A Recurring Issue

[jaizei]

Whatever happened to our idea here on the forum that everyone, and that means EVERYONE, is allowed to have their own opinion. Boah has an opinion, AK (don't know his name ) has an opinion, I have many opinions. We, NONE of us, have to prove our opinions. So if Tom believes that it is bad to mix species, he is allowed to have that opinion and he doesn't have to offer proof. That's what we've always stressed here on the forum. "Please feel free to state your opinion." What's so wrong with saying, "Ok, Tom, I see that you really believe that it is bad to mix species. I accept that that is your opinion. Personally, I don't agree with it and my opinion is that it is perfectly fine to mix species." End of story. Why this big debate?

Tom has asserted that it isn't merely his opinion but based on facts. Facts require proof.

I have no problem accepting Tom's opinion as Tom's opinion. I have a problem accepting Tom's opinion as fact without proof, even though it seems that there are many here that are more than willing to do so.

 

[Yvonne G]

So you feel that by showing us little Johnny (I'm too lazy to go back and spell it right) and the outlet, Tom was saying, "My way or the highway?" In that case, Tom, you have invited the dispute.

 

[Tony the tank]

My personal thought would be the way this "difference of opinion" was taken out of the thread it started in and then posed the way it was in the opening post of this thread.... but that it just my own thought as to why this debate happened the way it did.

My thoughts exactly Jacqui...It did seem a little condescending....But let me add a disclaimer "This is just my opinion"

 

[Lulu]

Because the issue was initially presented as "a failure to follow my (Tom's) advice is akin to sticking a knife repeatedly into an electrical outlet," without even a reference to a specific issue on which the advice was provided. The specific opinion that species should not be mixed seems to be a perfectly reasonable opinion, but I don't feel that the failure to follow Tom's advice is, in general, akin to shoving a knife in an electrical outlet, nor do I feel that level of alarm over those that do mix species. In short, I don't think it's a knife in an electrical outlet kind of issue.

 

[Redstrike]

Because the issue was initially presented as "a failure to follow my (Tom's) advice is akin to sticking a knife repeatedly into an electrical outlet," without even a reference to a specific issue on which the advice was provided. The specific opinion that species should not be mixed seems to be a perfectly reasonable opinion, but I don't feel that the failure to follow Tom's advice is, in general, akin to shoving a knife in an electrical outlet, nor do I feel that level of alarm over those that do mix species. In short, I don't think it's a knife in an electrical outlet kind of issue.

I like this, astute and concise.

I just wanted to present some supporting evidence backing Tom's, and many others opinions (including myself), on why housing various species together may not be a good idea. I fully endorse the forum's open-minded stance on sharing all opinions and hope my responses were not oppressive to any sides of this conundrum.

 

[dmmj]

In my opinion fire is hot.

 

[Redstrike]

In my opinion fire is hot.

Haha, nicely played!

 

[lynnedit]

In my opinion fire is hot.

Now THAT I understand.
And the FACT that pretty much everything on this forum is an OPINION.

 

[nikki0601]

What about aquatic turtles, I never really thought about it especially just mixing sliders together, different subspecies, but when I got my Peninsula Cooter she was housed with red ear sliders, I got one of the sliders she was housed with too, I have always kept them together but would never put anything else in with them, not even the same species or ever put anything else in with my yellow bellies, I just keep the ones together that were hatched together and have always been together.. When it comes to my water turtles they stay with the turtles they lived with prior to me getting them

 

[Tom]

Tom, no one is throwing out fancy debate moves to try to appear smarter than anyone else, they're merely asking for evidence to support your assertions. Without evidence, they're nothing more than opinions. You can make the case that they're opinions based on whatever years of husbandry or experience you have, but then you do open the door to requests to back that up as well.

Baoh is not making a positive assertion. You are. He is under no obligation to prove a negative. You are making an assertion. You should be able to back that up with evidence, or it is an opinion and should be qualified as such.

I have been giving you the benefit of the doubt about your first post and that the message you meant to convey was not as insulting to the intelligence and experience of the great folks in this group as it initially came across, but I'm beginning to wonder based on some of the posts that followed. For the record, I have specifically considered and discarded the advice of some on here (even yours), and specifically considered and adopted the advice of others (even Jacqui's ).

Edit: BTW, the only one I saw say the sky is falling is you... or what else was that knife in outlet analogy supposed to mean?

You are welcome to your opinion of Baoh's tactics. I do not share it.
He IS making an assertion and it is the opposite of my assertion. If I must prove mine in order for it to be credible why should the opposing side not prove theirs?
What evidence is there? What I am to show? I and others have seen tortoises die from mixing species. What shall I post as proof? Pics of dead tortoises?
I did not say the sky is falling. I said mixing species is a bad idea and it can lead to the death of one's tortoises and it can.

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My personal thought would be the way this "difference of opinion" was taken out of the thread it started in and then posed the way it was in the opening post of this thread.... but that it just my own thought as to why this debate happened the way it did.

For the record: This thread is, and was, just what the title stated. It was meant in a general sense. It is a concept that I experience regularly and it frustrates me. I did not bring the debate about the other thread here, BUT I don't mind that it made it here. I did not want it cluttering the other person's thread, and I rather enjoy discussing tortoise issues with tortoise people. I'm about to start a "mixing species" poll and continue the discussion outside of this thread.

For those who want proof that mixing species is a bad idea: We all agree that there are no studies done on this (I think we agree), so what can I post as proof? My word is not carrying any weight with some people, other people's word in agreement with me is carrying no weight, I don't have or know where to find studies on this, I am not going to do another long term experiment on this to prove my point, so what is it that I can show to lend my assertion some credibility?

 

[Zamric]

I dont think you need a full intence, on going experiment...Look for the worst offenders of mixing differant species and check the general health of the population....this would be any large chain petstore hold facilities... now we just need to get INTO these facilities.... any ideas?

 

[Lulu]

You could just say that, in your opinion and experience, mixing species is not a good idea, and not liken it to sticking a knife in an outlet with nothing to back it up except your opinion and experience. People could then be free to adopt or discard your opinion based on your words or their respect for your background or experience.

Dismissing people who choose a different way than you as children who don't know better than to stick knives in outlets is pretty darned insulting, and doing so does not add in any way to the credibility or reliability of what you are saying. In essence your argument boils down to "trust me or you're stupid." Are you not able to see that?

 

[Tom]

You could just say that, in your opinion and experience, mixing species is not a good idea, and not liken it to sticking a knife in an outlet with nothing to back it up except your opinion and experience. People could then be free to adopt or discard your opinion based on your words or their respect for your background or experience.

Dismissing people who choose a different way than you as children who don't know better than to stick knives in outlets is pretty darned insulting, and doing so does not add in any way to the credibility or reliability of what you are saying. In essence your argument boils down to "trust me or you're stupid." Are you not able to see that?

Two points: This post was not about mixing species. Its about people ignoring the obvious. This has happened many times and most of the time it has nothing to do with tortoises. This does not mean that mixing species and ignoring people who say that they have seen fatalities as a result, does not fall into this category in my mind, but still the OP was a general statement. I was not pointing a finger at anyone in particular and insinuating "trust me or you are stupid".

Second point: I have no problem with people doing things differently than me. In fact when they get good results, I promote their methods and show them to others as alternatives to my way of doing things. Doing something that could very well kill tortoises and passing it off as okay, is not just "choosing a different way", it is potentially harmful. This is the only reason that I make such a big deal about doing it. If I was doing something that you knew first hand was bad for tortoises, would you not point it out? Then we could discuss why we see this issue differently. I would not insult you or try to belittle you or try to dazzle the audience with fancy terms. I would not ask you to produce documents that don't exist and insinuate that you are a liar, or somehow incompetent because you cannot produce said documents. If you Renee, said to me, "Tom, I have seen such and such with my own eyes." I would believe you. If others chimed in and supported your statements I would believe them too. I would also consider your motive. "What does Renee gain from trying to convince me of this?" This is not about two different, but harmless styles of keeping tortoises, this is about discouraging others from engaging in potentially harmful housing practices.

 

[ascott]

I'm going to use wild ungulates in North America as an example. I'm from Maine, and before the colonial times (perhaps during, my history is terrible) we had woodland caribou, moose, and wolves. There were few if any white-tailed deer in our forests, perhaps tiny populations in the southern portion of the state. Once we starting logging and extirpated wolves, white-tailed deer shifted their range into all of ME, carrying with it a very common parasite: Brain worm. Brain worm lives between the brain membrane and skull cavity as well as most of the CNS in white-tailed deer, remaining relatively harmless to the host (sign of a good parasite). Eventually, eggs are cast into deer feces, where snails consume them and act as a secondary host. Deer eat the snails, perpetuating the cycle. Now, once white-tailed deer ranges started over lapping with woodland caribou, their populations crashed. Moose also weren't fairing as well, but seemed to manage okay (and still do in much of the state). The fact is, brain worm did not evolve with Moose or woodland caribou and rather than maintaing a stasis with them, they bore into the brain and CNS tissues, killing the host. Woodland caribou are now extirpated (locally extinct throughout Maine) and moose with brain worm are put down every year.

I don't want to come across the wrong way here, or sound too aggressive, but if you want facts, this is an axiom in all biology: parasites and diseases from different species can be devastatingly lethal when introduced to a novel host. This is a fact
Housing multiple species together is not a good idea.

What a beautiful example of what this thread has gone to....thank you....something valuable without it being an attack or bite at the ankle of another forum member....refreshing.

Hey Tom, you're alright with me man

There will always be people that are ticked about something in their life and when you make yourself available they will seek you out with their red paint and paint brush ....wait for you to turn your back and start painting in circles.....we all know what we know by our personal experience and common sense... (no matter 1 year to 30 years tortoise/reptile experience, actually in the reality of the lifespan of a tortoise these numbers are but a drop in the bucket of relativity, oh wait....IMHO that is, as always--Oh and I am not providing proof of **** here, so don't bother)

I do have to say that I am amused by what small thing will **** the village off though....very amused....have a great night all

 

[jaizei]

You could just say that, in your opinion and experience, mixing species is not a good idea, and not liken it to sticking a knife in an outlet with nothing to back it up except your opinion and experience. People could then be free to adopt or discard your opinion based on your words or their respect for your background or experience.

Dismissing people who choose a different way than you as children who don't know better than to stick knives in outlets is pretty darned insulting, and doing so does not add in any way to the credibility or reliability of what you are saying. In essence your argument boils down to "trust me or you're stupid." Are you not able to see that?

Two points: This post was not about mixing species. Its about people ignoring the obvious. This has happened many times and most of the time it has nothing to do with tortoises. This does not mean that mixing species and ignoring people who say that they have seen fatalities as a result, does not fall into this category in my mind, but still the OP was a general statement. I was not pointing a finger at anyone in particular and insinuating "trust me or you are stupid".

Second point: I have no problem with people doing things differently than me. In fact when they get good results, I promote their methods and show them to others as alternatives to my way of doing things. Doing something that could very well kill tortoises and passing it off as okay, is not just "choosing a different way", it is potentially harmful. This is the only reason that I make such a big deal about doing it. If I was doing something that you knew first hand was bad for tortoises, would you not point it out? Then we could discuss why we see this issue differently. I would not insult you or try to belittle you or try to dazzle the audience with fancy terms. I would not ask you to produce documents that don't exist and insinuate that you are a liar, or somehow incompetent because you cannot produce said documents. If you Renee, said to me, "Tom, I have seen such and such with my own eyes." I would believe you. If others chimed in and supported your statements I would believe them too. I would also consider your motive. "What does Renee gain from trying to convince me of this?" This is not about two different, but harmless styles of keeping tortoises, this is about discouraging others from engaging in potentially harmful housing practices.

This post was nothing more than a very thinly attack on any/everyone who doesn't equate your opinion with fact. 'Mixing species' is just the latest example of this. Your posts have all been condescending, insulting and egotistical. Rather than dazzle the audience with fancy terms, you try to dazzle with your 'experience.' Why don't you start name dropping, have you spoken with Fife lately? Whats his your opinion?

The only person responsible for my tortoises is me. Therefore, I acquire as much information as possible and then make an informed decision. "Because Tom said so" doesn't cut it. Don't you often post about how you used to listen to the 'experts' and they said to keep sulcatas & leopards dry? How did that work out for you? They had the experience. There are quite a few care sheets still floating around that say that these are 'desert' tortoises that are highly susceptible to RI from higher humidity. Or shell rot from being kept on wet substrate. These were backed up with anecdotal evidence from the authors. What do they gain from this? Do they just want all the pet tortoises in the world to be dry? Keeping a tortoise 'wet' is potentially dangerous, especially if someone was careless. Just like being careless with mixing species is dangerous. Mixing cb tortoises isn't the same as mixing wc tortoises. Just like keeping a tortoise warm and wet isn't the same as keeping a tortoise cool and damp.

This is fun. I can go all day and night shooting holes in your experience using your own posts. Heck, anyone can.

Take care.

It's not fair to use his words against him.

 

[Jacqui]

Guys there is such a mixture going on here, but let's try to keep the personal attacks out of it and work more on debating your opinions on the topic of this thread. It has been a very interesting thread, let's get back to that, please.

 

[Tony the tank]

This thread reminds me of what my law professor said once..

If you have the law, you pound the law,i If you have facts you pound the facts, If you have nothing..pound your chest and hope no one notices

 

[chairman]

I saw Tom's original post as a reductio ad absurdum. It seems that Tom is frustrated when he sees people engaging in activities that he views as inherently harmful. I assumed he was referencing the keeping multiple species together thing too, so I read the post as Tom thinks keeping multiple species of tortoise in the same enclosure is as dangerous as sticking a knife in an outlet, and people who don't percieve the danger just haven't been shocked yet. IMO, adding the cartoon seemed like a good way to try to keep the debate light, not as a way to demean those whose opinions differ. Adding the cartoon could also be seen as offensive, so I don't fault anyone for taking the cartoon personally either.

The appropriate way to address a reductio is to either argue that the original "absurd" argument is not absurd, or that the comparison doesn't apply to the particular situation. I have seen others post on both fronts, how placing a knife into an outlet doesn't always have to be dangerous if you have the experience/knowledge necessary to avert danger, and how mixing species is not something that should be viewed as inherently dangerous on the basis that diseases/parasites do not harm with the same certainty that electicity does. To me, I think the analogy is good as both activities are associated with a known potential for harm, and it seems that the validity of the argument is resting on the premises involved in the spread and lethality of parasitic organisms.

Folks that agree that species should not be mixed because of parasites/diseases need to recognize that correlation does not imply causation. Tortoises who lived in mixed species setups and die en masse might be dead for a reason unrelated to the pathogens they contain upon necropsy.

Folks that argue that species can be mixed because diseases/parasites don't work the way layman think they do need to remember that sometimes correlation is a result of causation, even if the root cause has not yet been identified. Exceptions do not always disprove rules and the list of diseases whose mechanics and cures are still unknown is staggering.

I, for one, I am in favor of the better-safe-than-sorry position. I have never personally mixed species and had animals die. I have never personally mixed species and had animals live. I don't mix species. I also don't make it a point to sanitize my hands between handling species, but when one tortoise species lives in the basement and the other is outside I don't exactly think about spreading things;perhaps I should. I have had tortoises of the same species die due to aggression issues that I failed to acknowledge because I thought I was paying attention to my animals too well to listen to the advice of more seasoned tortoise veterans who saw the issue through the internet. Tortoises are not snakes, but when you hear about the differences between the way boas and pythons react to IBD... those of you with a better understanding of diseases could probably provide a very good argument for why IBD is not a good example of a disease that affects multiple species within a type of animal, but it is the scary reptile disease that I think about when it comes to cross-contamination threats.

Chris, I'm trying to make sure I read the papers you posted correctly. Thematically, the Dobson article suggests that the nastiest parasitic organisms that infect animals are those that find a way to hitch a ride and mutate on carrier species, with humans being listed as a carrier species of concern? And the Holt article suggests that parasitic organisms can be lethal to species that compete for resources with their preferred host, but are more likely to be lethal to species that prey on their preferred host? If I read both correctly, it seems that my tortoises are just as likely to cross-contaminate using me as a vector as they would were they living together. And my monitor lizard, as a predator, has significantly more to worry about from my tortoise's diseases than my sulcata does from my hingebacks? (Ignoring for a moment, of course, that the sulcata is CBB and the others are WC. And that my monitor may be mostly an insectivore in the wild and probably wouldn't prey on tortoises very often. I'm talking in broad themes here, not details.)

I personally don't view the asking of husbandry questions as a sign of inexperience. I had my hingebacks living quite comfortably for years before I found this forum and the only reason I joined and looked around is because I moved from FL to IN and found myself with difficulties maintaining humidity levels. Sometimes people find themselves facing new puzzles and a forum with... um, how many thousand members now?... doesn't seem like a bad place to get input for solving them.

 

[ascott]

"opinion"? my opinion leads me to believe that this thread has gone to the crapper.....the only thing that I am getting from this thread at this point is that there are folks on here that do not like Tom, sorry Tom but kids on the playground are running a muck. I am thinking that if we all just leave them to themselves they will get bored with their banter and hopefully go do something worthwhile.

However, I think you are a big boy and can once again come on over to the playground area where the kids have learned how awesome it is to play with heart and consideration and respect....

Tom, in my humble opinion There is nothing positive to be gained here on this thread.....anything you offer up as your opinion is going to be turned into "show me proof" if this were a scientific forum that would be understandable.....so the thread has been so tainted it has become something else totally....

I am personally seeing alot of the blah blah blah....look at what degree I have and therefore what I say goes, nonsense lately.....I do appreciate someones passion for the reptile, but also appreciate someone saying what they have to say and not starting such crap as happened here..oh wait, let me put in my disclaimer, IMHO that is.

Actually I learned along time ago those that accuse are likely the sad, pathetic culprit themselves.....once more, IMHO that is.

 

[Baoh]

Your level of understanding of debate techniques is of no interest to me and your subtle, cleverly worded slights have not gone unnoticed. I have tried to be mature and civil with you, but you continue try and out-word me. Please put the debate handbook down, and stop trying to sound like you are more intelligent than everyone else.

Simply stated, because I have no scientific studies demonstrating my point, does not mean it is not correct. Frankly, I don't think that such studies exist, but if they did, and if I could find them, I would certainly present them to you. Like wise, I can produce no studies proving the existence of air, but I have no problem asserting to anyone that air exists. Similarly, I have seen many tortoise die due to mixing species. Because studies do not exist, or I cannot find them, does not make this untrue. Why do you think it is okay to dismiss what I have told you that I have personally seem. That is analogous to calling me a liar. Do you think that I have not seen these things and that I am lying? For what purpose? What do I gain from telling people not to do something that I have personally witness killing tortoises, if it is not true? Do I have an underhanded plan to segregate the tortoises of the world for my own amusement? If you want studies and research papers then YOU spend your time hunting for them. I have better things to do and searching around for info to prove you wrong is not high on my list. I don't need scientist to tell me what I already know is true because I have personally experienced it.

Rather than me repeat again that I do not know of any studies, how about we try this another way? For me to be wrong about this, it means that you must be right. In your eyes, my opinion is not valid with out indisputable scientific proof. Where is your scientific proof that tortoises from different continents CANNOT exchange diseases and become sick or die from them. If you continue to dismiss my assertions as uneducated drivel by an internet ego-maniac, then you must be sitting on loads of studies, proving me wrong. Lets see it.

Further, there is no need to go to ridiculous extremes about the "sky is falling". We are all well aware of disease transmission and which tortoises can get what and from where. What you are failing to understand, because it has not happened to you, YET, is that mixing species tremendously increases the risk of individual tortoises catching a disease or pathogen that it is not equipped to handle. I think the ungulate example illustrates this perfectly well. And I do worry about mixing aquatic species, for your information. I don't do it, and I recommend against it. I can't stop you from playing russian roulette with your own animals, but I can continue to help other people avoid the mistake that you are making.

These are not debate techniques. I am pointing out that you frequently employ logical fallacies and it would behoove you to avoid doing so when trying to present your take on things. Otherwise, you fail to comply with standards of logic. Maturity and civility do not define your first post in this thread nor a number of others since. Therefore, your intentions were never meant to be mature and/or civil. This psychological defense mechanism you are using is called projection.

I do not remember any slights. Could you point them out? I can point out one of your ad hominem examples combined with a strawman misrepresentation. It would be the first post in this thread.

Studies are not the only form by which we can see verifiable data. Your say so does not meet any burden of objective evidence, however. The same goes for popular opinion.

There are studies that air exists. That is how we know what air actually is. Studies on such fundamental levels are also how we moved past "bad humors" to understand germ theory. The former was popular and everybody "knew" diseases were caused by "bad humors". We are better off, and many of us are alive today, due to brave souls who asked for more and sought substance instead of capitulating to the widely held belief that people at the time would mislabel as being fact.

You say you have seen many tortoises die due to mixing species, but if you knew this, you could furnish the evidence, as evidence is required to know this and not simply believe this. Otherwise, all you can state with accuracy is that you claim to have seen many tortoises of mixed species contact die and not that it is the mixing of species that were determined to be the root cause. That is an elementary difference between correlation and causation. I am not saying it is not the case that the situation created by the mixing of those particular different animals did not cause illness, assuming you are being honest. I am saying that, without the evidence, you can claim to believe such and assume such, but stating you know such is what we call intellectual dishonesty. You are the one shying away from backing up an assertion you have made. This may be because you lack the evidence or ability to do so. As for what is true, I believe that you believe what you espouse is true. However, you either lack or are unwilling to provide evidence supporting it. My hunch is that the former is likely the case, but I am always willing to entertain evidence to the contrary if you are willing or able to provide it.

"For me to be wrong about this, it means that you must be right."

This is a false dichotomy. Another in a string of logical fallacies you cannot seem to avoid using. Things need not be mutually exclusive in accordance to what I have stated as my take on the matter.

I never made an assertion that "tortoises from different continents CANNOT exchange diseases and become sick or die from them" if they are harboring pathogens or conditional pathogens that are subject to transmission. Feel free to show me where I stated exactly that. If I had said that, the onus would be on me to support it with evidence. However, I have not made such a claim.

"We are all well aware of disease transmission and which tortoises can get what and from where."

This is an appeal to popularity fallacy. If everyone is well aware, then everyone can specify to exact and exhaustive detail, then, which exact species can get what pathogens and from which other species. Since not all are well aware, that portion of the claim is false. Since not all pathogens in all tortoise species have been studied or tested for infectious potential in all other tortoise species, that portion of the claim is also false.

A major point I have emphasized is that if an animal is not carrying a pathogen, it cannot transmit it. This is tautological. Self-evident.

Since I respond to your questions and you seem to have missed mine, I will repost the following for you:

Which of these is carrying which specific high-mortality pathogens that are threats to which of these other species that are not threats to their own species such that there is especially grave concern that inter-specific contact is much more likely to be lethal than intra-specific contact? Name which of my tortoises are presenting high quantifiable risk to which of my other tortoises by transimitting which organisms since you are confident enough to tell me and others there is a serious risk as if fact when no such fact has been presented in this specific context.

Russian roulette is not so scary when the gun has zero bullets.

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Here I thought this was just a funny joke about a stubborn little boy.. I should of known better lol

More on the point is why would someone ever do something that has been proven to kill and make tortoises sick...maybe not by "official'" scientists but by people...real tortoise people. Why would those people continue to mix species , which is incredible unnatural, when they have been told by multiple and multiple tortoise lovers that it could possible kill the tortoises ?
I would think that people would just separate the tortoises because no one would want even the possibility of their tortoises dying... it may not be simple to just separate them when they keep many different kinds , it is a FACT that mixing species puts your tortoises more at risk of sickness and death, this fact can be disclaimed or just plain ignored so that people don't have to separate their different tortoise species and continue to keep tons of different species
In the end in though I still miss the fact of why with many, many people saying that its bad and can cause sickness and death because it has happened to them in real life the mixing would continue? It is my personal opinion that the tortoises, all animals really that someone keeps, well being should be put first, above all other things and if that can not be done then dont have the animals or get the means to put their health first and foremost otherwise its not fair to the animals. I know full well though that not everyone shares this belief and keeps as many animals as they want and how they want despite the animals needs and health

Feel free to provide high-standard evidence supporting your assertions.

What negative impacts on health have my personal practices resulted in for my tortoises? Growth, reproduction, and no symptoms of disease seem to indicate none have occurred with my animals in their specific context. Unless something is introduced, I have no more cause for concern of ex nihilo illness due to this practice than I would have reason to worry about spontaneous generation.

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Pathogens and parasites jump around (phylogenetically), tortoises aren't an exception. See attached papers.

I do not contest this. I agree and added three examples earlier in the thread.

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Whatever happened to our idea here on the forum that everyone, and that means EVERYONE, is allowed to have their own opinion. Boah has an opinion, AK (don't know his name ) has an opinion, I have many opinions. We, NONE of us, have to prove our opinions. So if Tom believes that it is bad to mix species, he is allowed to have that opinion and he doesn't have to offer proof. That's what we've always stressed here on the forum. "Please feel free to state your opinion." What's so wrong with saying, "Ok, Tom, I see that you really believe that it is bad to mix species. I accept that that is your opinion. Personally, I don't agree with it and my opinion is that it is perfectly fine to mix species." End of story. Why this big debate?

Correct. No one has the responsibility to provide evidence of their opinions. Facts are another matter.

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In my opinion fire is hot.

For illustrative purposes, it is convenient that you brought this up.

The feeling of fire being hot is perceptive, an interpretation, and is an opinion. That thermal energy is released by combustion is verifiable fact. Verifiable (factual) neurological defects can cause reversal of feelings (perceptions/opinions) of hot or cold, depending on the nature of the defect.

Whether it was to bring levity or to weigh in, thanks for the opportunity.

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What about aquatic turtles, I never really thought about it especially just mixing sliders together, different subspecies, but when I got my Peninsula Cooter she was housed with red ear sliders, I got one of the sliders she was housed with too, I have always kept them together but would never put anything else in with them, not even the same species or ever put anything else in with my yellow bellies, I just keep the ones together that were hatched together and have always been together.. When it comes to my water turtles they stay with the turtles they lived with prior to me getting them

The same biological principles are applicable, depending upon which set of practices you find reasonable. There are a great many instances of observable close-quarters mixed-species occurring without incident, although disease can potentially spread easily in both mixed and non-mixed environments. My concerns in these situations come down to population densities and levels of aggression for certain species. I am not too worried about a river cooter despite its size. I am not too worried about a Stinkpot despite its aggression. However, an adult common snapper could cause quite a bit of mechanical damage (both to members of its own as well as other species) with a combination of both qualities. For me, that would be where my risk management evaluations would be applied. Others may use different criteria.