Anthropomorphizing or 'humanizing' tortoises and turtles

DPtortiose

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This subject recently was slightly touched discussed in another thread that was unrelated to the subject. I realize this might be a hot potato for some people, but I find interesting what people think about this issue.

I understand that I give this discussion a certain direction by referring to humanizing tortoises as an issue. But I'm pretty biased and I think it's fair to state that from the get go. I think this is an issue because thinking of animals in this fashion can lead to a number of serious husbandry problems, to name of few examples:

My tortoise/turtle is lonely. There is a fair number of people who bought two tortoise because it looked 'lonely'. This often goes all right for a couple of years if the animals are still young, but it often goes south when the animals mature. While the social 'needs' and structure of tortoises are an area we don't have too much data on. It's commonly observed that keeping pairs in small enclosure goes bad quickly and ends with an stressed tortoise at best. Or a injured or dead one at its worst. Tortoise (to my knowledge) form no lasting bounds with members of the same species, or even their own offspring for that matter.

My animal wants affection. More or less comparable to the above example, only this time the animal forms a bond with the keeper rather than another animal. Since it's unlikely that they form long-term bonds with each other, it's extremely unlikely that they form them with an human. We're a food to dispenser at best, or a large predator at worst.

My animal is happy. Perhaps the most damaging one, since it's often used to justify husbandry. People claim they do something because they can see the animal being 'happy'. Which is absolutely unfounded, since we have no way of actually measuring if an animal is 'happy'. I'm not refuting that an tortoise can be happy or not (though I've not read anything that suggests they are capable of this emotion), I am stating however that is impossible to tell. I'm not aware of any scientific study that gives certain objective indicators that an animal is 'happy'. Nor can the observations of a single keeper be called 'objective', especially when looking for an already extremely subjective emotion as 'happiness'. It’s simply untrue that suggesting your animal is happy, is meaningful in any way to support an statement. The amount of people who claim their reptile is happy while it suffers from serious health issues is staggering. I’ve seen keepers claiming that their lizard is very happy being petted while showing extreme signs of being stressed. It only cements a possible improper husbandry standard and prevents people from researching proper husbandry guidelines, articles or study's.

Do I think there is no room for emotion in our hobby? Not at all, but it should be an individual (human) experience. Not one that is projected onto an animal that stops rational and objective research. I do get why people tend to project feelings on to an animal. Humans possess a great capacity for empathy, that allows us to function properly in our society. It's natural that we form bonds with other beings, including other species and it's not bad quality to have. But anthropomorphizing an animal can be dangerous for the animal, since they simply don't have the same needs as humans. So I rather talk about healthy animal (something we do have indicators for), then 'happy' animal.

I'm very curious what other people opinions are on this subject. Are we perhaps projecting to much onto our animals and does this have negative effects?
 

Kapidolo Farms

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Anthropomorphic means a couple of things, both are irrational.

1) to ascribe human (purely human) characteristics to an animal. All life shares some characteristics, so no point in getting to caught up in that. As we break living things into these groups or those groups we end up building a phylogeny. If we look at purely human characteristics and we see them in the animal, well they are not "purely" human characteristics any more. They are general characteristics shared by this species and that species.

2) to ascribe super human characteristic to animals. A witches familiar, like a cat that can listen to human speech and report back to the witch what was said. Not a believer in this kind of thing. I do believe animals and people can communicate, and even emot to each other. But that's a bit different. And it can work in both directions

Humanizing is ego-centric from a persons point of view. It's suggesting you are making the tortoise more human like. Not even going to consider that as real.

Habituated, us to the tortoise and the tortoise to us, that happens and it is a two way process. Many animals look to other individuals and other species for awareness of things going on they may not directly observe. Like cattle egrets flocking to tractors in a field, they have become habituated towards a machine, because it indicates food will be made available. Tortoises can come to sort out we provide food.

Projection: now that's what it is people do, they project onto other people, animals, inanimate objects - all kinds of attributes, so that those doing the projection can better relate to their own life.
 

Guggie

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It's not just anthropomorphizing, or "humanizing", the animals. Most people have experience with dogs and cats, which often seem to do well with a friend, get "happy", "sad" and "lonely", etc. I think that people think that torts will be similar, since they're also "pets." I know I did - I bought 2 baby Greeks in 2011. Boy was I wrong - they now live in separate habitats.

BTW - thank you spell check for helping to spell "anthropomorphizing" correctly.
 

Rue

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Some people are 'animal people' and some are not.

I've been an animal person since I can remember. I've always divided animals up into three groups. There are wild animals, food animals and pets. My interest lies in all three areas as well because I'm a biologist, I'm an omnivore and I have my pets.

Since man is on top of the food chain, I'm a firm believer that we have a responsibility to be good stewards of the earth. We're also the only animal capable of destroying our world - and smart enough, I hope, to not let it get that far. How do we do that?

It certainly helps if people have an empathy with animals instead of just seeing them as a commodity or a food source, but just like we do with everything - we have extremes. We have individuals who go out of their way to hit a turtle crossing the road for the 'fun' of it. We have individuals who think their tortoise is a reincarnated soul-mate. I'd suggest a middle ground is the best place to situate oneself.

I think a little anthropomorphizing is fine. "Happy" is fine. We can nit-pick about the meaning of the word but we often use it to connote contentment. I think we can tell if a pet animal is content (happy) or distressed (unhappy).

When I decided to get a tortoise, I also decided I am just going to have as much 'fun' with it as I want to. She is going to be my prehistoric garden gnome. If I want to get silly about her, I have given myself permission to get silly about her. At the end of the day...as long as she is well-looked after and her basic needs met, does it matter?
 

DPtortiose

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Since man is on top of the food chain, I'm a firm believer that we have a responsibility to be good stewards of the earth. We're also the only animal capable of destroying our world - and smart enough, I hope, to not let it get that far. How do we do that?

Very interesting, I'm completely on the other side of the spectrum of that philosophy. We have the responsibility to not be stewards of the earth. Our good attempts at 'fixing' the earth often does more damage (and yes, conserving nature is very much part of that) then good. The reason we destroy the earth is because we think we have that responsibility, while I think the opposite is what is necessary. But that's another very different discussion.

It certainly helps if people have an empathy with animals instead of just seeing them as a commodity or a food source, but just like we do with everything - we have extremes. We have individuals who go out of their way to hit a turtle crossing the road for the 'fun' of it. We have individuals who think their tortoise is a reincarnated soul-mate. I'd suggest a middle ground is the best place to situate oneself.

I think a little anthropomorphizing is fine. "Happy" is fine. We can nit-pick about the meaning of the word but we often use it to connote contentment. I think we can tell if a pet animal is content (happy) or distressed (unhappy).

When I decided to get a tortoise, I also decided I am just going to have as much 'fun' with it as I want to. She is going to be my prehistoric garden gnome. If I want to get silly about her, I have given myself permission to get silly about her. At the end of the day...as long as she is well-looked after and her basic needs met, does it matter?

+1 I agree, following the middle road tend to be the best place to be.

The issue I see is that the animal’s needs are jeopardized by anthropomorphizing. It's fine to get silly about your animal, but people basing husbandry guidelines on these feelings is what worries me.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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Some people are 'animal people' and some are not.

I've been an animal person since I can remember. I've always divided animals up into three groups. There are wild animals, food animals and pets. My interest lies in all three areas as well because I'm a biologist, I'm an omnivore and I have my pets.

Since man is on top of the food chain, I'm a firm believer that we have a responsibility to be good stewards of the earth. We're also the only animal capable of destroying our world - and smart enough, I hope, to not let it get that far. How do we do that?

Super anthropocentric projection. The winners in wars write the history. As we are people we write from the anthropocentric POV.

IMO "I am a biologist" does nor reconcile with " There are wild animals, food animals and pets."
 

Rue

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Super anthropocentric projection. The winners in wars write the history. As we are people we write from the anthropocentric POV.

IMO "I am a biologist" does nor reconcile with " There are wild animals, food animals and pets."

How so?

And of course I'm anthropocentric...that's a given. If anyone says they're not, well, I suggest they rethink how that can even be.
 

lisa127

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I think it depends on the animal. Since we are talking tortoises I think "humanizing" is a bit silly. They are wild animals who act on instinct. Humanizing dogs I am fine with to a point, if humanizing is what you want to call it. I believe dogs share many emotions with humans and also share a similar social structure.
 

mark1

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do they feel fear ? do they feel content/satisfied ? do they feel distressed/anxiety ? do they feel safe ? how about anger ? as far as trying to see the human in the animal , what about seeing the animal in the human ? imo , we have some pretty primitive emotions ourselves .......... not to offend any creationist , we'll just agree to disagree on that one ..........
 

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When I say Charlie seems happy, I really mean "content," I guess. I don't intend to anthropomorphize. I know logically that animals aren't human. I think that it is difficult to not view animals from a human point of view.

We can't know what they are thinking or why they do some things. All we can do is try to interpret and that is obviously going to be biased by our human perspective. For example, whenever I go outside where Charlie is, he comes over to me. I could interpret that as being curious or friendly. He doesn't appear aggressive but since torts don't necessarily show aggression in a manner we can easily interpret, he could be. Lately, I've been wondering if he comes over to make sure I know that I'm in his territory, just gently reminding me who's boss. I feel like I'm in a foreign country where I can't communicate. I have no idea what he is thinking, but I sure wish I had a clue so I could modify my behavior.

I have seen human-like emotions and behaviors in my dog. I remember when we were at a lake and my children were being timid about getting in the water, he jumped in and swam around in circles. It certainly looked like he was showing off. Other times, like when he stumbled or fell, he really looked embarrassed. I always knew they exhibited affection, but I was surprised to see pride and embarrassment.
 

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I agree with Big Charlie. I believe that animals can have human-like emotions. I can tell when my tortoise is angry, pouting, happy, or excited. However, I do not believe than animals posses a soul. Sure, my pet seems to "know" when she's being bad... but she doesn't have the brain capacity to choose a religion or consider someone else before herself. (Though dogs seem to consider other people first!) ;) And by the way, "Rue", the tortoise in your profile picture has a very pretty shell! I'm new to the forum and, if you don't mind my asking, what kind of tortoise is he/she? Thanks!
 

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GingerLove: Thank you! :) "She" is an Eastern Hermann's.
 

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do they feel fear ? do they feel content/satisfied ? do they feel distressed/anxiety ? do they feel safe ? how about anger ? as far as trying to see the human in the animal , what about seeing the animal in the human ? imo , we have some pretty primitive emotions ourselves .......... not to offend any creationist , we'll just agree to disagree on that one ..........

I say yes to all.
 

Tom

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I have no way of knowing if my tortoises are "happy" as they march around their enclosures conducting their daily tortoise business. What I DO know is that watching them makes ME happy. :)

Great post and great topic DP. I hope this discussion will lend some insight to people with varying backgrounds.
 

enchilada

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'humanizing' tortoises and turtles
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Alexio

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I agree with you dp. Trying to project feelings onto creatures without accurately being able to understand how they truly "feel" is very dangerous.

I was also a victim with this once. My girlfriend and i have a red eared slider. Since we were both gone at work most of the day, when I would get home every day she would be intently swimming at me in the tank following me back and forth almost jumping out of the water begging for food. So I felt guilty because I was at work all day and I felt like to remedy my guilt that she would be happy if we got her a friend.

So my girlfriend and i went down to the pet store to buy a larger tank and another red eared slider.
In a great twist of irony that is not lost upon me at all, the man who happened to be helping us at the pet store told us that red eared sliders were very territorial and could be extremely violent and aggressive with other smaller turtles in their tank. So we ended up getting a larger tank and no second turtle on his advice. BUT the guy did say that I should look into getting Tortoises if I wanted to keep two or three together. He said he had three himself and he just loved watching them "bulldoze" each other by putting their heads together and pushing each other around the enclosure. He also mentioned a few other signs of subtle tortoise aggression which I unknowingly though were also very cute sounding and now I was enamored with the idea of getting a trio of tortoises as well.

Well short story long i was only able to acquire one tortoise... at first. Before I'd got the second one I had found this forum and kinda squashed the trio of tortoises idea.

I guess this is where I come full circle and say I do not believe that turtles, tortoises and really any animal at all does not have emotions, they have instincts.

Instincts are what have kept tortoises alive for thousands of years. Its very likely there were turtles and tortoises of some kinds in the time of the dinosaurs long before humans existed and invented the concept of emotions.

What is an emotion to a human? What one person may perceive as happiness could actually be anxiety. And how do you feel when you feel happy? Do you feel like I feel when I feel happy?

A tortoise knows that if it is provided warmth, moisture, and nutrition, then in will survive.

Surviving is all any animal is programmed to go. They do not feel the need to ascribe to "more" in life. Humans seek out meaning and worldly pursuits to engage their minds because a sedentary farming lifestyle and technologies have given rise to a society in which humans (which are also animals) no longer have to hunt or gather to provide for nutrition or seek out shelters from bad weather. Since we no longer have to try to meet our most basic needs we have time to sit around and ponder our own existence and ascribe to do more than just pick apples off a tree or forage for mushrooms. Humans don't really have " emotions" either. It's just what we are choosing to call the different combinations of electrical signals our brains are receiving .

I'm sorry this got kinda long and preechey and somewhat derailed.

I guess in summary: tortoises and humans operate on instincts and not emotions. Tortoises instincts are somewhat more primitive than humans. When a tortoises needs are being met they are assured that they will continue to survive . What people perceive as happiness and affection is the tortoises instincts telling it that you the large mass standing over it are its best chance as survival. Or if it does not feel this way, that the large mass is a threat that would give rise to the other " emotions" like fear and anxiety.
 

mark1

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I guess this is where I come full circle and say I do not believe that turtles, tortoises and really any animal at all does not have emotions, they have instincts.

Instincts are what have kept tortoises alive for thousands of years. Its very likely there were turtles and tortoises of some kinds in the time of the dinosaurs long before humans existed and invented the concept of emotions.

What is an emotion to a human? What one person may perceive as happiness could actually be anxiety. And how do you feel when you feel happy? Do you feel like I feel when I feel happy?

A tortoise knows that if it is provided warmth, moisture, and nutrition, then in will survive.


I guess in summary: tortoises and humans operate on instincts and not emotions. Tortoises instincts are somewhat more primitive than humans. When a tortoises needs are being met they are assured that they will continue to survive . What people perceive as happiness and affection is the tortoises instincts telling it that you the large mass standing over it are its best chance as survival. Or if it does not feel this way, that the large mass is a threat that would give rise to the other " emotions" like fear and anxiety.

you really need to understand what an emotion is ............. animals most certainly have emotions , the higher the intelligence , the more complex the emotions .....to think they don't is to not understand what an emotion is .......... how is it you know what a tortoise knows ?
 

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