Are vetches toxic?

[Moozillion]

With help from my local agriculture center, we’ve tentatively identified a weed in Elsa’s outdoor enclosure as a type of vetch. Does anyone know if vetches are toxic to tortoises?
there’s a BUNCH of it that popped up, and Elsa was chowing down in it, but I grabbed her out until I know more about it’s safety.

 

[JoesMum]

It depends according to The Tortoise Table.

 

[Moozillion]

Ok. I found out that Common Vetch (which is what I have) is a member of the bean/pea family. Most of the plant is high in protein, and fine yo feed sparingly as part of a varied diet, BUT there’s a chemical in the seeds that gets modified to cyanide by the digestive process! ?
I’ll let her eat some tomorrow- since they’re blooming, they haven’t formed seeds yet, but after tomorrow I’m ripping them all out!!!?

 

[Moozillion]

It depends according to The Tortoise Table.
View attachment 320382

Thanks!!! ??❤️

 

[Yvonne G]

It's ok while alive but turns toxic if allowed to rot.

 

[Moozillion]

It's ok while alive but turns toxic if allowed to rot.

WOW!!! ? Thanks, Yvonne! I’ll keep my eyes peeled...?

 

[RosemaryDW]

Ok. I found out that Common Vetch (which is what I have) is a member of the bean/pea family. Most of the plant is high in protein, and fine yo feed sparingly as part of a varied diet, ? BUT there’s a chemical in the seeds that gets modified to cyanide by the digestive process! ?

I don’t overly worry about that protein comment; some say it’s a holdover warning from when owners used to feed animal protein (dogfood!!??) or there was a now debunked theory on pyramiding. Clover is a legume, you know? But they are listed as okay in moderation in the Tortoise Table.

I don’t load on the protein but I we don’t have any legumes in our yard and nothing that drops seeds that she’s interested in so I actually work to get some into her diet. Fenugreek, pea shoots, different kinds of bean leaves, lupine stalks that are forming seeds. Occasionally she gets a green bean or a pea pod. The mallow I bring her in the spring has plenty of young seeds forming. She loves biting those seed heads off and I imagine they have a fair bit of protein, even if they aren’t legumes. If we look at the seeds offered from the well regarded Tortoise Supply Company only one out of eight non grass seeds they sell isn’t a legume. One! And of those seven legumes, three are listed as a NO in the Tortoise Table.

I just can’t get on board with many of the warnings in the Tortoise Table, they aren’t always (often aren’t) based on tortoise-specific research. For example I don’t believe tortoises never eat fully developed legume seeds in the wild; they need a protein source. I don’t believe that all chemical compounds are dangerous to them just because they are problematic for mammals.

I recall (I think?) you are an experienced owner who is conservative when it comes to plant safety so of course you should do whatever feels right to you. I would say the same to any owner, particularly a new one. I just like to caution on the Table’s cautions, lol. Should we only or primarily feed legumes? No, but I don’t think they should come with such severe warnings unless and until we have better research.

I’m afraid I have been posting similar information all over this week so my apologies if you’ve seen it more than once. Maybe it’s on my mind because it’s spring and plants are starting up again.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Not applicable to most of us, but a friend who bred many tortoises in Chowchilla also had dairy cows. He would sort out edible weeds and times of year that they were edible, by watching what and WHEN his cows would eat the weed. Vetch had a eating and not eating time of year. I recall it had to do with when seed heads were abundant that vetch was avoided by the cows. younger leafy plants were readily eaten by the cows. This is a Harold Carty anecdote.

 

[Moozillion]

I don’t overly worry about that protein comment; some say it’s a holdover warning from when owners used to feed animal protein (dogfood!!??) or there was a now debunked theory on pyramiding. Clover is a legume, you know? But they are listed as okay in moderation in the Tortoise Table.

I don’t load on the protein but I we don’t have any legumes in our yard and nothing that drops seeds that she’s interested in so I actually work to get some into her diet. Fenugreek, pea shoots, different kinds of bean leaves, lupine stalks that are forming seeds. Occasionally she gets a green bean or a pea pod. The mallow I bring her in the spring has plenty of young seeds forming. She loves biting those seed heads off and I imagine they have a fair bit of protein, even if they aren’t legumes. If we look at the seeds offered from the well regarded Tortoise Supply Company only one out of eight non grass seeds they sell isn’t a legume. One! And of those seven legumes, three are listed as a NO in the Tortoise Table.

I just can’t get on board with many of the warnings in the Tortoise Table, they aren’t always (often aren’t) based on tortoise-specific research. For example I don’t believe tortoises never eat fully developed legume seeds in the wild; they need a protein source. I don’t believe that all chemical compounds are dangerous to them just because they are problematic for mammals.

I recall (I think?) you are an experienced owner who is conservative when it comes to plant safety so of course you should do whatever feels right to you. I would say the same to any owner, particularly a new one. I just like to caution on the Table’s cautions, lol. Should we only or primarily feed legumes? No, but I don’t think they should come with such severe warnings unless and until we have better research.

I’m afraid I have been posting similar information all over this week so my apologies if you’ve seen it more than once. Maybe it’s on my mind because it’s spring and plants are starting up again.

Yes, I’ve had my Elsa since 2012.? I don’t worry about the protein, really, it’s the cyanide said to be produced from the digestion of the seeds/pods that worries me.??

 

[Moozillion]

Not applicable to most of us, but a friend who bred many tortoises in Chowchilla also had dairy cows. He would sort out edible weeds and times of year that they were edible, by watching what and WHEN his cows would eat the weed. Vetch had a eating and not eating time of year. I recall it had to do with when seed heads were abundant that vetch was avoided by the cows. younger leafy plants were readily eaten by the cows. This is a Harold Carty anecdote.

That makes sense; good to know!
Thanks, Will!