Baby Behavior

[MatrixDJ]

Hi everyone,

I think I'm freaking myself out again.. Can someone describe the normal behavior of a baby tortoise during this time of year please.

 

[GBtortoises]

What is "normal" or abnormal behavior depends greatly upon the environment the tortoise is in. I think we'd need more information on what environmental conditions that tortoise is being exposed to such as: day/night/basking temperatures & daily light duration; ambient air humidity/substrate moisture/tortoise hydration; substrate & security (hiding places). Possibly even diet would help.

 

[MatrixDJ]

What is "normal" or abnormal behavior depends greatly upon the environment the tortoise is in. I think we'd need more information on what environmental conditions that tortoise is being exposed to such as: day/night/basking temperatures & daily light duration; ambient air humidity/substrate moisture/tortoise hydration; substrate & security (hiding places). Possibly even diet would help.

Ok, here is a husbandry and some pics. The basking temp is about 103 in the hottest spot and about 70 in the coldest. At night, her hide spot/sleep are is about 75-80. There is a heat pad under her log where she sleeps at night. I am not sure about the humidity because I don't have a hygrometer but it is quite humid because of the way I keep the substrate. I am gonna grab a hygrometer at the store next time I stop by however. The substrate is 70% cypress mulch and 30% peet moss for water retention. I poar water into the mulch and turn it to mix it up once a week to keep it wet underneath the surface. I mist the surface and the tortoise once every day after Athena gets a 15 min soak. There is a water dish and food available at all times. The table has seed mix from carolina pet supply planted and growing in the table, I add dusted spring mix and occasional fruit or squash mixed with Zoo Med Grassland pellets as a mash. You can see the hide spots in the pics. I will not brumate her till at least 3 years. I do feel that she has been trying to brumate and that is the reason for this behavior.

Lately, she has been eating once every three days or so. She has been pooping during soaks for the most part but not all. She also has been sleeping all day! I even have to get her up in the morning too.. Any advice/critism would be welcomed!! Thank you all!

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Mike:

That's a beautiful enclosure.

Although your temperatures sound ok, my first thought was that because of the size of the enclosure, maybe the baby isn't quite warm enough.

Sorry...that's about all that comes to mind.

 

[MatrixDJ]

Thank you for the response Yvonne. I don't think that is it because if I set her under the heat lamp she gets to hot and moves away to a comfortable spot. Good thought however and it crossed my mind too.

 

[ascott]

To walk the block with Yvonne....I believe that there needs to be overall temp of the enclosure as well as then cool- mild- hot spots....I believe that I would think that if there were some type of top over a large part of the enclosure that would allow an average warmth and humidity to develop and retain.....if you put your little one under the heat lamp and then he toddles off because he is hot then he is really not able to "bask"....you know what I mean? Does that make sense?

and your enclosure is absolutely beautiful.....love the little half dome hide....perfect

 

[MatrixDJ]

Usually she hangs out around the outside of the hottest area of the table. I could raise the lamp up another inch or two and see what happens. As far as the overall ambient temperature of the table, and seeing the pictures, can you think of any mods that would help and be easy and reliable to do? My overall impression is that she is trying to brumate... I very well could be wrong. But I need all options and considerations to be fixed here!! Thank you for the reply ascott, very much!! Trying to think of things for mods or maybe just build a new one

 

[GBtortoises]

I disagree that your tortoise is trying to brumate. Highly unlikely under normal indoor activity. Many people mistake the action of baby tortoises or tortoises kept too hot as brumating. Whenever considering tortoise care it's always good to first consider the species and it's requirements and then the age (size) of the tortoise. Greek tortoises can generally all be kept similar with the exception that Northern Ibera Greeks can tolerate much cooler temperatures and generally more humidity than Middle Eastern Greeks. A good ambient temperature range for normal activity is 72-82 during the daytime with a temperature directly under the strongest part of the basking light at about 95-105. This can be slightly warmer for adult Greeks, definitely no warmer than that for babies. If the basking light is a one end of the enclousure or near one corner, the heat radiating from it will create the warmer end of the enclosure. Night time temperatures should be 15-20 degrees cooler than the ambient daytime temperature. For Ibera 55-65 degrees. For Middle Eastern Greeks 60-70 degrees. In most cases a night time heat source should not be necessary. Hydration, substrate moisture and amibient humidity is important for baby Testudo of all species. I use cypress mulch for adult tortoises. Peat moss is fine, it will help retain moisture somewhat, but heat and intense light dries out peat moss rapidly if it isn't constantly rehydrated. The same goes for cypress mulch. With that combination you may have to spray the substrate at least twice daily in the areas near the heat source and saturate and churn it well a couple of times a week. Most soil base substrates will hold moisture better as well as provide good digging for the tortoise while retaining a firm enough top to allow for good stability for footing. For babies and tortoises up to about 3.5" I use a combination of approximately 60% organic potting or top soil, 30% coconut coir and the rest ground leaf litter and sphagnum (fresh peat) moss. I keep it about 2-2.5" deep, spray it twice, sometimes three times a day and saturate and churn it once a week. I also place multiple flat rocks around the enclosure and especially under the basking area. With exception of more hydration, baby Greek tortoises of all species can be kept identically to adults of the same species. It's just that everything will be in smaller proportions! What is important to always keep in mind is that babies have a much smaller body mass. Because of that they can overheat faster and dehydrate quicker. Hydration is the absolute, most important aspect to a baby Testudo species well being. I believe the same with baby tortoises of all species. Generally, baby tortoises are not going to be spending alot of time out in the open basking. They spend most of their day in hiding with short periods of exposure to bask, eat and drink. If a baby tortoise is on spending a few minutes basking, isn't eating well and is immediately retreating to a cooler hiding area the overall temperatures are probably too warm. Conversely, if a baby tortoises is spending many hours basking right under the light and not eating well the overall temperatures are probably too cool. A baby tortoise spending hours under a basking light will quickly dehydrate them. So in those cases temperature adjustments should be made.
Based on the photos, the enclosure looks somewhat dark overall. A single spotlight shining straight down usually does not illuminate enough of the enclosure to simulate an early morning or mid day sun for a tortoise. At least the early part of the day as well as through the afternoon needs to be well lit. Not necessarily every single day, but at least the majority of the week. Light intensity, duration as well as increasing temperatures is what gets a tortoise out of it's sleeping quarters and active first thing in the morning.
As far as diet, spring mix is ok, but it is comprised of just various lettuces, which have a very high water content and in most cases little else compared to wild weeds and some other greens. A wider variety of greens should be fed as well as some occasional vegetables for additional vitamins and minerals. The list of greens that are beneficial is long. The key is variety and quality. There are foods listed in various threads here on TFO as well as multiple nutrion sites on the web. Fruits should not be fed to baby Testudo species. An occasional fruit when their older is fine but is should never be a regular part of their diet.

 

[MatrixDJ]

Thank you for the extensive post GB! You are a wealth of knowledge and I appreciate that!!! From the sound of your post I need to cool the hot spot a little bit I think because I do use a 160w bulb and may be a bit to intense for her. Otherwise it sounds pretty identical to what I have. I will see how raising the light goes and then consider getting a uvb tube for extra light. How do you feel about the posts from Yvonne and AScott? My baby is an Ibera and the breeder said from the Turkey area. Would you consider that Northern Ibera?

 

[GBtortoises]

I think that the overall ambient temperatures are fine but that the basking and night time temperatures may be a bit high. Definitely add some more moisture if possible. For the most part all Ibera are considered as Northern Mediterranean species, even those from Turkey. Common names given to tortoises compared to their actual origin can often be conflicting at times!

 

[MatrixDJ]

Ok, Thank You GB. I will get rid of the heat pad then too for night time

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I think the over all ambient temp is too high. She needs a reason to bask and with the ambient temps so high she has no reason to get under the basking light. The ambient temp should be about 80 or 75 degrees, that should make her get under the basking light to warm up. The basking light should be about 95 to 100 degrees. There shouldn't be any under the tank mat to keep her warm at night unless you think she is sick. If she were mine I would soak her in strained carrots daily for about 15 minutes. I'd watch her temps very closely. She needs ambient air cooler and so basking light is 95, making that cooler also. Soak her daily in the carrots, that's baby food. That hydrates her and gives her vitamins and nutrients while she's not eating. I would also cover her habitat with foil to keep in the humidity and heat.

Spring Mix really is just a base, then you should add other dark leafy greens to it. Like collards, mustard greens, kale, turnip greens, anything like those that your local grocery has now. She needs a better diet. I would also soften some squash in the microwave, like acorn squash, in the evening and feed her using it as a bonding agent. So the 2 of you can bond.

I can't remember if we have talked about her light making sure it's not a coil light. If it is turn it off now. That's all I can think of now, I hope it helps. Please keep us posted...