Deformed shell

leigti

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No mention of overfeeding? Too much of a good thing can cause problems.
How about the scenario that animals kept outdoors will have their shells worn by the elements.
I personally don't care for animals that have shells that appear to be made of plastic...
I have something to say about the overfeeding issue. I never knew that show issues could be caused by overfeeding until I caused that problem in my tortoise. I posted a picture of my tortoise because I noticed that in a very short period of time, 4 to 6 weeks, Hershell suddenly and dramatically curled up in the front and the back.I was immediately given many of the comments suggestions, proper lighting proper hydration proper food etc. and was basically told my tortoise had MBD.I do not fault any of the people for saying that because from the information they had it was an extremely logical conclusion. However there were a lot of circumstances that made that not true. After many vet visits and consults from a vet schools the conclusion was that my tortoises bottom shell is outgrowing her top one. I was so confused, I thought I had done everything right, substrate, hydration, calcium etc. And many people here were stumped by it also.Much of this had to do with injuries to the top shell that she had before I got her. But it was accelerated by the fact that I overfed her weeds when they started coming up in the spring. I had read somewhere on this forum, I don't know who said it and it does not matter, that a tortoise could not over eat when they are eating the right food. Wrong. They can if their enclosure is not big enough, she was still in her indoor enclosure 6' x 2' because the weather was not yet warm enough to be outside for any length of time. I put her out side in her well planted, now I realize too well planted, outdoor enclosure for an hour or two at a time once in a while which also contributed to the problem. so the problem was not the wrong food wrong lighting wrong substrate etc. the problem was too much of the good food. I had all the best intentions, the vet had seen her a month before and everything was wonderful but I still screwed up and I will never forgive myself for it.she is healthy, has no MBD or parasites and is doing great but she will always have to deal with difficulties advancing her hind legs because the bottum shell is in the way. If you want that even longer version of the story :) you can check out my thread on "tortoise dragging his shell" by the way I thought my tortoise was a male I was wrong in so many ways :) this picture shows the problem the best, it seems to be slightly less pronounced now.ImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1411703452.907360.jpg
 

Tom

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I have something to say about the overfeeding issue. I never knew that show issues could be caused by overfeeding until I caused that problem in my tortoise. I posted a picture of my tortoise because I noticed that in a very short period of time, 4 to 6 weeks, Hershell suddenly and dramatically curled up in the front and the back.I was immediately given many of the comments suggestions, proper lighting proper hydration proper food etc. and was basically told my tortoise had MBD.I do not fault any of the people for saying that because from the information they had it was an extremely logical conclusion. However there were a lot of circumstances that made that not true. After many vet visits and consults from a vet schools the conclusion was that my tortoises bottom shell is outgrowing her top one. I was so confused, I thought I had done everything right, substrate, hydration, calcium etc. And many people here were stumped by it also.Much of this had to do with injuries to the top shell that she had before I got her. But it was accelerated by the fact that I overfed her weeds when they started coming up in the spring. I had read somewhere on this forum, I don't know who said it and it does not matter, that a tortoise could not over eat when they are eating the right food. Wrong. They can if their enclosure is not big enough, she was still in her indoor enclosure 6' x 2' because the weather was not yet warm enough to be outside for any length of time. I put her out side in her well planted, now I realize too well planted, outdoor enclosure for an hour or two at a time once in a while which also contributed to the problem. so the problem was not the wrong food wrong lighting wrong substrate etc. the problem was too much of the good food. I had all the best intentions, the vet had seen her a month before and everything was wonderful but I still screwed up and I will never forgive myself for it.she is healthy, has no MBD or parasites and is doing great but she will always have to deal with difficulties advancing her hind legs because the bottum shell is in the way. If you want that even longer version of the story :) you can check out my thread on "tortoise dragging his shell" by the way I thought my tortoise was a male I was wrong in so many ways :) this picture shows the problem the best, it seems to be slightly less pronounced now.View attachment 97442

You see? This is the sort of post that makes me crazy. How many russians have you raised and cared for over the years? How many have you free fed (too much according to you) and how many have you intentionally under fed? From what I have seen you have one russian tortoise and you have a few months of tortoise experience. Please correct me if I am wrong. You certainly have something going on there, but to blame it on an excess of high fiber weedy food and to be so certain about it, makes no sense. Now you are here posting this info as if it is fact and trying to teach people a lesson. I have raised and cared for dozens of russians over the last few decades. I currently have 20. I have always free fed every single one of them, and currently free feed mine now, as well as letting them graze as much as they want daily, and I have never experienced the problem you are having. In fact my young russians were in 60x18" indoor enclosures, so even smaller than your enclosure, and not a single one out of 20 is experiencing the problem that yours is having.

When I say they can't be overfed the right stuff, I base it on more than 3 decades of russian experience with dozens of animals housed in a wide variety of circumstances. When you say they can be overfed, you base in on a few months with one tortoise. Do you see why this would make someone want to comment? Now people will say that I've been too harsh and I'm going to scare you away, but this sort of thing needs to be pointed out. It needs to be dealt with. I just cannot leave misinformation hanging out there for people to read and say nothing about it.

Leigti, I think you know by now that I like you and appreciate your contributions to the forum. You've been around a while, so I don't think a post like this will scare you off, but what is a person to do when they see erroneous info reported as fact and given in the form of advice to others. What is a person to do when they know the person asserting such things does not have the background to back up there assertions? I mean you no disrespect and do not intend to hurt your feelings. My contention is with the tortoise advise you are dispensing and what it is based upon. This is like Ascott (who I like very much) dispensing info on how to raise sulcatas even though she has never raised a single one in any fashion. Drives me batty. How does a person know that an animal should be raised one way or another, when they have not done it in any way at all?

Conclusions are good, but may I request that we don't jump to them based on hardly any info, or in contrast to a whole lotta contradictory info?
 

leigti

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You see? This is the sort of post that makes me crazy. How many russians have you raised and cared for over the years? How many have you free fedyou're right Tom I don't have a lot of experience. And when this happened I didn't know why and I was very confused. I base my conclusions on several hours of analyzing and discussions between me and three different veterinarians at the vet school.they ruled out everything else and said that's what it was. I realize that it was not just overfeeding that was the problem, it was that in the combination of the past crushing injury that she had that damaged her top shelf.so it wasn't just one thing, and I'm sorry if I post sounded like it was. One member pegged it exactly, at least agreed with everything the vet said before they even got to the conclusion :)I am a very rational person and I analyze the crap out of everything, sorry moderators, so I did not come to this conclusion by myself or with just a little bit of data.this situation is very rare and certainly doesn't happen often as a cause for sheltie formation. I realize that. But if I treated like MBD it would not have solved, or slow down actually the problem.I have not shared this with other people, except in that very first thread I started back then, because I realize it is more of an oddball situation but I figured the people on this thread would understand that.I would never bring this up to somebody new with tortoises.I don't take every word my vet says to heart, I actually research things through this forum much more because there are more knowledgeable people here but in this area I think my vet and the otherwere right.I will never forgive myself for what I did to my tortoise, but I am also not taking 100% blame either. The most important thing is I learned and I will not let it happen again. I basically wrote that out to share that, Like Benjamin said, there are other causes of shelled T-formation than just NBD.and no you did not hurt my feelings and I respect the opinions of everybody on this forum. (too much according to you) and how many have you intentionally under fed? From what I have seen you have one russian tortoise and you have a few months of tortoise experience. Please correct me if I am wrong. You certainly have something going on there, but to blame it on an excess of high fiber weedy food and to be so certain about it, makes no sense. Now you are here posting this info as if it is fact and trying to teach people a lesson. I have raised and cared for dozens of russians over the last few decades. I currently have 20. I have always free fed every single one of them, and currently free feed mine now, as well as letting them graze as much as they want daily, and I have never experienced the problem you are having. In fact my young russians were in 60x18" indoor enclosures, so even smaller than your enclosure, and not a single one out of 20 is experiencing the problem that yours is having.

When I say they can't be overfed the right stuff, I base it on more than 3 decades of russian experience with dozens of animals housed in a wide variety of circumstances. When you say they can be overfed, you base in on a few months with one tortoise. Do you see why this would make someone want to comment? Now people will say that I've been too harsh and I'm going to scare you away, but this sort of thing needs to be pointed out. It needs to be dealt with. I just cannot leave misinformation hanging out there for people to read and say nothing about it.

Leigti, I think you know by now that I like you and appreciate your contributions to the forum. You've been around a while, so I don't think a post like this will scare you off, but what is a person to do when they see erroneous info reported as fact and given in the form of advice to others. What is a person to do when they know the person asserting such things does not have the background to back up there assertions? I mean you no disrespect and do not intend to hurt your feelings. My contention is with the tortoise advise you are dispensing and what it is based upon. This is like Ascott (who I like very much) dispensing info on how to raise sulcatas even though she has never raised a single one in any fashion. Drives me batty. How does a person know that an animal should be raised one way or another, when they have not done it in any way at all?

Conclusions are good, but may I request that we don't jump to them based on hardly any info, or in contrast to a whole lotta contradictory info?
 

Alaskamike

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You see? This is the sort of post that makes me crazy. How many russians have you raised and cared for over the years? How many have you free fed (too much according to you) and how many have you intentionally under fed? From what I have seen you have one russian tortoise and you have a few months of tortoise experience. Please correct me if I am wrong. You certainly have something going on there, but to blame it on an excess of high fiber weedy food and to be so certain about it, makes no sense. Now you are here posting this info as if it is fact and trying to teach people a lesson. I have raised and cared for dozens of russians over the last few decades. I currently have 20. I have always free fed every single one of them, and currently free feed mine now, as well as letting them graze as much as they want daily, and I have never experienced the problem you are having. In fact my young russians were in 60x18" indoor enclosures, so even smaller than your enclosure, and not a single one out of 20 is experiencing the problem that yours is having.

When I say they can't be overfed the right stuff, I base it on more than 3 decades of russian experience with dozens of animals housed in a wide variety of circumstances. When you say they can be overfed, you base in on a few months with one tortoise. Do you see why this would make someone want to comment? Now people will say that I've been too harsh and I'm going to scare you away, but this sort of thing needs to be pointed out. It needs to be dealt with. I just cannot leave misinformation hanging out there for people to read and say nothing about it.

Leigti, I think you know by now that I like you and appreciate your contributions to the forum. You've been around a while, so I don't think a post like this will scare you off, but what is a person to do when they see erroneous info reported as fact and given in the form of advice to others. What is a person to do when they know the person asserting such things does not have the background to back up there assertions? I mean you no disrespect and do not intend to hurt your feelings. My contention is with the tortoise advise you are dispensing and what it is based upon. This is like Ascott (who I like very much) dispensing info on how to raise sulcatas even though she has never raised a single one in any fashion. Drives me batty. How does a person know that an animal should be raised one way or another, when they have not done it in any way at all?

Conclusions are good, but may I request that we don't jump to them based on hardly any info, or in contrast to a whole lotta contradictory info?
If you read leigti's post you see that this was not based on a few months of experience but on consult with a Vet , in fact "after many vet visits and consults with a vet school..."

And here is the issue we often face in trying to obtain the correct information -
There is just so much of it, and frequently conflicting info from what most would expect to be experts.

If you look back at the last 40 yrs of tortoise keeping , review the books , magazine articles, and hobbyists info available you get a crazy mix of conflicting info , much of it we now know was wrong. Even today it is crazy the amount of outdated info on the internet.

I've no doubt Tom that your experience trumps any vets info. They are not experts on any one species and frequently have no long term hands on experience. But you can see why folks go to them , and want to believe what they are told. I see " take your tort to a vet" frequently as advice here from seasoned members. And rightly so.

This forum provides a valuable service to us as keepers and the health and well being of our torts. Undoubtably the best resource available on the internet. I am glad you Tom are a vibrant part of that and so willing to share bluntly your knowledge. My original post was not about you , or the dozens of other experienced keepers who go into great detail with instruction and education. It was directed at what I saw as unhelpful critical posts that seemed only to exhibit a superior and critical attitude. As well as an immediate over emphasis on a singular issue ( and I know this is the part you and others disagree with).
 

Tom

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If you read leigti's post you see that this was not based on a few months of experience but on consult with a Vet , in fact "after many vet visits and consults with a vet school..."

Point taken Mike. You are correct.

However, the info she gave was not accurate, in my experience, and her answer to my post explains that her tortoise had some sort of previous shell crushing injury. It is obvious to me that this prior injury is the primary cause of what she is experiencing, and not feeding too many weeds to her tortoise.

My point, the point as it pertains to this discussion and thread, is that I can't let information lie if I believe it to be incorrect or possibly detrimental to a tortoise. I think your point in this discussion is all about how those concerns are addressed. And I'm listening and paying attention to what is being said.
 

leigti

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Sorry I'll try again, in response to @Tom @ascott @FLINTUS first I would like to say that I will avoid late night texting because I obviously did not express myself clearly. My point was to say that not all shell D formations are pyramiding and therefore are not caused by the same thing. and I know that much of my tortoises shell problem is from the past injuries. and my vet as well as the reptile specialist vets at the veterinary hospital all own tortoises of their own so they have more than just book learning on the topic. we evaluated everything possible to figure out what the problem was, including the difference in care from the first spring I had her to the second spring I had her. The first spring, actually I should change that too late fall in any case, she had a coil bulb okay shoot me now :), 3 x 2' enclosure, load the gun again :), and was fed grocery store greens. The gun should be empty by now :) The second spring she had a power son hundred watt bulb, a 2 x 6 enclosure, and had been fed barely any grocery store greens but a great deal of weeds. all the x-rays and bloodwork etc. came out normal. So basically The amount of food was the default cause on my end, not a darn thing I can do about the prior injuries..we also determined that the supplements, humidity, soaking, temps etc. were all correct both years. And my vet had just seen her a little over a month before this and there were no problems, it happened very very fast. like I said many people responded on the forum with ideas of what it could be and we, the vets and I systematically went through every possibility suggested as well as possibilities that they knew and none came up. I have never shared this information before and believe me I never will again. I didn't realize what problem it would cause.

I realize it is extremely difficult to get every bit of information you need in a forum situation to make a proper "diagnosis" sometimes. I am not offended by what people have said and I hope I didn't offend anybody either.
 

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there is absolutely no way that a tortoise can over eat is that food item is grass and weeds growing in the yard...now, if you offer grocery store junk always and offer too much of that --then yes, you can overfeed----but even if you overfeed too much grocery store stuff...the dome of the shell will not outgrow the plastron----just won't....there is something else going on....just my opinion.

:<3:
 

leigti

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The bottom shell is the one that is bigger. The top shell is the one with the crushing injury.
 

Abdulla6169

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The bottom shell is the one that is bigger. The top shell is the one with the crushing injury.
Maybe the crushing injury halted the growth of the carapace, probably because the cells that are responsible for new keratin growth had been injured/died. Then the plastron, which is completely healthy, outgrew the carapace. That is what I see.
 

ascott

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The bottom shell is the one that is bigger. The top shell is the one with the crushing injury.

Either way...the same would apply. Also, let me say---I don't think that you opened anything that should be taken in a negative way...I mean after all....you offered great merit in what the vets and school personnel had to say, right? Well, I believe that this forum is filled with as good of a "guess" as those folks....and here is why I say it...those folks did not tell you any proven reason for the difference of the shell....but they did calculated deductions as part of their opinion...again, they did not offer supported facts to their conclusion---no more than here..so, I would have to say that I am going to go back and read your prior posts on this tortoise...and see what "I" think, just for fun anyways....

I would suggest though...to not reduce food from this tortoise because you think it is a fatty....in the pic you provided here...that does not appear to be the issue at all...."in my opinion" anyways...
 

leigti

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Maybe the crushing injury halted the growth of the carapace, probably because the cells that are responsible for new keratin growth had been injured/died. Then the plastron, which is completely healthy, outgrew the carapace. That is what I see.
That is exactly it. But they also felt that the pretty sudden increase of food made her grow quickly which exaggerated the effects. That is why I do take some but not all of the responsibility. But I still feel terrible.
 

leigti

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Either way...the same would apply. Also, let me say---I don't think that you opened anything that should be taken in a negative way...I mean after all....you offered great merit in what the vets and school personnel had to say, right? Well, I believe that this forum is filled with as good of a "guess" as those folks....and here is why I say it...those folks did not tell you any proven reason for the difference of the shell....but they did calculated deductions as part of their opinion...again, they did not offer supported facts to their conclusion---no more than here..so, I would have to say that I am going to go back and read your prior posts on this tortoise...and see what "I" think, just for fun anyways....

I would suggest though...to not reduce food from this tortoise because you think it is a fatty....in the pic you provided here...that does not appear to be the issue at all...."in my opinion" anyways...
You're right, there is no "evidence". It is basically the conclusion when no other problems can be found. I work in the healthcare field and this happens with you and medicine also. You rule out everything and sometimes you're just left with the best gas possible.I admit when I first heard itI wasn't sure about it either. But I have had a long time to think about it inconsiderate so I do not feel it is an outrageous claim. I have thought about taking another picture in the exact same pose to see if anything has changed since then. The crushing injury was definitely a contributing factor and it was not ignored.my concern was that I was doing something to hurt my tortoise although unintentionally of course.I am not holding back food from my tortoise now. Although I did cut back the amount of free range time she had in her outdoor very well planted :)enclosure for about A month.this coming spring I may do the same thing, outdoor time but not in the planted pen. Just to prevent fast growth, obviously the shell cannot handle that and it's not good for them anyway.The vet was worried about continued fast growth. I definitely didn't want it to get worse because it was already affecting the way he can walk.The walking has not improved greatly, she still drags her shell on the ground a little bit.I don't mind the debate on this topic, but I just don't want people to think that the conclusion was come to quickly and that many many other things were not considered and looked into.
 

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That is exactly it. But they also felt that the pretty sudden increase of food made her grow quickly which exaggerated the effects. That is why I do take some but not all of the responsibility. But I still feel terrible.
It was going to happen anyways if that's the case. A growth spurt can happen at any time. And he was going to grow to adult size anyways, so why blame yourself? I don't see how offering lots of food will exaggerate it.
 

leigti

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I believe you are incorrect in your assumption...here is why I think that.....the tortoise that lives in that shell, is not fat, that tortoise that lives in that shell looks underweight to me.....there is no way that overfeeding of grocery food items nor free grazing is causing that issue, there is plain and simple evidence right in the pic....also, that turtle in the other pic is not heavy either---that flaring is common and likely due to the uva/uvb and dry out time being lacking.....now, you two can jump on me because I happen to not ride the "its a fatty thing train"....but it is clear to me what it is NOT.....
I definitely don't think that my tortoises fat at all, I have felt that she is actually a little underweight. I think the concerns that the vet had was that there was very fast growth due to a short period of eating a lot of food.The weights are within normal limits according to a chart that I got off of here about a year and a half ago. So the overall weight has never been an issue I don't think,.I think the bottom sell grew relatively normally and the top shelf didn't because of previous injuries, it curled up in the front and back instead of out.but the growth in both of them was very quick. And that's where the main problem lies.
 

ascott

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I understand what you are sharing.....here is what I would be concerned with...if you underfeed the tortoise during a time that it should be growing are you not concerned developmentally as an overall that the tort will be negatively affected? I mean, you know that the tort will always have an issue with the shell, right? So "I" would be concerned if you retard that growth in hopes of slowing the growth of the shell, then you may also be offering slowing of other developmental issue that you can not so apparently see? I hope that I explained that right :D
 

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I definitely don't think that my tortoises fat at all, I have felt that she is actually a little underweight. I think the concerns that the vet had was that there was very fast growth due to a short period of eating a lot of food.The weights are within normal limits according to a chart that I got off of here about a year and a half ago. So the overall weight has never been an issue I don't think,.I think the bottom sell grew relatively normally and the top shelf didn't because of previous injuries, it curled up in the front and back instead of out.but the growth in both of them was very quick. And that's where the main problem lies.
What would the difference be it the growth was slower? The bottom shell will still grow more than the top shell, won't it?
 

leigti

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I understand what you are sharing.....here is what I would be concerned with...if you underfeed the tortoise during a time that it should be growing are you not concerned developmentally as an overall that the tort will be negatively affected? I mean, you know that the tort will always have an issue with the shell, right? So "I" would be concerned if you retard that growth in hopes of slowing the growth of the shell, then you may also be offering slowing of other developmental issue that you can not so apparently see? I hope that I explained that right :D
Yes, I understand what you are saying. When I say that I limited access to the outdoor pen I still fed my tortoise the same amount I did over the winter, I just didn't let her have free roam of the pen with all its sprouting yummy Ness. I definitely don't underfeed this tortoise :) she has grown half an inch since I got her almost 2 years ago.I have always felt that her back legs are pretty scrawny compared to other Russian tortoises I have seen but I don't know if that's true. Don't worry she's not starving, I would never let that happen :)
 
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