Animal protein source for my Redfoot and my MEP

jsheffield

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Today was "Animal Protein Tuesday" for my omnivorous tortoises (a Redfoot Tortoise and a Black Mountain Tortoise).

They get animal protein once a week, and although I've tried lots of different options, I think this one is a keeper... Instinct Raw Signature is a raw dog food that is 95% meat and organs and bone, and 5% fruits and veggies and other wholesome ingredients; it's never cooked and is minimally processed.

Ingredients: Beef, Beef Liver, Beef Kidney, Ground Beef Bone, Beef Spleen, Beef Heart, Carrots, Butternut Squash, Apples, Ground Flaxseed, Montmorillonite Clay, Dried Kelp, Broccoli, Cod Liver Oil, Salt, Salmon Oil, Apple Cider Vinegar, Vitamin E Supplement, Dried Chicory Root, Blueberries

The pet store that I got it from had a sale on the medallions, so that's what I bought; they're essentially 1oz sliders, and my torts love them.
 

ZEROPILOT

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Today was "Animal Protein Tuesday" for my omnivorous tortoises (a Redfoot Tortoise and a Black Mountain Tortoise).

They get animal protein once a week, and although I've tried lots of different options, I think this one is a keeper... Instinct Raw Signature is a raw dog food that is 95% meat and organs and bone, and 5% fruits and veggies and other wholesome ingredients; it's never cooked and is minimally processed.

Ingredients: Beef, Beef Liver, Beef Kidney, Ground Beef Bone, Beef Spleen, Beef Heart, Carrots, Butternut Squash, Apples, Ground Flaxseed, Montmorillonite Clay, Dried Kelp, Broccoli, Cod Liver Oil, Salt, Salmon Oil, Apple Cider Vinegar, Vitamin E Supplement, Dried Chicory Root, Blueberries

The pet store that I got it from had a sale on the medallions, so that's what I bought; they're essentially 1oz sliders, and my torts love them.
My RF group would be envious.
 

ZenHerper

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Great foods. Not always easy to find these days as folks over-stock their freezers.

Online:




These are also convenient:
 

Kapidolo Farms

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I'll figure you all know that 'protein' is the collective noun for the molecules known as amino acids. The source, animal, vegetable, or fungus has not been shown to be different in term of imparting nutrition. What is different is all the other 'stuff' that comes with the source at the food level, not molecular. That is the fats, the oils, etc. All species of tortoise do eat animals as food, but the actual frequency and amount is, based on the limited published accounts, much lower than you 'protein day' tortoise feeders, who use higher order animal based proteins. The most common 'other', not plant based protein is insects, worms, snails/slugs. Insects have chitin, the second most numerous organic molecule on earth, followed by lignin - both of which end up being indigestible 'fiber'. Snails have the calcium rich shell. You might notice if you use enclosed enclosures the ammonia odor when you feed higher order animals for animal based protein foods. Otherwise their feces smell like rotting plant matter.

A few plants have all the amino acids considered essential, at least for humans and most mammals, fish, birds, so likely reptiles too. These plants include alfalfa, clovers, vetch, fenugreek, mulberry, moringa, grapevine to list a few.

Physiologically some of the differences in animal digestive systems are their length. Carnivores have short fast digestive tracks, while herbivores have longer slow digestive tracks. The speed for processing and length have a few advantages for each type of consumption. If higher order animal protein sits in the gut too long it rots, putrifies and causes disease and disruption of the normal gut microbiome.

Consider to offer a smaller portion, more frequently if you're going to feed higher order animal protein, or use worms , insects etc. Like if you were to feed yourself - you don't eat a high meat meal once a month for balanced protein intake. A smaller portion more frequently is more appropriate.
 

jsheffield

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I'll figure you all know that 'protein' is the collective noun for the molecules known as amino acids. The source, animal, vegetable, or fungus has not been shown to be different in term of imparting nutrition. What is different is all the other 'stuff' that comes with the source at the food level, not molecular. That is the fats, the oils, etc. All species of tortoise do eat animals as food, but the actual frequency and amount is, based on the limited published accounts, much lower than you 'protein day' tortoise feeders, who use higher order animal based proteins. The most common 'other', not plant based protein is insects, worms, snails/slugs. Insects have chitin, the second most numerous organic molecule on earth, followed by lignin - both of which end up being indigestible 'fiber'. Snails have the calcium rich shell. You might notice if you use enclosed enclosures the ammonia odor when you feed higher order animals for animal based protein foods. Otherwise their feces smell like rotting plant matter.

A few plants have all the amino acids considered essential, at least for humans and most mammals, fish, birds, so likely reptiles too. These plants include alfalfa, clovers, vetch, fenugreek, mulberry, moringa, grapevine to list a few.

Physiologically some of the differences in animal digestive systems are their length. Carnivores have short fast digestive tracks, while herbivores have longer slow digestive tracks. The speed for processing and length have a few advantages for each type of consumption. If higher order animal protein sits in the gut too long it rots, purifies and causes disease and disruption of the normal gut microbiome.

Consider to offer a smaller portion, more frequently if you're going to feed higher order animal protein, or use worms , insects etc. Like if you were to feed yourself - you don't eat a high meat meal once a month for balanced protein intake. A smaller portion more frequently is more appropriate.
Thanks Will!

I may switch to smaller portions 2-3 times a week instead of once weekly.

Jamie
 

MEEJogja

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I wasn't sure @Kapidolo Farms would approve until I saw a similar thread at the bottom of this one, where it sounds like occasional boiled eggs get a thumbs up? It is very common here to give Manouria Emys boiled quail eggs with the shell on. This was also recommended by the vet that microchipped my torts. I happen to love quails eggs and my partner cooks them for me all the time. I have tried them with my torts once or twice and they get picked out of the tort salad before even the fruit and gobbled right down with the shell.

I assumed they contained too much fat to constitute a regular part of their diet but having done some reading today it seems that it may be something worth considering.
 

Mitch4

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I bought the PM crumbles from Kapidolo farms and my torts are not interested. They love pinky mice. How often can I offer them the mice?
 

MEEJogja

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I bought the PM crumbles from Kapidolo farms and my torts are not interested. They love pinky mice. How often can I offer them the mice?
Are you trying to straight up give them the crumbles? Try soaking in hibiscus tea and optionally setting them into a gel with other ingredients.
Mine do not eat any dry tortoise food straight up but are quite keen if soaked in hibiscus and set into a gel.
 

Mitch4

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Are you trying to straight up give them the crumbles? Try soaking in hibiscus tea and optionally setting them into a gel with other ingredients.
Mine do not eat any dry tortoise food straight up but are quite keen if soaked in hibiscus and set into a gel.
 

MEEJogja

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What do you mean by a gel?
I don't know if @Kapidolo Farms came up with this (I suspect he did) but he sells a fantastic gel kit. You are probably best off reading about it on his website but essentially you mix the layer crumbles and other good stuff with a hibiscus tea and agar agar (a natural gelatine substitute). There are some reviews on YouTube to see the process. It creates a kind of cake which the tortoises will be very keen on, despite not wanting anything to do with the component ingredients.
 

Mitch4

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I don't know if @Kapidolo Farms came up with this (I suspect he did) but he sells a fantastic gel kit. You are probably best off reading about it on his website but essentially you mix the layer crumbles and other good stuff with a hibiscus tea and agar agar (a natural gelatine substitute). There are some reviews on YouTube to see the process. It creates a kind of cake which the tortoises will be very keen on, despite not wanting anything to do with the component ingredients.
Thanks for the info. Also how often can they have pinky mice? I know it is another option for providing protein, but I’m not sure how often they can have it. Thanks.
 

Toddrickfl1

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Thanks for the info. Also how often can they have pinky mice? I know it is another option for providing protein, but I’m not sure how often they can have it. Thanks.
I feed protein about once a week. Some other options are chicken, fish, tuna, hard boiled eggs, scrambled eggs, sardines, or shrimp.
 

ZenHerper

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Thanks for the info. Also how often can they have pinky mice? I know it is another option for providing protein, but I’m not sure how often they can have it. Thanks.
You have to be sure that you are feeding honest-to-goodness stomach-full-of-milk pinkies. Pinky mice are more of a treat item...by two weeks old, the skin puts the protein:fat ratio out of balance, so you have to be careful of your source.

Boiled eggs with the shell on or sardines are both more balanced for protein and other nutrients. Or (really) newborn pinky rats...again, depends on your source and the skin-to-meat ratio.

Lean, balanced meats can be used with omnivorous species several times a week.
 

Mitch4

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Thank you for the info. I never tried the eggs (both scrambled and hard boiled) or sardines or shrimp. Sometimes I get in a rut with feeding the same things. But I also wasn’t sure how often to offer protein. I really appreciate your help.
 

Mitch4

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You have to be sure that you are feeding honest-to-goodness stomach-full-of-milk pinkies. Pinky mice are more of a treat item...by two weeks old, the skin puts the protein:fat ratio out of balance, so you have to be careful of your source.

Boiled eggs with the shell on or sardines are both more balanced for protein and other nutrients. Or (really) newborn pinky rats...again, depends on your source and the skin-to-meat ratio.

Lean, balanced meats can be used with omnivorous species several times a week.
My grandkids have the mice and they took them as soon as they were born. Is that what you mean?
 
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