some torts seem to grow with a nice white thin line of keratin(think it's keratin) following the growth steadily and some torts seem to develop a crevice that is followed by keratin filling the crevice up after. The ones that don't develop the crevice seem to grow smoother. It's as though the crevice growing type have the keratin growth lagging behind. An example of both below.
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Thanks Mike.I've noticed this as well. Surly there is a good biological explanation, but for the life of me I can't think what it is.
There is so much we don't know. The nature / nurture debate will continue. As it should. Even in identical twin studies , over time , there are differences both physically & emotionally that become pronounced.
Without getting all technical - same parent siblings will react to & respond differently to diet , exercise , & environment. Our body chemistries are not identical. Our mental & psychological makups vary. Even our ability to process & extract our physical needs from food vary.
I have a brother who is lactos intolerant ( I'm not ) and another who can't get anywhere near poison ivy ( but I can pick it up w/o a problem ).
My mom swore all she had to do was look at a piece of cake & would gain 5lbs. Lol.
We would like to know as much as possible to provide optimum care for our torts. And are learning all the time. But an exact science it is not.
So what your saying is no matter how wide the new seem is there is a thin continuous layer of keratin ready to expand and fill the seem?Craig
Not in agreement with your hypothesis here. Pyramiding is caused by keratin growth deforming the underlying bone. The bone itself deforms and creates larger and larger valleys. In order for that to happen, the keratin growth is continuing, not being in a state to "not catch up to bone growth". Its just in dry conditions, the keratin dries too quickly, before it has filled in to its thickness yet. The stiffer, drying keratin that then forms, forces the continuing keratin growth in a downward direction. It is not that keratin growth stops, or cannot keep up. It is keratin growth drying while still forming its depth.
Now with faster growth, you have a larger, wider seam that is exposed to drying conditions, if present. So it would seem easier to pyramid a faster growing tortoise, or in another way of looking at it - it is more critical that conditions are humid and correct for a longer and more consistent basis for a faster growing tortoise.
This is where I depart a bit from @cdmay I feel wild tortoise will grow just as fast, but they do it in spurts and only in the prime time of year, which may only be 4 months or so out of the 12. Its just in those prime growing times, the conditions are correct for the tortoise to find moist, cover and places to dig in that are also moist to keep the shell well hydrated. The same conditions that allow nutritious foods to grow, also provide puddles and moist ground in which to burrow and cover. Very young tortoises are rarely encountered in the wild. That is very well because they are mostly covered up somewhere - both for protection from predators, and also, coincidentally keeping nice, moist substrate on top of their shells. In the drier times of year, they are not growing, but aestivating. No new growth to dry out. Nice tight growth rings created.
Yes. Keratin grows in response to the expanding bone growth beneath. The seams of the scutes are not aligned at all with the seams, or sutures of the bone plates. That give the tortoise shell much more strength. But the areolae of the scute is "attached" to the underlying bone at that point only for the scute. So as the bone growth expands, seams are created between the scutes. Keratin fills those seams as a natural part of normal growth. Depending upon the scute and its location, you will see different parts of the scute develop dramatically different seam width. Especially with the costals. The attached areolae part is towards the top of the scute, as the lower part of the scute area in the costals is mostly fontanelles and open, without bone, the first few years of growth for a tortoise. So the top seam of a costal is very narrow, but the lower seams are extremely wide. If we look at this we can see that since there is no underlying bone there yet, it is an area that will be very resistant to pyramiding in a very young tortoise. There is no bone to deform yet! But there is plenty of new keratin that will always develop, even in the widest of seams.So what your saying is no matter how wide the new seem is there is a thin continuous layer of keratin ready to expand and fill the seem?
I understand that wild torts will only grow when conditions permit them to. But what about the actual time its growing for. For example, lets say a wild tort only has 6 months per year in ideal conditions and a captive tort has 12 months. Are you suggesting that both torts will grow at the same pace during the wild torts 6 month ideal conditions period. If yes, why are wild torts bowling ball smooth and captive bred are not? Is it purely abrasion on the wild carapace.
Just an observation. Several years ago at the San Diego Zoo I saw some young Galaps about 12-15" size raised from their Galap herd. They were surprisingly quite pyramided. They were fed well, had plenty of hydration and sunshine. This would seem to disagree with your premises. I believe they are one of the premier Galap zoos in the world and work closely with the Conservancy.
Anyway. Can someone either prove me right or wrong please.