A Recurring Issue

[Zamric]

lynnedit, I belive that is one of the wisest things i've heard on this site! But in my defence, I shoved the screwdriver into the light socket by accident... I was just trying to stop a fall by driving the screwdiver into the cieling... and missed... my brother helped me to my feet a minit or so later!

 

[nikki0601]

I know exactly what your referring to Tom, lol, which makes this post hilarious, and little johnny will continue to tell u how unscientific your comments are as he contines to jam the damn knife in the socket

 

[Tom]

J, first of all I like you and enjoy reading your posts. I did not intend to insult or offend you or anyone. Now I mean this genuinely, I really like your term "big league". Very clever and illustrative. However, I did not TRY to big league you, I DID big league you. 25 years of professional experience with ANYTHING is "big league". But please understand I did not explain my level of experience to "one up" anyone, I did it to try to illustrate that I have seen a lot of things during all that time. I could not insult you or your level of experience because I have no idea what it is. My explanation of where I've been was also an invitation for you to say what you have seen and done and for how long. I do believe here is an aspect of quality over quantity sometimes, so its not all about the number of years either.

Now I will elaborate on what I have seen in reference to the other thread. I have seen tortoises die from diseases they caught because they were housed with tortoises from other continents. Is that enough elaboration? In one case there were russians, redfoots and sulcatas all living together for a couple of years. Things were not quite right all the time, but they were alive. Within a six month period, all of them died. Necropsy revealed multiple infestations and infections not commonly seen in any of the species that had it, but commonly seen in the species they were housed with. Nobody wrote a scientific paper about it for me to quote. There really wasn't anything to write. These three species shared each other's diseases and died. Don't go getting all hung up on the details and trying to prove me wrong about this one case. I've seen it dozens of times and so has anyone else who has been around large collections of tortoises and reptiles.

My point is that the outcome of mixing species IS known and it IS bad, eventually. I don't say what I say because its just my opinion it IS based on fact. I have seen many tortoise die of foreign diseases from other species. For cryin' out loud, look at the mycoplasma infection in the CDT population. There was just a post last night where a guy admitted losing a radiated tortoise due to mixing species and he lamented that he had to learn "the hard way". If I can help it, I'd like to help some people avoid learning the hard way.

.. and just because you can stick a knife in one side of an outlet without getting shocked, does not make it smart, and does not mean it should be recommended or encouraged in others.

---

I know exactly what your referring to Tom, lol, which makes this post hilarious, and little johnny will continue to tell u how unscientific your comments are as he contines to jam the damn knife in the socket

No insult to anyone, but this made me laugh. I have an image of Jacqui, with an angry face, ramming a butter knife into the wall socket in her house and grunting... now, I can't stop laughing...

---

This is a considerable amount of passive-aggressive effort. If only as much effort was applied to providing verifiable objective evidence or answering direct and specific questions, we might then achieve greater progress.

Baoh, I mean the following respectfully and in good humor since you can't hear my tone. You are as immovable as a mountain. I know donkeys less stubborn than you.
But seriously, the next time I have a dead tortoise in my hands that was killed because someone mixed it with another species, I will mail it to you.

 

[Baoh]

Tom, not to worry. To the discerning reader, this thread says much more about the author than it does the subject.

 

[Tom]

Tom, not to worry. To the discerning reader, this thread says much more about the author than it does the subject.

Indeed it does...

Still, I want you to know that I respect your input and enjoy reading your posts too.

 

[Baoh]

Tom, not to worry. To the discerning reader, this thread says much more about the author than it does the subject.

Indeed it does...

Still, I want you to know that I respect your input and enjoy reading your posts too.

I find your penchant for the ad hominem to leave me ever so slightly less than fully convinced, but that has never been among my concerns.

 

[Tom]

Well then I will work to get you ever so slightly more convinced. Please don't mistake my disagreeing with you as a sign of disrespect. In fact when someone that I respect very little disagrees with me, I seldom take the time to elaborate or have much of a discussion with them.

Others have said it before and I agree. Many times the best info and the most learning comes out of respectful disagreements between two people. In understanding where the two people who disagree are coming from, and trying to discern why they disagree, great knowledge and insight can sometimes be found. Personally, I enjoy listening to other knowledgeable tortoise people disagree and discuss it. There are great tidbits to be had sometimes.

 

[Lulu]

I'm struggling with the analogy. What exactly are we talking about that equates to repeatedly sticking a butter knife in a light socket?

 

[Tony the tank]

I'm struggling with the analogy. What exactly are we talking about that equates to repeatedly sticking a butter knife in a light socket?

I don't know but people are throwing around some mighty big words...... ad hominem<-- great word

What ever happened to the street vernacular..

 

[Baoh]

Tom, there is no need for you to spend such energy. I am at a loss to determine why it would be important to do so, as attaining respect is not a goal I feel the need to satisfy in this context. To me, that is a non-issue.

 

[jaizei]

J, first of all I like you and enjoy reading your posts. I did not intend to insult or offend you or anyone. Now I mean this genuinely, I really like your term "big league". Very clever and illustrative. However, I did not TRY to big league you, I DID big league you. 25 years of professional experience with ANYTHING is "big league". But please understand I did not explain my level of experience to "one up" anyone, I did it to try to illustrate that I have seen a lot of things during all that time. I could not insult you or your level of experience because I have no idea what it is. My explanation of where I've been was also an invitation for you to say what you have seen and done and for how long. I do believe here is an aspect of quality over quantity sometimes, so its not all about the number of years either.

Now I will elaborate on what I have seen in reference to the other thread. I have seen tortoises die from diseases they caught because they were housed with tortoises from other continents. Is that enough elaboration? In one case there were russians, redfoots and sulcatas all living together for a couple of years. Things were not quite right all the time, but they were alive. Within a six month period, all of them died. Necropsy revealed multiple infestations and infections not commonly seen in any of the species that had it, but commonly seen in the species they were housed with. Nobody wrote a scientific paper about it for me to quote. There really wasn't anything to write. These three species shared each other's diseases and died. Don't go getting all hung up on the details and trying to prove me wrong about this one case. I've seen it dozens of times and so has anyone else who has been around large collections of tortoises and reptiles.

My point is that the outcome of mixing species IS known and it IS bad, eventually. I don't say what I say because its just my opinion it IS based on fact. I have seen many tortoise die of foreign diseases from other species. For cryin' out loud, look at the mycoplasma infection in the CDT population. There was just a post last night where a guy admitted losing a radiated tortoise due to mixing species and he lamented that he had to learn "the hard way". If I can help it, I'd like to help some people avoid learning the hard way.

.. and just because you can stick a knife in one side of an outlet without getting shocked, does not make it smart, and does not mean it should be recommended or encouraged in others.

Verifiable facts > Anecdotal evidence

On the Internet, everyone is an expert and has some anecdote to prove their point. Online, one-upmanship is the name of the game, which is why I do not feel the need to quantify my experience in terms of years. Next thing you know, we'll have someone posting about how their g-g-grandfather was on the HMS Beagle.

 

[Zamric]

... Kinda funny you should mention the HMS Beagle because my g-g-grandMOTHER.....

 

[Tom]

Well J, it IS a verifiable fact that tortoises die from catching diseases of other species. I don't have a storage file on my computer with scientific studies to show this, but it happens every day. Call a tortoise vet and ask them. Call any importer/wholesaler. I know people who have groups of tortoises in permanent quarantine because of weird diseases they've picked up that are normally found in other species. How do you want me to show you verifiable fact? There is no doctoral candidate that has done a thesis on disease spread between different species of captive tortoises, that I know of. For one thing, its too obscure a topic with too many uncontrollable variables, and for another its pretty obvious. What would be the benefit of proving it in the grand scheme of the world? Who would benefit financially from this scientific data, and therefore wish to sponsor the longterm study? The point is that like most things with tortoises and other reptiles, there is not some huge financial benefit for funding research. We are on our own. I've illustrated this point before with the pyramiding thing. Which company will get a financial benefit when we all figure out and eliminate pyramiding? None. Likewise, which company will benefit from laboratory proof that a tortoise from one continent infected a tortoise from another continent with some pathogen? It is so obvious and well known that there is just no need to "study" it.

 

[Jacqui]

.
No insult to anyone, but this made me laugh. I have an image of Jacqui, with an angry face, ramming a butter knife into the wall socket in her house and grunting... now, I can't stop laughing...

. Sorry to disillusion you, but electricity and outlets have never been of interest to me. Nor has ramming anything into holes been one. Why would I have an angry face? I have been chuckling myself over this thread and the responses to it. Perhaps in some twisted way... ummm may be I should not go with the psychology thoughts here, we seem to have a bad enough time trying to stay with Johny who you created then middle of the thread changed how he spells his name.

 

[Tom]

Oh, I was just being silly. It struck me funny.

 

[Redstrike]

J, first of all I like you and enjoy reading your posts. I did not intend to insult or offend you or anyone. Now I mean this genuinely, I really like your term "big league". Very clever and illustrative. However, I did not TRY to big league you, I DID big league you. 25 years of professional experience with ANYTHING is "big league". But please understand I did not explain my level of experience to "one up" anyone, I did it to try to illustrate that I have seen a lot of things during all that time. I could not insult you or your level of experience because I have no idea what it is. My explanation of where I've been was also an invitation for you to say what you have seen and done and for how long. I do believe here is an aspect of quality over quantity sometimes, so its not all about the number of years either.

Now I will elaborate on what I have seen in reference to the other thread. I have seen tortoises die from diseases they caught because they were housed with tortoises from other continents. Is that enough elaboration? In one case there were russians, redfoots and sulcatas all living together for a couple of years. Things were not quite right all the time, but they were alive. Within a six month period, all of them died. Necropsy revealed multiple infestations and infections not commonly seen in any of the species that had it, but commonly seen in the species they were housed with. Nobody wrote a scientific paper about it for me to quote. There really wasn't anything to write. These three species shared each other's diseases and died. Don't go getting all hung up on the details and trying to prove me wrong about this one case. I've seen it dozens of times and so has anyone else who has been around large collections of tortoises and reptiles.

My point is that the outcome of mixing species IS known and it IS bad, eventually. I don't say what I say because its just my opinion it IS based on fact. I have seen many tortoise die of foreign diseases from other species. For cryin' out loud, look at the mycoplasma infection in the CDT population. There was just a post last night where a guy admitted losing a radiated tortoise due to mixing species and he lamented that he had to learn "the hard way". If I can help it, I'd like to help some people avoid learning the hard way.

.. and just because you can stick a knife in one side of an outlet without getting shocked, does not make it smart, and does not mean it should be recommended or encouraged in others.

Verifiable facts > Anecdotal evidence

On the Internet, everyone is an expert and has some anecdote to prove their point. Online, one-upmanship is the name of the game, which is why I do not feel the need to quantify my experience in terms of years. Next thing you know, we'll have someone posting about how their g-g-grandfather was on the HMS Beagle.

Jaizei, I can understand your position with verifiable facts > Anecdotal evidence, but there are underlying (and verifiable) facts in support of Tom's stance on the deleterious results seen from multi-species housing.

I'm going to use wild ungulates in North America as an example. I'm from Maine, and before the colonial times (perhaps during, my history is terrible) we had woodland caribou, moose, and wolves. There were few if any white-tailed deer in our forests, perhaps tiny populations in the southern portion of the state. Once we starting logging and extirpated wolves, white-tailed deer shifted their range into all of ME, carrying with it a very common parasite: Brain worm. Brain worm lives between the brain membrane and skull cavity as well as most of the CNS in white-tailed deer, remaining relatively harmless to the host (sign of a good parasite). Eventually, eggs are cast into deer feces, where snails consume them and act as a secondary host. Deer eat the snails, perpetuating the cycle. Now, once white-tailed deer ranges started over lapping with woodland caribou, their populations crashed. Moose also weren't fairing as well, but seemed to manage okay (and still do in much of the state). The fact is, brain worm did not evolve with Moose or woodland caribou and rather than maintaing a stasis with them, they bore into the brain and CNS tissues, killing the host. Woodland caribou are now extirpated (locally extinct throughout Maine) and moose with brain worm are put down every year.

I don't want to come across the wrong way here, or sound too aggressive, but if you want facts, this is an axiom in all biology: parasites and diseases from different species can be devastatingly lethal when introduced to a novel host. This is a fact
Housing multiple species together is not a good idea.

 

[Baoh]

Well J, it IS a verifiable fact that tortoises die from catching diseases of other species. I don't have a storage file on my computer with scientific studies to show this, but it happens every day. Call a tortoise vet and ask them. Call any importer/wholesaler. I know people who have groups of tortoises in permanent quarantine because of weird diseases they've picked up that are normally found in other species. How do you want me to show you verifiable fact? There is no doctoral candidate that has done a thesis on disease spread between different species of captive tortoises, that I know of. For one thing, its too obscure a topic with too many uncontrollable variables, and for another its pretty obvious. What would be the benefit of proving it in the grand scheme of the world? Who would benefit financially from this scientific data, and therefore wish to sponsor the longterm study? The point is that like most things with tortoises and other reptiles, there is not some huge financial benefit for funding research. We are on our own. I've illustrated this point before with the pyramiding thing. Which company will get a financial benefit when we all figure out and eliminate pyramiding? None. Likewise, which company will benefit from laboratory proof that a tortoise from one continent infected a tortoise from another continent with some pathogen? It is so obvious and well known that there is just no need to "study" it.

Why use so many words to simply say you have no verifiable objective data?

If there are too many uncontrollable variables, then how are you controlling for them when jumping to conclusions and assigning a root cause that you assert that professionals could not in a rigorously designed study? You cannot have it both ways. Either this cannot be controlled well enough to study and, therefore, conclude, or it can.

Tortoises also may potentially die from catching diseases from the same species. The sky is falling. Let us never let them ever meet their own kind because of an unquantified risk. You can never be too safe, right? We weigh the risks and make our choices. Proselytizing based on opinion circles is not my desire. Perhaps because you want so badly to be seen as some sort of authority on the matter, it is important to you. Internet "cred" does not happen to fall within my value system.

I have captive born Aldabras, Gpps, Sulcatas, Burmese Blacks, Burmese Browns, and Western Hermann's, among others. Which of these is carrying which specific high-mortality pathogens that are threats to which of these other species that are not threats to their own species such that there is especially grave concern that inter-specific contact is much more likely to be lethal than intra-specific contact? Name which of my tortoises are presenting high quantifiable risk to which of my other tortoises by transimitting which organisms since you are confident enough to tell me and others there is a serious risk as if fact when no such fact has been presented in this specific context.

How come we do not worry to this extent regarding most aquatic turtles? Maybe the risk is not the epidemiological nightmare some make it out to be. Natural selection is a pretty nifty mechanism and tortoises have been around for a long time with lots of contact with others as well as a great many other organisms. If you had studied fibropapillomatosis, you would know that it often does not matter regarding species segregation. The green, ridley, loggerhead, and leatherback can all infect each other as well as members of their own species. The physiology is similar enough for hosting. If you wish to this is not the case in tortoises, please cite the specific physiological basis and mechanism.

Then there are all of the non-chelonian species that our tortoises come into contact with that people omit from their minds when talking about mixing species and preventing contact.

If you reply, please have the wherewithal to avoid the commonly employed fallacies of ignoring the middle, strawman, against the man, appeal to authority, and appeal to popularity.

 

[Yvonne G]

I don't have science or articles to back me up, but I still believe in not mixing species. My evidence is all anecdotal. I've been operating a turtle/tortoise rescue here in Central California for many years and have taken in sick tortoises people didn't want to have to spend money on. I've heard quite a few times about how they had a desert tortoise (or a sulcata or fill in the blank) and decided to get another tortoise to keep it company, so they got a different kind of tortoise. Now one or the other tortoise is sick, will you take it? I have to put 2 and 2 together and come up with the fact that one of these tortoises got sick from being with the other one. It was usually a sulcata/desert tortoise mix.

 

[Jacqui]

Rather then telling you all we need to stick to butter knives and electrical outlets, I am moving this entire thread. If Tom does not like it, he can say so and I will take out the original posts and move them back. However I think this discussion has gotten into some interesting, if a bit hard at time for some folks to follow, and should continue.

 

[Yvonne G]

Thank you, Jacqui. I was just wondering whether a mod needed to step in and keep everyone on target.