Advice needed! Male Russian Tortoise -- Dehydrated (?!)

[emily11]

Hi. I'm Emily, I'm new on this thread, from Chicago-area.

I recently took in a russian tortoise from a different family in my neighborhood a couple days ago. I've been soliciting them for a while since they don't have enough resources to take care of him, so recently, they asked if I wanted him... so I took him in. I know a little about them since I've babysat one for a couple weeks and read up on them, but I'm really no expert on tortoises, but I'm willing to try. They got him from Petco, and Petco told them that he was three months old. That doesn't seem right -- He seems more like he is three.

Problem: He seems very lethargic. (He will sit where he is set for hours, not moving much). He eyes are closed (not swollen). He is extremely skinny -- we went to buy him a water dish (one of those grey ones where the tortoise can climb in and out from a ramp -- but he cant seem to get in or out by himself). I've been soaking him everyday in warm water in a sink. He will wake up some after the soak, and open his eyes for a short time, blinks super slowly, but most of the time he sleeps.

Enclosure: About 50 gallons, 75 degrees with a heat lamp that goes to 90 and I take him outside for hours to walk around and get some sun, but all he does is sleep. (I want to order a better lamp, if anyone has any recommendations?) I've changed his dirt to potting soil (read on a different thread) because the previous owner had this dry mulch like bedding that seemed really really dry... i don't know what it is but they said it was for tortoises. (what is this, and where can/should I buy more of this?)

Eating: He doesn't eat by himself but I've coaxed him to eat some romaine lettuce two days ago. (he won't eat anything else, I've uprooted our yard, provide those colorful pellet things, chopped up fruit). He has not pooped.

His name is Napoleon. I've attached pictures.

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Emily, and welcome to the Forum!

In order for a Russian tortoise to be big enough to pass the 4" rule, they are at least 5 or 6 years old. But most wild caught Russian tortoises that are in pet stores are 10 or more years old.

Your new tortoise looks pretty dehydrated (sunken eyes). Soak him in warm water daily for at least a half hour. Use a tub that he can't climb out of.

Offer him wet foods while you're trying to get him rehydrated - cucumber, aloe, opuntia, and you can spritz water over his greens.

Russian tortoises eat broad-leaf weeds and plants. You can see if he'll eat Spring Mix (you can find that in the package lettuce section of the produce section. Once you get him eating, you can slowly over time try to get a more healthy diet into him.

From Austin's Turtle Page:

Russian tortoises come from a harsh environment and are active for just a few months during the year. They come out of hibernation, and their bodies are genetically programmed to eat as much as they can until it’s time for very hot weather, during which Russians aestivate. It is very easy to overfeed a captive Russian, especially when housed indoors. In captivity, they’re awake for much longer periods and tend to get less exercise than in the wild. The best diet is a natural one that allows the tortoise to graze on various weeds and wildflowers. Outdoors during warm weather, you should try to grow plants such as dandelion, bindweed, opuntia cactus, sedum, ice plant, plantains (the weed, not the banana-like fruit known as plantain), coreopsis, hibiscus, hosta, pansy, petunia, mulberry (the leaves, not the fruit), California poppy, mallow, honeysuckle, some vetches, some clovers, Bermuda grass. It is also possible to grow many wildflowers and weeds indoors and in greenhouses so that your tortoise does not have to rely on grocery store greens, especially in winter. Anything the tortoise might graze on must be pesticide free.

If fed grocery store produce, it should be mixed into a salad and may include endive, escarole, dandelion greens, watercress, frisee, red-leaf lettuce, radicchio, shredded carrot, turnip greens (small amounts), collards (small amounts), opuntia, romaine (small amounts), and occasional pumpkin or butternut squash. The mixed salad diet is low in fiber so it is helpful to sprinkle with Bermuda grass hay that has been ground to a powder (a coffee grinder works well). Dust the food with calcium daily, and if the tortoise isn't kept outdoors in natural sunlight, also use a combination calcium-D3 product a couple of times a week. It is also helpful to keep a cuttlebone (with the back removed) in the enclosure so your tortoise can nibble on it if she or he feels the need for more calcium.

 

[JoesMum]

Hi. I'm Emily, I'm new on this thread, from Chicago-area.

I recently took in a russian tortoise from a different family in my neighborhood a couple days ago. I've been soliciting them for a while since they don't have enough resources to take care of him, so recently, they asked if I wanted him... so I took him in. I know a little about them since I've babysat one for a couple weeks and read up on them, but I'm really no expert on tortoises, but I'm willing to try. They got him from Petco, and Petco told them that he was three months old. That doesn't seem right -- He seems more like he is three.

Hello and welcome.

Well done for the rescue and you're right that Napoleon is no baby - he's also undoubtedly wild caught.

Problem: He seems very lethargic. (He will sit where he is set for hours, not moving much). He eyes are closed (not swollen).

Lethargy is usually caused by incorrect temperatures. Though a change of environment can scare them into hiding away too.

Daily soaks are essential for at least 30 minutes. I suggest you do it first thing in the morning in a high sided bowl that he can't see through. The water should be warm but not hot (think baby bath) and come just up over the line between the shell and the plastron.

I suggest that you read the following written by species experts working hard to correct the outdated information given by pet stores and on the internet.

Beginner Mistakes
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

Russian Tortoise Care
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/

Pictures of the enclosure and lighting will help us to help you sort this little guy out

He is extremely skinny -- we went to buy him a water dish (one of those grey ones where the tortoise can climb in and out from a ramp -- but he cant seem to get in or out by himself). I've been soaking him everyday in warm water in a sink. He will wake up some after the soak, and open his eyes for a short time, blinks super slowly, but most of the time he sleeps.

Soaking as detailed above is essential at the moment. Those reptile dishes are a tipping hazard and shouldn't be used. Get a terracotta plant saucer a little bigger than the tort and sink it into the substrate.

Food should be served on a flat rock or slate as the abrasion helps with beak maintenance.

Enclosure: About 50 gallons, 75 degrees with a heat lamp that goes to 90 and I take him outside for hours to walk around and get some sun, but all he does is sleep. (I want to order a better lamp, if anyone has any recommendations?)

Pictures will help us here. It needs to be 95F directly under the basking lamp. I'll post a lighting summary shortly.

50 gallons is too small. You need a 4'x8' enclosure for a tort this size.

You're taking a risk letting him roam free. Russians are brilliant at escape. Make him an outdoor enclosure. You only have to be distracted for a moment and he'll be gone.

I've changed his dirt to potting soil (read on a different thread) because the previous owner had this dry mulch like bedding that seemed really really dry... i don't know what it is but they said it was for tortoises. (what is this, and where can/should I buy more of this?)

Orchid compost and coco coir are frequently recommended here as they hold moisture and raise humidity. Get them from a garden store, but checks there's no added perlite or fertilisers.

Eating: He doesn't eat by himself but I've coaxed him to eat some romaine lettuce two days ago. (he won't eat anything else, I've uprooted our yard, provide those colorful pellet things, chopped up fruit). He has not pooped.

His name is Napoleon. I've attached pictures.

His diet is leafy greens. He can't digest sugars properly - they cause digestive and kidney problems - so fruit, bell pepper, tomato and carrot should only be fed very sparingly and very occasionally. (No banana it's too sugary)

He probably won't eat until he's warm enough and until he's decided to trust you.

I suggest a morning routine to help a tort learn trust:
- lights on (use a timer)
- soak
- clean up the enclosure and place food during the soak
- replace the tort and then walk away
- resist the temptation to stand and watch; you're big and intimidating at the moment.

 

[JoesMum]

Here's a lighting summary:

Your tort needs:

1. A basking lamp
This must hang vertically, not at an angle. Basking is essential to raise your tortoise's core temperature so it can digest food.

2. UVB light
Read the instructions for the source to see how close to the substrate it must be. UVB is essential so your tort can process dietary calcium and have healthy bones and shell.

Both 1 and 2 are available from the sun for those able to live outside.

UVB does not pass through glass or perspex(plexiglass) - light must be direct to be effective not through a window. Mesh screening can also interfere with UVB.

3. A minimum overnight temperature (see the care sheet for your species) and complete darkness at night to sleep.


Notes

(a) A Mercury Vapor Bulb (MVB) provides combined UVB and Basking. Alternatively you can use 2 bulbs: a tube UVB and a reflector bulb for basking (a household reflector - not low energy or halogen - from a hardware store will do the job; it's the wattage that counts)

(b) Ignore any references to UVA you may read - it's misleading marketing speak.

(c) Compact coil UVB harms tortoise eyes and must not be used.

(d) Basking and UVB should be on a timer so the light(s) are on for 12 hours a day. Temperature under the basking is regulated by its height above the substrate.

(e) Overnight, depending on your home, you may need additional heat. You get this from a CHE (Ceramic Heat Emitter) which must be on a thermostat.

(f) Torts have outstanding colour vision and love red and purple food. Coloured heat lamps colour tank decor and torts don't always apply intelligence to what they eat, resulting them in eating tank decor. Coloured bulbs should not be used.


Measurements

There are 4 important temperatures that you must know for an indoor enclosure.
- Directly under the basking lamp
- Warm side
- Cool side
- Overnight Minimum

You will need digital thermometers for accuracy.

A temperature gun thermometer (inexpensive from Amazon) measures temperature accurately in specific places like directly under the basking lamp.

A min/max thermometer so you know the min/max temperatures in your home by day and night.

You should also get a good digital probe hygrometer to measure humidity.

Thermometers and hygrometer that stick to the side of the enclosure tend to be less accurate.

 

[JoesMum]

Here's a list of suitable greens

Look them up on The Tortoise Table Plant Database if you're not sure what they look like.
http://thetortoisetable.org.uk/site/plant_database_14.asp

Mulberry leaves
Grape vine leaves
Hibiscus leaves
African hibiscus leaves
Blue hibiscus leaves
Rose of Sharon leaves
Rose leaves
Geraniums
Gazanias
Lavatera
Pansies
Petunias
Hostas
Honeysuckle
Cape honeysuckle
Leaves and blooms from any squash plant, like pumpkin, cucumber, summer squash, etc...
Young spineless opuntia cactus pads

Weeds:
There are soooooooo many...
Dandelion
Mallow
Filaree
Smooth Sow thistle
Prickly Sow thistle
Milk thistle
Goat head weed
Cats ear
Nettles
Trefoil
Wild onion
Wild mustard
Wild Garlic
Clovers
Broadleaf plantain
Narrow leaf plantain
Chick weed
Hawksbit
Hensbit
Hawksbeard

 

[emily11]

Thanks so much for your help Yvonne and JoesMom! As a followup, I found a dehydration recipe on the forum (here: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/soaking-and-rehydration-benefit-and-a-recipe.33012/) -- I cut the sugar and diluted it a bit, and it seemed to help him a lot! He woke up and stretched out his neck and looked and turned around a couple of times! I'm so so so relieved.

Per the advice here, I went and got some clover, hosta, and dandelion from the garden. He took a bite of each and now he's just sitting on them, napping again. (No wonder he doesn't eat the pellets!) How much is over-feeding?

Sorry, what I meant by "outside" was on the deck. It is enclosed by a three feet railing all around, about 10 feet by 10 feet. I would house him there but I'm worried about the winter.

4ft by 8ft! What container do you use to get something so large?

I'm swapping the potting soil for coco coir since we have some. I'll send pictures when that's done.

For light, is something like this right?
https://www.amazon.com/Zoo-Med-Aquatic-Turtle-Lighting/dp/B00CYDEARU

 

[emily11]

Also, curious: how do you know he is wild caught?

 

[MPRC]

Also, curious: how do you know he is wild caught?

Simply put, almost all Russians in the US are wild caught. They are usually stressed and full of parasites. As long as people keep buying them chain stores will keep ripping them out of their habitats.

 

[JoesMum]

Simply put, almost all Russians in the US are wild caught. They are usually stressed and full of parasites. As long as people keep buying them chain stores will keep ripping them out of their habitats.

Not all. But all the pet store ones are. You can also tell from the wear and tear on the shell. Captive bred are much smoother.

It would be worth getting a fresh poop sample to a vet, when he eventually does one, to check for worms. You don't need to take the tort, just the poop.

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

Hello, Emily, and a very warm welcome to Tortoise Forum to you and Napoleon.

 

[MPRC]

Not all. But all the pet store ones are. You can also tell from the wear and tear on the shell. Captive bred are much smoother.

It would be worth getting a fresh poop sample to a vet, when he eventually does one, to check for worms. You don't need to take the tort, just the poop.

I should have clarified that I mean 'from pet stores' - There are plenty of wonderful caring breeders as well.

 

[GingerLove]

He's cute, I've got a Russian as well! I'd recommend using coconut coir, feeding him pumpkin or aloe plant as it sounds like he's constipated (which makes them lethargic.) I would also recommend buying eye drops. Continue soaking him, that'll help a lot! You might even want to try misting him with a squirt bottle on occasion as it sounds like he's very dry. Great job helping this little fellow, I hope you can get him well again!

 

[GingerLove]

I also just noticed white spots on his shell. Could you post some pictures focused on those areas? It might just be past damage, but it could also be shell rot. And welcome to the forum, by the way!

 

[Gillian M]

Hi. I'm Emily, I'm new on this thread, from Chicago-area.

I recently took in a russian tortoise from a different family in my neighborhood a couple days ago. I've been soliciting them for a while since they don't have enough resources to take care of him, so recently, they asked if I wanted him... so I took him in. I know a little about them since I've babysat one for a couple weeks and read up on them, but I'm really no expert on tortoises, but I'm willing to try. They got him from Petco, and Petco told them that he was three months old. That doesn't seem right -- He seems more like he is three.

Problem: He seems very lethargic. (He will sit where he is set for hours, not moving much). He eyes are closed (not swollen). He is extremely skinny -- we went to buy him a water dish (one of those grey ones where the tortoise can climb in and out from a ramp -- but he cant seem to get in or out by himself). I've been soaking him everyday in warm water in a sink. He will wake up some after the soak, and open his eyes for a short time, blinks super slowly, but most of the time he sleeps.

Enclosure: About 50 gallons, 75 degrees with a heat lamp that goes to 90 and I take him outside for hours to walk around and get some sun, but all he does is sleep. (I want to order a better lamp, if anyone has any recommendations?) I've changed his dirt to potting soil (read on a different thread) because the previous owner had this dry mulch like bedding that seemed really really dry... i don't know what it is but they said it was for tortoises. (what is this, and where can/should I buy more of this?)

Eating: He doesn't eat by himself but I've coaxed him to eat some romaine lettuce two days ago. (he won't eat anything else, I've uprooted our yard, provide those colorful pellet things, chopped up fruit). He has not pooped.

His name is Napoleon. I've attached pictures.

View attachment 186798 View attachment 186799 View attachment 186800

A very warm welcome to the forum!

Please read the "Beginners Mistakes" Thread and the care sheet on Russian torts, and keep in mind that daily soaks are VERY important for torts: these soaks avoid dehydration and pyramiding.

 

[emily11]

Thanks for all the warm welcomes. You guys are all such friendly, helpful people

Here are some pictures of Napoleon's shell, @GingerLove

And look! Napoleon seems more awake! Although he still sleeps all the non-bathing times :/

Here's his enclosure. I know it needs some renovations and to be bigger which will take a while but if you see any glaring errors... please let me know. There's usually more substrate in it but i didn't fill it in yet so you can see what is on the bottom

Another question: the heat lamp I had earlier broke. The new one (from above) is on order, but is there anything I can use to substitute while I wait? I was thinking a Halogen desk lamp but I'm scared that it will hurt him.

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

Hell Emily

 

[emily11]

Hell Emily
View attachment 186932

Awww thanks!!!! That's very cute <3

 

[GingerLove]

The shell looks like it got chipped in the past, I don't think it's shell rot, so that's good! And he does look much more awake! You're on the road to success!!!

 

[emily11]

The shell looks like it got chipped in the past, I don't think it's shell rot, so that's good! And he does look much more awake! You're on the road to success!!!

Whew! I'm so glad it's not shell rot I've been worried about that. Will the chips heal eventually?

 

[JoesMum]

Whew! I'm so glad it's not shell rot I've been worried about that. Will the chips heal eventually?

Chips don't go away any more than a chip in your furniture will go away.

Future wear and tear will smooth them off a bit, but basically they're just normal 'character'